My abbreviated theory for the Knights Templar treasure in Nova Scotia

[ECS]

Please, Loki, tell how a mention to the Battle at Gotthard Pass in Switzerland is a direct reference to Bannockburn in Scotland?
Admitting that you "don't know" and "don't care" about several important references that you have utilized to fill out your "coconut coir premise" of Templars in Oak Island/Nova Scotia make you "evidence" as hollow as a drained coconut, and is NOT "direct evidence" of Templar presence in the New World as you continue to state.
There are several contemporary Medieval accounts of the Templars gathering at Lyon and white knight riders aiding the Swiss mountainfolk in their skirmishes and battles with the Austrian invaders, can be verified with a little actual research on your part.
As for these "white knights" being the Templars from the Lyon gathering, that, like your "coconut coir premise" is speculation, but unlike your coir claims, the "white knights" in Switzerland have "well known" contemporary documented historical references.

 

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[lokiblossom]

It would be impossible for the Templars who were based in the Eastern Mediterranean for 200 years not to have used "coconut coir" and they certainly wouldn't have thrown it away because they sailed to France.

The coir on Oak Island dated to around the 13th century, is direct evidence that they were on Oak Island for an undetermined amount of time.


Cheers, Loki

Say what you will but I still believe the coconut fibre (coir) found on Oak Island and all of it C-14 dated to between 1150 and 1374ad with error ranges around 60 to 70 years is direct evidence of a Knights Templar presence.

In an earlier (1970) identification by Dr. J.H. Soper, Chief Botanist for Canada's National Museum of Natural Sciences, he claims a positive identification of coconut fibre in 3 of the 4 samples sent him. This is evidence that the material identified and collected by laymen on the Island is not all coconut fibre leading to some later questions, such as a sample of what one tester called eel grass being C-14 tested.

Btw, Jim Soper's analysis should, by itself, be enough evidence to stand as proof of coconut fibre being found on Oak Island.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Please, Loki, tell how a mention to the Battle at Gotthard Pass in Switzerland is a direct reference to Bannockburn in Scotland?
Admitting that you "don't know" and "don't care" about several important references that you have utilized to fill out your "coconut coir premise" of Templars in Oak Island

Your reference to Gotthard Pass is an attempt at a direct reference to Bannockburn, of which has no importance either way to my premise's.

None of the events I wrote that I don't care about have anything to do with my premise's. I do premise Gerard de Villiers leading the small group that sailed from Scotland on to Nova Scotia, but all I wrote about him is that I didn't care what he did with the 50 horses he was said to be leading. Perhaps he dropped them off in Scotland!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Your reference to Gotthard Pass is an attempt at a direct reference to Bannockburn, of which has no importance either way to my premise's...

You do seem to arrive at the wrong conclusion very often when presented with information contrary to your "coconut coir premise" is presented.

 

[lokiblossom]

You do seem to arrive at the wrong conclusion very often when presented with information contrary to your "coconut coir premise" is presented.

How is your belief in Templars fighting at Gotthard Pass contrary to "coconut coir" being evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island?

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

It is not stated by de Chalon, nor is it documented, that de Villiers was leading those 50 horses to La Rochelle, Loki.
That is an assumption on your part.
There is contemporary documentation that a large group of Templar Knights gathered at Lyon, considering retribution against King Phillip, which never occurred.
Where did these Templar warriors go?
There is contemporary documentation of mounted Knights in white aided the Swiss peasants when Austria invaded the Alps in 1315.
So the deductive reasoning "premise" :
de Villiers was seen by de Chalons leading 50 horses with the destination never mentioned
There was a gathering of Templars in Lyon for a possible counter offensive against King Phillip
The retribution never occurred and the Templars departed from Lyon.
Just over 7 years later, mounted knights in white helped the Swiss repel an Austrian invasion.
The Swiss flag bears a Templar cross and the emblem on all Swiss embassies is a Templar shield with cross.
In addition to their fighting skills, the Templars were bankers, and Switzerland has always been known for their banking acumen.

The coconut coir "premise":
de Chalons heard that 18 galleys had set to sea from La Rochelle
Coconut coir was found in Oak Island in the 20th century
Very slim "evidence" on which to base a premise.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

How is your belief in Templars fighting at Gotthard Pass contrary to "coconut coir" being evidence of a Templar presence on Oak Island?

I'd go more with non sequitur than contradictory. What the Templars were up to in Europe or the Levant is separate and distinct from any goings on at Oak Island. If coir existed on Oak Island it could be more indicative of an Arab presence than a Templar presence. Two recently located wrecks of Arab Dhows (the Phanom Surin and Belitung wrecks) or Chinese (the Tang wreck) from the medieval period have been found with coir lashings. I cannot find a reference to evidence or it in any shipwreck of European origin or for any use by anyone as a packing material.

 

[lokiblossom]

I'd go more with non sequitur than contradictory. What the Templars were up to in Europe or the Levant is separate and distinct from any goings on at Oak Island. If coir existed on Oak Island it could be more indicative of an Arab presence than a Templar presence. Two recently located wrecks of Arab Dhows (the Phanom Surin and Belitung wrecks) or Chinese (the Tang wreck) from the medieval period have been found with coir lashings. I cannot find a reference to evidence or it in any shipwreck of European origin or for any use by anyone as a packing material.

My point entirely Charlie. It is a fact that coconut fibre "coir" was used by vessels in the Eastern Mediterranean though it was not the best choice but what was available. Same with the Western Pacific, "coir" was readily available. It is also a fact that the Knights Templar were first formed and solidly based in the Eastern Mediterranean for 200 years (a long time). During that period vessels that were also based there would have used the areas available products, of this there can be no doubt.

Arabs, who kept excellent records of explorations never mention any cross Atlantic voyages during the time period in question, but we do know Templar vessels disappeared from La Rochelle a few months after arriving there from the Eastern Mediterranean. There is no record of where they went because they didn't want anybody to know where they went, if for no other reason than they were running from the law. Of course a couple of their vessels went back and forth transporting pilgrims from Marseille, but it is also a fact that eventually only one ship a year was allowed to use that port to do so, this because the ports authority claimed they were hurting other business' there.

I premise, because of Jean de Chalons testimony that some 18 vessels left La Rochelle, but also premise only 2 or 3 of those vessels sailing to Nova Scotia. A point I need to make is that de Chalons testimony is not that important to this discussion as it doesn't matter if 18 or only 10 vessels (a number that is less than I premise were there) left La Rochelle, or if Villiers did lead the group that went to Nova Scotia, the fact is that scientific evidence (C-14 dated coconut coir) indicates some did.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

...
I premise, because of Jean de Chalons testimony that some 18 vessels left La Rochelle, but also premise only 2 or 3 of those vessels sailing to Nova Scotia.
A point I need to make is that de Chalons testimony is not that important to this discussion as it doesn't matter if 18 or only 10 vessels (a number that is less than I premise were there) left La Rochelle, or if Villiers did lead the group that went to Nova Scotia, the fact is that scientific evidence (C-14 dated coconut coir) indicates some did.

Without de Chalons testimony, there is no collaborating evidence that any galleys set to sea from La Rochelle during that time, nor does this oft mentioned coconut coir indicate that it was brought to Oak Island by Templars.
Loki, your "premise" is based solely on assumed speculation and not actual hard fact.
'Nuff Said !

 

[Raparee]

Arabs, who kept excellent records of explorations never mention any cross Atlantic voyages during the time period in question, but we do know Templar vessels disappeared from La Rochelle a few months after arriving there from the Eastern Mediterranean. There is no record of where they went because they didn't want anybody to know where they went, if for no other reason than they were running from the law.

Maybe the Arabs didn’t leave any record of a trans-Atlantic voyage because they didn’t want anyone to know where they went, if for no other reason than they were running from the law.

 

[ECS]

... we do know Templar vessels disappeared from La Rochelle a few months after arriving there from the Eastern Mediterranean...

Who are the "we" and where is the documentation that confirm what these "we" believe?

 

[lokiblossom]

There is contemporary documentation of mounted Knights in white aided the Swiss peasants when Austria invaded the Alps in 1315.
So the deductive reasoning "premise" :
de Villiers was seen by de Chalons leading 50 horses with the destination never mentioned
There was a gathering of Templars in Lyon for a possible counter offensive against King Phillip
The retribution never occurred and the Templars departed from Lyon.
Just over 7 years later, mounted knights in white helped the Swiss repel an Austrian invasion.
The Swiss flag bears a Templar cross and the emblem on all Swiss embassies is a Templar shield with cross.
In addition to their fighting skills, the Templars were bankers, and Switzerland has always been known for their banking acumen.

This is an interesting premise your pushing, a premise of which I had never considered earlier. Certainly possible as there were plenty of Templars that had not been accounted for, some 2500 in France alone. Do you believe de Villiers took all 50 horses there? Keep up the good work!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

It is not a matter of belief, Loki, but what was written down in Swiss history.
While mounted knights in white are mentioned, de Villiers is not, which, like your "coconut coir premise" is wide open for all manner if speculation and supposition.

 

[lokiblossom]

Without de Chalons testimony, there is no collaborating evidence that any galleys set to sea from La Rochelle during that time,

That is kind of a silly comment with all of the evidence to the contrary!

This about La Rochelle, The Knights Templar in Britain, Evelyn Lord (course director of the master of studies of local and regional history at the University of Cambridge, and staff tutor in local history), pg. 120, "Their main fleet [The Knights Templar] was in La Rochelle, and it was this fleet, berthed away from the theatre of war, that was part of the maritime network linking the order in the British Isles, with the continent".

Templar historians agree that all Templar vessels at La Rochelle disappeared in 1307.

A Charter of 1139 by Eleanor of Aquitaine, Queen of France, Gave complete control of the Port of La Rochelle to the Knights Templar, "in eternity to God and the Knights of the Temple present and future". Nuff said!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

You do understand the meaning of "contemporary collaboration" of de Chalons statement...
...or are you playing the semantics game with me?
Evelyn Lord's statement has no relation to de Chalon's hearing that "18 galleys set to sea", as with your reference to Eleanor of Aquitaine.
So we are now back to the "Templar historians" that agree that "all Templar vessels at La Rochelle disappeared in 1307" statement.

If this is true, then please list these Templar historians and their quotes to support this statement, and the source these Templar historians cite to qualify the statement of "all Templar vessels at La Rochelle disappeared in 1307".
If the foundation of this statement is not based on Medieval contemporary documentation, then Loki, stating this as "fact" is without substance and is meaningless.

 

[lokiblossom]

You do understand the meaning of "contemporary collaboration" of de Chalons statement...
...or are you playing the semantics game with me?
Evelyn Lord's statement has no relation to de Chalon's hearing that "18 galleys set to sea", as with your reference to Eleanor of Aquitaine.
So we are now back to the "Templar historians" that agree that "all Templar vessels at La Rochelle disappeared in 1307" statement.

If this is true, then please list these Templar historians and their quotes to support this statement, and the source these Templar historians cite to qualify the statement of "all Templar vessels at La Rochelle disappeared in 1307".
If the foundation of this statement is not based on Medieval contemporary documentation, then Loki, stating this as "fact" is without substance and is meaningless.

History (including the history of each port city itself), agrees that after 1307 there were no Templar vessels in any French ports, so the onus is on you to show what happened to their vessels that were in the port of La Rochelle after the arrests. You are the one who claimed there was no evidence that any left port, what evidence is there that any stayed in port? There should be records of Philip or his agents seizing the Templar vessels Evelyn Lord and Jean de Chalons mention, correct?

As most Templar holdings were given to the Hospitaliers, if that's where they went there should be a record of that.

The fact is that there is no such record because they were gone, vanished with out a trace so to speak.

Cheers, Loki

 

[DaveVanP]

History (including the history of each port city itself), agrees that after 1307 there were no Templar vessels in any French ports, so the onus is on you to show what happened to their vessels that were in the port of La Rochelle after the arrests.
Cheers, Loki

It appears that the onus is on YOU to prove they ended up in Nova Scotia. The ships could have likely (more likely, actually) set sail and sunk hundreds of miles off shore...as you said, "disappeared without trace". There are no "traces" of Templars in Nova Scotia - despite "claims".

The lead cross that was found a couple years ago is IDENTICAL to one I made myself in Art class in 1971 (from all appearances - I don't have the exact measurements. Mine was about 4"x2 1/2". I lost it soon after I made it - perhaps someone found it and subsequently lost in on a beach on Oak Island). Nearly all of the "structures" and artifacts that have been analyzed have been dated to the mid-late 18th Century, 400 years to late for Templars.

 

[franklin]

I guess you imported your lead from a lead mine that shut down in France in the 14th Century too.

 

[DaveVanP]

I guess you imported your lead from a lead mine that shut down in France in the 14th Century too.

My great-uncle returned from France in 1918 with "souveniers" he picked up while in the Great War. In 1962, his house burned down, and the "souveniers" melted. The blob of melted lead, pewter, and silver was in our garage for several years, before I scrounged the lead for my art project. So - yes, the lead came from France, but I don't know how old it is. The silver was re-cast into 1-kilo bars, and is currently in my safe.

 

[ECS]

History (including the history of each port city itself), agrees that after 1307 there were no Templar vessels in any French ports, so the onus is on you to show what happened to their vessels that were in the port of La Rochelle after the arrests.
You are the one who claimed there was no evidence that any left port, what evidence is there that any stayed in port? There should be records of Philip or his agents seizing the Templar vessels Evelyn Lord and Jean de Chalons mention, correct?

What is correct is that outside of de Chalons contemporary statement, NO other contemporary records or documents exist that can conclusively confirm how many sea worthy galleys or ships were at Templar ports in 1307, how many were Templar owned or were leased fir hire by the Templars, of how many "set to sea" in 1307.
You keep making these grand broad statement like "history agrees" and "Templar historians" agree, but you neglect to name this agreeing Templar historians beyond Evelyn Lord's statement that only mentions Templar ports and vessels, which proves absolutely nothing concerning the great La Rochelle flight you base your "coconut coir premise" upon.
So if you expect your statements to be credible, once again I implore, list these Templar historians that "agree" and their quotes that actually address this point on which they all agree, and the source, knowing as you so eloquently posted:
"The fact is there is no such record because they were gone".