What REALLY happened to the wealth of Knights Templar

Old Dog

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May 22, 2007
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lamar said:
Dear Leones Corazon;
Are you posting on the right topic, my friend? I am thoroughly confused by your rather cryptic response and I would beg that if it were too much trouble for you to please clarify your statement. Please forgive me in advance for any and all inconvience this may cause you.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

Leones Corazon has done the research, he has also given you all you need to do much of the same.
Please forgive him in advance for any and all inconvience this may cause you,
But you can't be expecting everyone here to do your research for you.
The rest is feet on the ground, not books. from what we have seen.... you just won't do any of that.
 

lamar

Bronze Member
Aug 30, 2004
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Dear group;
Please note that I feel the Templars in Western Europe seemed to be a very different part of the Order than their Middle Eastern counterparts. I base this conclusion on reviewing the existing records of the individual Templar trials and inquisitions. In Western Europe, the individual Templars admitted in confession that they were pretty much guilty as charged, whereas their brothers from the Middle Eastern branch of the Order proclaimed themselves innocent of all charges and not a single Templar admitted to any of the charges which were levied against them. Also, many highly placed and credible witnesses spoke highly of the Templars of the Middle East and often gave detailed accounts of the Templar monks piety, charity, chastity and obedience.

When I mention the Middle East, I am of course referring the Templars in Rhodes, Cyrus, Malta, Antioch, Constaninople and the like. These Templars seemed to be much closer to the true Templar ideals in both their daily acts of labor and spirituality, whereas the Templars of Western Europe seemed to be less pious and more given to let others do perform the menial tasks associated with monastetic life for them. In short, the Templars of Western Europe acted more like businessmen than true monks. They also seemed to be involving in power brokering throughout the realms of Western Europe, which no doubt caused no small amount of angst from the various nobles of the time.

That so much of the documentation from the Templar trials is *lost* may be a misnomer in itself. I also feel strongly that these documents are not actually lost per se, rather they are quite likely housed in the Apostolic Penitentiary and as such, these documents are sealed by the Sacrament of the Confession and as such, they can never be opened or subjected to reviews.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Oroblanco

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HOLA amigos,
Interesting discussion. I have a question regarding this statement,

Lamar wrote
In Western Europe, the individual Templars admitted in confession that they were pretty much guilty as charged,

How much credence should we grant to confessions which may have been obtained via torture? A man will admit to anything under torture, whether he did it or not - just to end the torture. So were all of these Templar confessions given freely, not due to any torture or under duress?

I would also point out that the Templars of Portugal were treated quite differently from those in France and elsewhere, their Order basically simply changed names and continued to function.

Leones Corazon wrote
And if you start with the biblical tale of the journey to Ophir....it all falls into line.

Would you care to explain the connection(s) you have mentioned here amigo? I would appreciate it, thank you in advance, EDIT - you are cordially invited to explain in a new thread focused on the theories concerning the Templars, the link is: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,223172.new.html#new

Lamar also wrote
Dear Old Dog;
<Old Dog wrote>Leones Corazon has done the research, he has also given you all you need to do much of the same.
Please forgive him in advance for any and all inconvience this may cause you,
But you can't be expecting everyone here to do your research for you.
The rest is feet on the ground, not books. from what we have seen.... you just won't do any of that.


My friend, would you happen to have something useful AND factual to contribute to the discussion? If not, please do not disrupt the context of this topic with accusations and more conspiracy theories as they only serve to confuse the issues. Please, no turtles here my friend, no secret Jesuit code books, no dark conspiratorial masons lurking in the shadows, only the facts.

I fail to see any accusations and/or conspiracy theories in our friend Old Dog's posts. You are the only person whom has brought up turtles, secret Jesuit codes and Masonic conspiracies in this thread. I do understand your desire to stay on subject and stick as close to historical accuracy as possible, however is there any harm in examining stone symbols, ruins etc? They could be complete hoaxes or they could be important and unknown (publicly) historical artifacts, without examining them we cannot know.

NewtoPa I would love to see photos of Rosslyn Chapel, as I cannot afford to visit it in person that is as close as I can ever hope to get.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

JakefaePa

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Hello there Oroblanco :notworthy: i feel i almost know you by now,ive spent a large portion of the day reading the Montazuma thread..what an ordeal that was , however i was truely hooked and here i am at 3:20am just finished it.
I have to admit the thread got more than a little dull towards the end and id been skipping over blindbowmans posts from early on as i had realised a vast number of them were missing and little makes sense anyway.

The pictures of the Arizona mountains were wonderful , ill make sure i get the pictures looked out and ill be happy to post them.Do bear in mind i may have to reduce size from originals so if you would like full size of any particular picture ill be happy to forward.
 

Oroblanco

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Thank you NewtoPa, I look forward to viewing your pix! :thumbsup:
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Oro Blanco;
You stated:
How much credence should we grant to confessions which may have been obtained via torture? A man will admit to anything under torture, whether he did it or not - just to end the torture. So were all of these Templar confessions given freely, not due to any torture or under duress?

I have already touched on the subject of confessions being obtained under the possibility of torture, and it seems that the Chinon Parchment asks every Templar, under oath whether they had suffered from any torture at ANY time since they had been apprehended, and if they suffered torture at the hands of either secular or clerical officials. Without exception every Templar swore, under oath that they had NOT been tortured into giving false confessions.

Even during the Middle Ages the Roman Catholic church was opposed to torture as an instrument of extracting confessions and it was used as a method of extracting the truth with extreme prudence, as the Holy See, even during those dark centuries realized that any man could be made to state anything if subjected to sufficient amounts of torture. This is why the Papal representives took great pains to dilligently ask the accused if they had been victims of torture.

Catagorically each Templar replied in the negative. In light of the written evidence one may coclude that not EVERY Templar could have perpetuated the same lie, therefore another theory must be proposed. If we are to believe the documentation of the trials and the following inquisitions, we can then embark upon a different course.

It seems that there does not exist ANY record of Templars being tortured during the 14th and 15th centuries. In fact, the very first records which define the torture of the Templars at the hands of their captors first arose to prominence in the 16th century, during the Protestant Reformation period. Not only did they describe torture, they took care to describe in GREAT DETAIL the methods and duration of the totrtuous acts.

Also, taking into account that the reformers originally stated that hundreds of Templars were killed, these numbers were later increased into the thousands, whereas the official records of the Roman Catholic and the secular European governments show that a total of 9 Templars were executed.

We must remember that these writings occurred some 250 years AFTER the dissolution of the Templar order, therefore we may be able to conclude with certainty that the Protestant reformers made up lies about the trials and torture of the Templars in order to paint the Roman Catholic church as a sect of bloodthirsty fanatics, bent on destruction of anyone do not agree with their rigid domatic views.

This theory can be further expounded upon by the Protestant Reformers detailed descriptions of the Spanish Inquisition, in which they described thousands upon thousands of innocents as being burned at the stake, when in truth, the total number of executed heretics was 468, with only 23 being burned at the stake, the rest being executed by the other popular methods of execution of the time, namely beheading, hanging and strangulation.

It seems that we must disregard historical accounts which occurred after the fact and instead concentrate wholly on firsthand accounts as the later claims paint a completely different picture of the Templar trials. I find it sad that not only are these wild claims are now regarded as gospel when in fact they were only instruments of intentional and deliberate deceit. I also find it sad that nobody has ever made a serious effort to refute these claims for what they are and that people continue to believe in these fantastic lies.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Oro Blanco;
To refute your statement regarding my obseravtions about turtles etc, it is my humble opinion that we are attempting to have a civil discussion about the possibility of Templar treasures without the introduction of conspiracy theories. Roslyn chapel was used as an example of a possible connection, however that can be shot down due to the vast difference in timelines.

Then, out of the blue, Corazon Leones comes out with a crytic rambling that could be used in the book The Holy Blood, Holy Grail and it was responded to by Old Dog with more of the same rot, even going so far as to imply that I am not performing my own research as dilligently as I might. To reponse to this allegation I reaffirm my current position. I neither desire nor need his or Leones Corazons' input on this subject OR their supposed research. I much prefer the liberal application of FACTS as opposed to fancy conspiracy theories and "what-if" histories.

My desires are simple. Speak the truth, speak it plainly and speak it frankly. Always, even if it leads to your demise.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar

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Dear OroBlanco;
You wrote:
I would also point out that the Templars of Portugal were treated quite differently from those in France and elsewhere, their Order basically simply changed names and continued to function.

Welllllllllllllll, not EXACTLY, my friend. The Portuguese Order of Christ WAS in fact founded after the dissolution of the Templar Order and it DID include many former Templars and the new Order DID gain control of the Templar holdings in Portugal, HOWEVER there was a LOT of political manuvering on the part of King Denis of Portugal with the Vatican before the Order of Christ was approved by the Holy See.

It seems that the Vatican was not keen for a repeat episode of the Templar ordeal, therefore they took great pangs to ensure that the Order of Christ would hold ONLY public announcements of faith(no more secret rites of initiation), that the Order would be subjected to *visits* by representatives of the Vatican at any time and that the King of Portugal would be held directly responsible for the behavior of the Order at all times.
Pope Clement successor, Pope John XXII was no doubt unwilling to jump through the same hoop of fire for a second time, therefore the Order of Christ was approved under the auspices and guidance of Papal legates and the Rule of the order was set forth under the principles of St. Benedict. Because of all of the political manuvering and safety checks which were being insisted by the Vatican, the Order was not formed until mid-1318. Pope John XXII approved the formation of the Order and authorized it into existence by issing Papal Bull AD EA EX QUIBUIS on 14 March 1319.

To state that Templar Order in Portugal simply changed their name and continued as before is very far from the truth of the matter. The Order of Christ ahered to a different Rule and a different set of principles. Their mission was entirely than the Templars' mission. The members of the Order of Christ were utilized by the King of Portugal primarily to restore order to Portugal after the Reconquista period.

When Prince Henry the Navigator became the Grand Master of the Order in 1417, the Order of Christ found themselves playing a major role in a brand new business, namely exploring and conquering lands in the name of the Portuguese Crown and as such, the Order moved from being a solely land-based one to a sea-going one. The Order of Christ, through their many seafaring deeds helped usher in the Age of Discovery and it was because of this that the sails of all Portuguese ships prominently bore the cross of the Order of Christ.

Eventually the Order became secularized and split into two different groupd, one which was ruled by the Pope and the other which was ruled by the King of Portugal, however during their existence the Order of Christ maintained it's high standards of chivalry, duty, and honor to become of the outstanding military religious Orders of it's day.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Oroblanco

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Lamar wrote
Dear OroBlanco;
You wrote:
I would also point out that the Templars of Portugal were treated quite differently from those in France and elsewhere, their Order basically simply changed names and continued to function.

Welllllllllllllll, not EXACTLY, my friend.

Hmm... so how many Templars in Portugal were prosecuted? How many Templar properties were forfeited to the government? I fail to see any great differences between the Templars activities and the Order of Christ the former Templars (in Portugal) became. For example, you wrote

the Order moved from being a solely land-based one to a sea-going one.

Are you saying that the Templars did not have any ships nor operate in the seas whatsoever? Thank you in advance,

Lamar also wrote
Dear Oro Blanco;
To refute your statement regarding my obseravtions about turtles etc, it is my humble opinion that we are attempting to have a civil discussion about the possibility of Templar treasures without the introduction of conspiracy theories. Roslyn chapel was used as an example of a possible connection, however that can be shot down due to the vast difference in timelines.

Then, out of the blue, Corazon Leones comes out with a crytic rambling that could be used in the book The Holy Blood, Holy Grail and it was responded to by Old Dog with more of the same rot, even going so far as to imply that I am not performing my own research as dilligently as I might. To reponse to this allegation I reaffirm my current position. I neither desire nor need his or Leones Corazons' input on this subject OR their supposed research. I much prefer the liberal application of FACTS as opposed to fancy conspiracy theories and "what-if" histories.

My desires are simple. Speak the truth, speak it plainly and speak it frankly. Always, even if it leads to your demise.

Corazon Leones "cryptic rambling" was not too specific about any of the things you mention, unless I fail to see them. Here is what he wrote
Rog ya old goat. Email me to whom is close to garnishing the unwanted attention.

I will say this to all. I have read roge's words and had a chat or two with him.
And i will say he is dead on as i have seent he proof in the rock...
And if you start with the biblical tale of the journey to Ophir....it all falls into line.

The only leading statement I see is "And if you start with the biblical tale of the journey to Ophir...it all falls into line." I even asked Corazon Leones about this statement, if he would explain it further. I take it that you do NOT wish for Corazon Leones to say anything further as you have already judged what he will say, and what Old Dog will also say. So by all means, have it your way - I am more than willing to say to our friends Corazon Leones and Old Dog please don't bother to explain any further here in this thread, we can readily discuss it in depth in another thread. I will start a new thread and invite you to speak there.

Here is the link to a new thread, focused on the various theories on the Templars:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,223172.new.html#new

Lamar also wrote
My desires are simple. Speak the truth, speak it plainly and speak it frankly. Always, even if it leads to your demise.

Why should speaking the truth plainly and frankly in any way possibly lead to your own demise? What truth could be revealed here, that would cost a life? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

cactusjumper

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Very interesting topic and fascinating pictures of Roslyn Chapel.

Hoping the discussion will turn towards the history of the St. Clair's and the family historian, Father Hay.

Joe Ribaudo
 

JakefaePa

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Ahhh Fr Hay ..i read quite a bit on him and others,the St Clairs are a very ancient family indeed,the name has changed over the eons to its present form which really puts them abroad (europe)some time before Roslyn Chapel was built but as ive said bear in mind a stones throw away was Roslyn castle long before the chapel ever was , whats to say templers were not at the castle and thus lent expertise in various matters.

Edited to add , some dismiss Roslyn with the fact it was built 150 years after the dissolution of the templers , what they fail to mention is this is not the original Roslyn chapel , its the 3rd chapel built there.
Now i think that settles the could they have been involved question.
 

Old Dog

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May 22, 2007
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lamar said:
Dear Old Dog;
Leones Corazon has done the research, he has also given you all you need to do much of the same.
Please forgive him in advance for any and all inconvience this may cause you,
But you can't be expecting everyone here to do your research for you.
The rest is feet on the ground, not books. from what we have seen.... you just won't do any of that.


My friend, would you happen to have something useful AND factual to contribute to the discussion? If not, please do not disrupt the context of this topic with accusations and more conspiracy theories as they only serve to confuse the issues. Please, no turtles here my friend, no secret Jesuit code books, no dark conspiratorial masons lurking in the shadows, only the facts.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar.
I don't know why you call me friend.
I am not yours.

My response to this comment is in regard to your constant self infliction on someone elses question or comment.
this was not directly posted to you ... but to another.

You make many alogations in favor of your chosen group,
and back them up with debunked facts ad nausium.

I am not a friend of one who misleads or lies.
your additions to the threads on this site are only to confuse and mislead.
Please do not respond to my posts anytime.
I have no truck with a jesuit.
They are all the same ... you have proven my point

The information above has been renounced by the vatican within the last year,
The Templars were exhonerated by none other than the Pope.
The above information you use is coerced at best.
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear oroBlanco;
To answer your enquiries:
Are you saying that the Templars did not have any ships nor operate in the seas whatsoever? Thank you in advance,

I did NOT state the Templar Order did not possess ships at any time during their existence, merely that they were not KNOWN for being seafarers. It's known that the Templars financed many expeditions throughout their history, namely in the Mediterranian.

Hmm... so how many Templars in Portugal were prosecuted? How many Templar properties were forfeited to the government? I fail to see any great differences between the Templars activities and the Order of Christ the former Templars (in Portugal) became.

All Templars officials in Protugal were questioned by representatives of the Vatican and the King of Portugal. None of them had committed any acts which were deemed inapproriate and did not lend cause for either the individuals to be placed on trial nor the Order itself. No witnesses stated anything which helped to condemn the order or it's members.

After a long period of rather intense negotiations between the Papacy and king of Portugal, Pope John XXII authorized King Denis to grant all former Templar holdings to the newly founded Order of Christ in 1323.

Of course the questions remains, WHY did King Denis fight so hard to protect the former Templars and establish a new Order? The answer is actually quite simple, my friend. Because he NEEDED them! Please bear in mind that the Military-Monastastic Orders of the Middle Ages were the ONLY standing armies in Western Europe since the demise of the Roman Empire.

The nations of Western Europe during the Middle Ages were all based on the fuedal system of government, that is to state that all nobles under the Crown owed their liege lord a set number of days of military service, the number being roughly 40, although the actual number of days varied from place to place and from liege to liege.

Considering that the warrior/monks were the only actual standing armies in Europe at the time AND the fact that they swore fealty only to the Pope, it's no wonder that many nobles became increasingly alarmed as the territories in the Middle East were lost and thus the ranks of the Templars swelled to ever higher numbers in the wake of this event. And so, because the warrior/monks were loyal only to the Pope, this meant that the Vatican was the de facto ruler of Western Europe, as the Pope had under his control the military might to enforce his will.

In light of this fact, it came as no surprise that a large percentage of the nobility of Western Europe wished to dispense with the Military Orders, but not all. Some, like King Denis, realized the inherent value of a large standing army of warrior/monks, and in fact, it was the Templars whom repelled the Moorish invaders. It was only through the heroic efforts of the Templars in Portugal that Portugal did not fall to Moorish rule in the same manner as southern and central Spain.

With the continual threat of Moorish invasion to Portugals' frontiers, it therefore comes as no surprise that King Denis went to exceedingly great lengths to insure there would remain a standing army of warrior/monks in His realm and since the Templar Order was doomed, he therefore set out to establish a new Order.

The difference between the Templars and the Order of Christ lay in their charters. The Vatican took great pangs to ensure that the Order of Christ would not degenerate over time as did the Templars. The Order of Christ was forbidden to handle any funds except their own and their ability to raise funds was restricted. All initiation ceremonies became public and required the use of notaries as witnesses. The power potential of the Order was also restricted and while the Order once more swore ultimate alliegance to the Pope, the Pope also appointed the sitting king of Portugal as a Papal representive in matters regarding the Order, thus affording the King with a limited ability to command the Order in regards to security of Portuguese borders at home and later that of Portuguese holdings aboard.

Why should speaking the truth plainly and frankly in any way possibly lead to your own demise? What truth could be revealed here, that would cost a life?
That is part of my vows. I live by it daily and I expect no less of any man with whom I have dealings. Many times throughout life a man may be asked or commanded to perjure himself for some ulterior motive. This can not be done, no matter what the possible penalty may be.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Old Dog;
That I consider you to be my friend is a foregone conclusion, my friend. I strongly feel that your rebellious attitude is in fact a plea for help and I have taken it upon myself to assist you. That many rush to the fountain of knowledge, intent upon quaffing deeply of it's contents, whilst others seem content merely to rinse out their mouths in no way lessens my respect for you.

That you have rejected many well-founded principals and instead have embraced some ill-founded notions bothers me not in the least, my friend. With dilligent efforts we shall once more set your feet upon the path of righteousness. I have faith in you, my dear friend, even though you perhaps have lost faith in yourself.
Your FRIEND!
LAMAR
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Old Dog;
My dear friend, you incorrectly stated:
The information above has been renounced by the vatican within the last year,
The Templars were exhonerated by none other than the Pope.
The above information you use is coerced at best.

My reply is that the Vatican issued no such statement, my misinformed friend, nor will they issue any such statement exhonerating the Templars in the future. Several members of the Vatican have expressed regreat over the incident, but I personally feel that they made their statements in the context of the overall sorry state of affairs in the early 1300s and not in the dissolution of the Templar Order itself. To read the statement which the Vatican DID make regarding the Templars, go here, my old friend:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0706116.htm
As a personal plea from me to you, if you could assist me in stamping out rumors such as the one which you posted, then our way would be clear to study the actual facts of the matter in greater detail. Together you and me can help clean out the foul, rank den of conspricay theories and make our world a better place for future generations to live in.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear group;
I have no questions regarding the supposed hidden wealth of the Templars as it's a foregone conclusion where that went to, however I do have questions about HOW they managed to accquire all of the wealth in the first place. Think about the situation for just a moment, my friends.

The Templars were in fact the worlds' very first international banking institution. A pilgram could deposit their wealth at any Templar chancellary and then withdraw funds as necessary from any other Templar chancellary enroute or at their destination. Or, they could leave the funds safe in the Templars' hands to be withdrawn at a future date.

Now, the Templars somehow managed to do all of this without any form of tele-communications, computers or even a pocket calculator amongst them! That they somehow managed to keep the books balanced and rake off a tidy profit is an INCREDIBLE FEAT of administration! Just think of our banking institutions. There is an almost constant stream of information being exchanged to keep abreast of the situation, yet the Templars did not have this luxury. A fifty mile journey in the 1000s century was 3 to 5 days' travel in good weather on good roads.

It is a question I have often asked yet have never gotten a satisfactory answer to. Nobody seems to know how they managed to successfully pull it off for two hundred years, yet they did.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

cactusjumper

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Newt,

The St. Clair's were at the top of the food chain when it came to fighting and bravery. There are many stories recounting their heroics. My favorite is the one where Sir William St. Clair, along with his brother John, and Sir James Douglas, carrying the heart of Robert the Bruce set out on a journey to Jerusalem to bury it in the Holy Land.

On the way, they learned that the King of Spain was at war with the Moors in Southern Spain. They, of course, volunteered their services. While fighting in the battle of Theba, the two brothers were hard pressed by the Saracens and Sir James Douglas galloped to their rescue. The knight who was carrying the silver casket that contained the heart, threw it into the attacking Saracens. All three charged after the casket and were killed quickly.

The Saracens, as a sign of honor for such bravery, returned their bodies and the silver casket to the Spaniards. As was the custom, their skulls and thighbones were returned to Scotland for burial. The casket with the late kings heart was also returned.

One of many interesting stories about the St. Clair's. :icon_study:

Take care,

Joe
 

Oroblanco

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HOLA amigos,
Lamar wrote
<Oroblanco wrote>Why should speaking the truth plainly and frankly in any way possibly lead to your own demise? What truth could be revealed here, that would cost a life?
That is part of my vows. I live by it daily and I expect no less of any man with whom I have dealings. Many times throughout life a man may be asked or commanded to perjure himself for some ulterior motive. This can not be done, no matter what the possible penalty may be.
Part of your vows, and you expect every man with whom you have dealings to also live by the same measure of your own personal vows? Isn't that just a little un-reasonable? I have not taken such a vow, do you expect my every utterance to be held to your standard of truth? Complete truth is not always the best course, for would you tell a very fat woman that she IS very fat? Why hurt someone's feelings for the vain sake of making a statement of truth that would benefit no one? Your personal quest for truth has limits too, for we see in another thread that you are quite ready to condemn any and all theories, before examining the evidence. (More in that thread.) Of course, perhaps we simply view things from a different perspective, after all some folks have called me A BORN LIAR! ;D :D :wink: :tongue3:

*Side note but you are in no mortal danger from my quarter. :thumbsup:

Lamar also wrote, <addressing his remarks to our amigo Old Dog>

As a personal plea from me to you, if you could assist me in stamping out rumors such as the one which you posted, then our way would be clear to study the actual facts of the matter in greater detail. Together you and me can help clean out the foul, rank den of conspricay theories and make our world a better place for future generations to live in.

As I mentioned above, you appear to be ready and willing to "stamp out" rumors, to "clean out the foul, rank den of conspiracy theories and make our world a better place" & c even before we have heard the cases. You would stamp out these cases before they are presented? Imagine if our court system worked that way. To condemn a case or theory without hearing it out and examining the evidence presented, makes as much sense as a person who condemns the holy Bible without ever reading it. Sometimes your logic and bias baffles me Lamar. Care to explain further? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

lamar

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Aug 30, 2004
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Dear oroblanco;
You stated:
I have not taken such a vow, do you expect my every utterance to be held to your standard of truth?
Yes I do. If you do not feel the same then perhaps you should then re-examine your moral state, my friend. Please note that I can not be expected to act as your conscious.
Complete truth is not always the best course, for would you tell a very fat woman that she IS very fat?
If she asked me, yes. If a fat lady walked up to me and asked me, point blank "Lamar, do you think I am fat?" I would be morally bound to state "Yes, I think you are fat." most likely followed by her slapping me upside the head. But sometimes that is the price we must pay, my friend.
Sometimes your logic and bias baffles me Lamar. Care to explain further?
No.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

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