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  1. #21
    us
    Aug 2005
    Warrenton, VA
    Garrett CX II/Sovereign SX-2a Pro/Quattro
    589
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Hey, Zeb,
    question has nothing to do with Kokoweef. I understand that diving on wrecks in the Great Lakes is a no-no, but what if one could buy the wreck from the legal owners or heirs, could a person or group then salvage their own ship?

    grizzly bare

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  3. #22
    us
    Oct 2005
    Northern, Michigan
    willow stick
    6,797
    112 times
    eating

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grizzly bare
    Hey, Zeb,
    question has nothing to do with Kokoweef. I understand that diving on wrecks in the Great Lakes is a no-no, but what if one could buy the wreck from the legal owners or heirs, could a person or group then salvage their own ship?

    grizzly bare
    That's a very good question.

    One major problem would be identifying the ship in the first place. The good finds are the old schooners and the lakes are hard on these. The cold water preserves them but it's the currents, etc., that rip them apart. Diving in some areas is only for the big and brave. And too, don?t overlook tribal agreements.

    If one did ones research and got a general idea of a certain ships whereabouts, then made contact with the owners to see if salvage rights are viable, well, maybe you'd have something. You?d have to check with the state and I wouldn?t envy you in having to do that. It would be a lot of work and hassle but maybe would pay off in the long run.

    Most people today have absolutely no idea how valuable these Great Lakes shipwrecks are. I personally would pay big $$$ if I knew I could buy rigging or whatever from a historic Great Lakes ship. You?ve heard of the Christmas Ship (The Rouse Simmons)? I?d love to get a piece of her. Heck, even just one of her Christmas trees. The guy who found her never realized her extreme value.

    An intact schooner (with a great story) made in the 1800's would be worth millions when used to attract business in the Great Lakes area (sometimes gold looks like wood).

    Good luck.
    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  4. #23
    us
    Aug 2005
    Warrenton, VA
    Garrett CX II/Sovereign SX-2a Pro/Quattro
    589
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Zeb,
    Actually I was thinking in terms of one of the newer ships like a car carrier or ferry. With the way that cold water preserves stuff, some of those old autos would be worth quite a bit to the collectors who wanted to restore them. Also the container ships with household goods or hardware would be another gold mine. I would like to have some lanterns, or houseware from a 'Great Lakes" ship.

    grizzly bare

  5. #24
    us
    Oct 2005
    Northern, Michigan
    willow stick
    6,797
    112 times
    eating

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grizzly bare
    Zeb,
    Actually I was thinking in terms of one of the newer ships like a car carrier or ferry. With the way that cold water preserves stuff, some of those old autos would be worth quite a bit to the collectors who wanted to restore them. Also the container ships with household goods or hardware would be another gold mine. I would like to have some lanterns, or houseware from a 'Great Lakes" ship.

    grizzly bare
    The 1929 S.S. Milwaukee?

    Personally I'd try for the nine French Warships reported lost on the Great Lakes in combat with the British during the French & Indian War 1755-62. One was thought to be the Le MARQUISE de VANDREUILL and another OUTOUAISE,? the names of the others are not reported.

    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  6. #25
    us
    Aug 2005
    Warrenton, VA
    Garrett CX II/Sovereign SX-2a Pro/Quattro
    589
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Zeb, I would LOVE to be able to salvage/dive/film(Hell, just look at) those ships. Unfortunately because of the fiasco surrounding the Chincoteague/Assateague finds and the concomitant stupid ruling that makes all sovereign ships the property of the country of origin IN PERPETUITY!!!, we can NEVER legally touch those.
    (the very sad) grizzly bare

  7. #26
    us
    Oct 2005
    Northern, Michigan
    willow stick
    6,797
    112 times
    eating

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grizzly bare
    Zeb, I would LOVE to be able to salvage/dive/film(Hell, just look at) those ships. Unfortunately because of the fiasco surrounding the Chincoteague/Assateague finds and the concomitant stupid ruling that makes all sovereign ships the property of the country of origin IN PERPETUITY!!!,? we can NEVER legally touch those.
    (the very sad) grizzly bare
    Ya I know, bummer

    But on the other hand, one can go fishing in those areas and carry ones scuba gear in the boat next to the electronic searching equipment

    It's all a matter of how bad ya want it.
    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  8. #27
    us
    Aug 2005
    Warrenton, VA
    Garrett CX II/Sovereign SX-2a Pro/Quattro
    589
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Zeb, I'm just too tired (and lazy) right now to do proper research, but is anyone doing tourist sub dives on the Great Lakes? One of those 6 to 8 person jobs would be extra cool . Some of them have significat depth and extended under-water time. Was fortunate enough to get on one in Bahamas last year and was impressed as all get out. Operator was something of a dare-devil and we got REAL close to a couple of sunken vessels. Come to think of it, the same company had a 12 person with a grappling arm that could pick up stuff both small or fairly large.
    Now wouldn't that be a great find in a Christmas stocking this year?

    grizzly bare

  9. #28
    us
    Oct 2005
    Northern, Michigan
    willow stick
    6,797
    112 times
    eating

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by grizzly bare
    Zeb, I'm just too tired (and lazy) right now to do proper research, but is anyone doing tourist sub dives on the Great Lakes? One of those 6 to 8 person jobs would be extra cool . Some of them have significat depth and extended under-water time. Was fortunate enough to get on one in Bahamas last year and was impressed as all get out. Operator was something of a dare-devil and we got REAL close to a couple of sunken vessels. Come to think of it, the same company had a 12 person with a grappling arm that could pick up stuff both small or fairly large.
    Now wouldn't that be a great find in a Christmas stocking this year?

    grizzly bare
    I'll take a sub! Sounds like a dream come true.

    There are none that I know of operating in the Great Lakes. I guess looking at sand bottom just gets boring.

    Really, the big lakes would be a piece-o-cake to hunt but most don't bother due to all the hassle.

    Someday they'll probably bring some sort of treasure hunting sub into the lakes and find hundreds of wrecks. Then the state will make them an underwater park.
    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  10. #29

    Apr 2005
    colorado
    850
    1 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Does anyone know Earl P Dorr's son's name? My buddy talked at length with him 25 years ago, but cant remember his first name.
    He asked me to try and find Earl's son.
    Dano.
    Specialized Tracking, Searches, Research, Huge Treasure library.
    CZ-20  Arc-geo logger  Garret's  Tessoro's  magnetometer  Spectral Analysis
    Bloodhound tracking  Helicopter services Photography etc.

  11. #30

    Aug 2005
    121

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    I located info on an Earl P Dorr Jr. once, born in the 1920 which would have made him approx. 60 when your friend talked to him.

    Which would make him 85 now, if he was in fact the person your friend talked to.

    To be honest I can't say if Dorr had a son or not.

    But then again I have met several different people who have claimed that their fathers, uncles, you name it, had worked with Earl Dorr at one time or another and each one has had thier own wild ideas and theories that did not even come close to the information left behind by Dorr.

    Hell from all the people that claim to have worked with Dorr, the Kokoweef was one popular spot.

  12. #31

    Apr 2005
    colorado
    850
    1 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Thank's for the reply Las Vegas Bob! I figured it out this morning His name is Raymond. My Buddy would like to talk to you sometime,as he has some other/or/new/ info. He talked to Raymond 25 years ago and would be about 70 today.
    Give me a shout, I'd like to come out sometime for sure! I'm in Colorado and he lives all over.
    Dano.
    Specialized Tracking, Searches, Research, Huge Treasure library.
    CZ-20  Arc-geo logger  Garret's  Tessoro's  magnetometer  Spectral Analysis
    Bloodhound tracking  Helicopter services Photography etc.

  13. #32

    Apr 2005
    colorado
    850
    1 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Well EP didn't have a son, as we know now! Raymond was his nephew!!! I did find him and we are under way!!
    Got over 40 pages of info that Raymond says is mostly BS. But we have a new start....
    Dano. Thanks guys.
    Specialized Tracking, Searches, Research, Huge Treasure library.
    CZ-20  Arc-geo logger  Garret's  Tessoro's  magnetometer  Spectral Analysis
    Bloodhound tracking  Helicopter services Photography etc.

  14. #33

    Jan 2006
    7

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb
    Quote Originally Posted by Las Vegas Bob
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeb
    If I may jump in here in minute, I've been extremely interested in the Kokoweef Peak project since I first obtained that video "The Search for America's Great Treasures" Vol. II.

    Please help me out here with the following:

    1. Who is Las Vegas Bob? I mean, who is he in regard to the original team as in the 1995 video presentation?

    Thats me...............Due to mining interest in another state I was not present when said video was shot....

    I visited the Kokoweef in the mid 70's? when the only access to the the cavern system (the entrance used by Dorr) was a climb down an eighty foot chain ladder.? There you could see his name smoked on the wall near a massive rock fall.? ? Since that time several tunnels? have been cut to reach that same? area.? ? I? became an active member of the Kokoweef crew in the late 1980's.? I have helped map, drill,? blast and muck out several hundred feet of new tunnels? as well as taking part in seismology surveys.? I have? participated in the drilling holes to run cameras into various areas of the tunnels that peaked our interest.....I have helped with construction projects involving the camp as well.

    All my work, as with many others involved was all voluntary...........I am? there for the experience, the fun, the adventure and of course to strike it rich if and when we hit the river.?


    2. What ever happened to Larry Hahn and William Herkert? Are they still involved in the project?

    Larry Hahn is still active and still runs the operation.? Bill died several years ago.

    3. Have any newer videos been produced for this project?

    No.

    4. Are there any projections as to when the work may be completed?

    By work I can only assume you mean the exploration of the area.

    We are looking for something that is lost inside a vast mountain that is extremely cavernous, this was a wet cave system in the middle of the desert.? The area's we have explored are now dry and no longer actively growing..? Although we have run across large deposits of wet mud/clay? material in some of areas.? There is no active water flowing? in the areas we have explored.

    In fact we have to haul all of our water into the area by tanker truck,? from? commercially operated mine near by.? The water we haul in is for the camp use and for drilling.

    As far as when it will the work may be completed...........................When we find what we are looking for.

    Thanks much and in behalf of all who will read this I thank you! (whomever).
    I hope my answers were sufficient.

    WOW!?

    Thanks much, LVB

    I've watched that old Kokoweef video so many times I almost feel like I'm there.

    The information you shared makes the whole story far more interesting as things stand today.

    I hope sometime soon a new updated film can be made.

    Best to you.

    Zeb? ?
    Re: kokoweef
    ? Reply #1 on: Today at 01:34:57 am ?

    Zeb, I was the newsletter editor for several years while at Kokoweef.
    There ARE still a few old one available, but I have to let you know that knowing what I know now it wouldn't be ethically possible for me to promote "the generic story" of the 'Kokoweef legend.' For instance ...

    Has anyone thought of why the huge, ancient city of TROY was lost from knowledge and view for centuries? ... and it was on the surface!
    Earl 'Dorr's' so-called "entry" was allegedly small and, later, was intentionally hidden. (i.e. easy to hide then / hard to find nearly 80 years later) The "game of whisper" and intentional disinformation and misinterpretations has done the rest to obscure the "missing information."

    25 Years of researching, volunteering and living at Kokoweef Peak has taught me a lot about the legend ... and people.

    So, all you Kokoweef geniuses, do you REALLY believe that good old Earl P. Dorr (a practical miner) would give ANYone the complete and correct information regarding an entry location? ... IF and when :

    1. ... the entry's deep DESTINATION was involved with someone else's property, which he couldn't file a "clear 'n clean" mining claim on for legal title?
    2. ... mining gold (and not turning it into the US Government) would violate Federal law passed in 1933 and other existing business taxes?
    2. ... he'd set himself up for manslaughter or murder charges if he had blasted and left skeletons inside "the only known entrance?"
    3. ... he might implicate other relatives if they had knowledge of blasted-in-and-left-behind skeletons inside that alledged "only known entrance?"
    4. ... he'd be giving away his reward for his hard work when exact information would enable others to keep him "in the cold without the gold?"
    5. ... The National Park Service's position, even in the 40's, was to PREVENT "monument quality caverns" from falling into private ownership!
    6. ... World War II did SHUT down ALL gold-only mines in America? (Would Earl have left any entry wide open for anyone else to find?)

    This legend has everything to do with the psychology of unanalysing imaginations, motivations, deceptions and poor "homework."

    There is a BIG difference between BELIEVING in something and KNOWING something.

    The Directors and investors in Explorations Inc. of NV have been sincere in their search-efforts at Kokoweef Peak.
    At worst, they might be accused of inefficiency, but that is often a limiting nature within volunteering efforts and certainly not criminal.
    Suckers are ignorant of "something," informationally, and most of that can be traced back to Earl Dorr's motivations and deceptions, which were let out into the surrounding world of observers to suit his purposes and NOT leave himself disadvantaged.

    In my opinion Earl probably survived great odds to become the "great old gent" his nephew Ray experienced. He was a hot-tempered, young cowboy who escaped history to view and live through World War I, The Great Depression, WW II and the advent of the Atomic Age. People may judge him unkindly, based on unproved 'dasturdly deeds,' but I wasn't there with him. And, eventually, I realized that, as it is for everyone:
    "Written descriptions by sideline observers are not living experiences."

    I can imagine 'ol foxy Earl muttering around his campfire near the Pearly Gates:

    I trekked those hills,
    Till my bones were old.
    They got my BeanS,
    But NOT my gold!

  15. #34

    Apr 2005
    colorado
    850
    1 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    You tell em LVB!! I just started reading and looking into Kokoweff, and I'm amazed at the vast differences in the stories I've heard.
    You know how you can tell one person a story and pass it along 6 people, and when it gets back to you it's completely changed.
    I'd love to make it out there just to see the area sometime.
    Dano.
    Specialized Tracking, Searches, Research, Huge Treasure library.
    CZ-20  Arc-geo logger  Garret's  Tessoro's  magnetometer  Spectral Analysis
    Bloodhound tracking  Helicopter services Photography etc.

  16. #35

    Aug 2005
    121

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Thanks Dano but that last post was another member of the Kokoweef crew adding his two cents.

    Your right about the different stories though.? Heck if you look for Kokoweef on the Sierra club sites you'll see that we have nothing but a bunch of heathens living in our base camp.

    Then you get the guys that want to start their own search for the caverns using ideas never tried before.?

    Hell if they had done ANY research they would have found out the area is a working mining claim with owners, investors, workers etc etc.

    All other areas around the Kokoweef is either claimed up by other mining interests or is under the iron fist rule of the neo Nazi group know as the BLM.

    I have had them (the BLM) run me off of abandon property.

    A cabin and a mine shaft was on said site. I had explored said site on more then one occassion.

    Then one day they (the BLM) showed up and slapped a no tresspassing "government property sign" on the site.

    They have done this on several peices of property in and around the area.

    So the option of just going out and doing your own thing is kind of moot. It's either claimed or under the watchful eye of the government.

    But Dano if ya ever get a chance to get down to the area let me know,? I know we can get you a tour of the site.

  17. #36
    us
    Oct 2005
    Northern, Michigan
    willow stick
    6,797
    112 times
    eating

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    So with the Bureau of Land Management and all other interests in the area we can pretty much forget about a gold rush out that way.

    Back to the story thing, I'm always amazed at the many different story versions for just about every legend. It's just like the TV versions done by the film group who did the story on Kokoweef. As I watch some of their old shows I wonder if they even bothered to read the original account documents. It was like they said--how can we make this story real stimulating and tell the whole deal in 20 minutes without going over budget?

    I see why these hollywood "treasure programs" don't make it long.
    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  18. #37

    Aug 2005
    121

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Pretty much so Zeb................Same goes for the National Forest Service whenever they are involved.

    I had a placer mining claim in Northern CA.

    There was an old miners cabin from the 1800's on said claim. Even though I did not use the cabin, I used to let a local live in the cabin as a caretaker. The area was remote and he took care of the claim, running off snipers, keeping my claim markers up, etc. during the off season.

    One day the aforementioned National Forest Circus people came along and tore the cabin down.

    In fact that very same year several other cabins, I believe ten in all, through out the area were torn down, most of them dated back to circa 1800.

    The reasoning behind such distruction..........they (the Forest Circus) did not want anyone living in said cabins.

    Some of these cabins were so remote that only a person with knowledge of the area would even know they were there. Yet they felt it necessary to tear them down. Go figure.




  19. #38

    Apr 2005
    colorado
    850
    1 times
    Honorable Mentions (1)

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    I saw a similar thing in southern Colorado at a 1800's ghost town. NFS dozed over 20 beautiful building sites, pushed the debris around, and then salted the area with metal scraps. What a waste!!! But God forbid one of us found an antique bottle or an old coin.
    Specialized Tracking, Searches, Research, Huge Treasure library.
    CZ-20  Arc-geo logger  Garret's  Tessoro's  magnetometer  Spectral Analysis
    Bloodhound tracking  Helicopter services Photography etc.

  20. #39
    Cptbil

    Mar 2003
    Az/NM/Ca/Nv/Tx
    1,402
    9 times

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    Hey Guys!
    Don't you know....?
    It's a Govt.
    " Of the People, for the People and by the People " !

    Now! All we have to do is, to figure out...
    Who ? The FLOCK! "The People Are" ?
    I can say this, because I am already on their S _ _ T List!
    AND!
    Proud Of IT!
    CptBil & Bugs

  21. #40

    Jan 2006
    7

    Re: KOKOWEEF PEAK Questions

    I have lived and worked doing the day-to-day work at Kokoweef Peak for many YEARS since I first arrived there in 1979.
    What questions would you like answered re: "the underground-river legend" and "Kokoweef Peak?"

 

 
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