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Thread: Electronic receiver proves MFD's are not dowsing

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  1. #31
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
    7,820
    250 times
    ~woof~
    Everyone here with a bit of electronic knowledge knows how to make an LRL. In fact some LRL commercial products have shown that no electronic knowledge at all is needed, since the electronic aspect is entirely bogus and therefore nothing has to actually work. In the case of at least one well-known LRL, the only thing electronic was the advertising claim: investigation revealed no actual electronics, not even non-functional electronics.

    In short, anyone who knows what an LRL is, knows how to make one. All it takes is a wire coat hanger, a transistor ripped out of a junk radio, and two inches of scotch tape. To sell it, however, means you have to put a lot of lipstick on that pig and then stand her on a street corner, and not everyone knows how to put thousands of dollars worth of lipstick on a $1 pig much less how to stand her on a street corner.

    At least two people who post here are engineers for well-known companies that manufacture electronic locating apparatus, including both metal detectors, and apparatus capable of locating at a distance. To design an LRL and get it into production would be real easy, but there's this problem: the damn things are frauds. Marketing department is used to selling stuff that works, and can't figure out how to sell a product that's outright fraudulent. And if they do understand how to market LRL's, even so, they don't want fraudulent stuff mixed with the real stuff ruining its reputation.
    There are manufacturers who mix real stuff with fraudulent stuff, for example OKM. An examination of their (presumably) real stuff shows how LRL's have influenced their overall business strategy. Over the long haul they're going to have to stop ruining their reputation on the real stuff by getting rid of the LRL products.

    It sure would be fun to have their engineers posting here...... !! But I predict no designer of real stuff wants to be seen in public defending LRL's.
    Thank you woof for nothing new and no questions to answer or discuss...Art

  2. #32
    us
    Nov 2011
    937
    105 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Art, that guy is a fraud. Just another skeptic alias. He's got three dowsing rods (coat hangers) and can't use them. He has a two-box (worthless), and I'll bet he has one of those dog-terd pendulums that he "designed". You know why he has to keep changing alias identities, because he said he "can't dowse any better than random chance." He wishes so badly that he could take that back, but like the saying goes, "Words, once spoken, fly irrevocably." Now he wants you to believe he is a metal detector designer. Delusional, delirious, demented, drugged.
    Where your heart is, there you will find your treasure.

    O God of compassion, You alone can justify me and Your will never reject me when I, contrite, approach Your Merciful Heart, where no one has ever been refused, even if he were the greatest sinner. For Your Son assured me: Sooner would heaven and earth turn into nothingness than would My mercy fail to embrace a trusting soul.

  3. #33
    LRL fraud debunked

    Dec 2010
    ciudadano del universo, residente de El Paso TX
    BS detector
    1,084
    245 times
    Underground detection
    Signal, you don't even know who or what you're posting about, that's what messing with LRL's has done to your brain. But since you don't even know what you're posting about, you just make up a fairy-tale story and pass it off as fact.

    Art, since he seems to think you're his buddy, perhaps you can PM him and attempt to get him straightened out. Good luck.

    --Toto

    Just for the heck of it, I checked my closet, and by golly there are three wire coat hangers in there! That Signal is amazing, ain't he! Amazing Randi, eat your heart out!
    Last edited by woof!; Apr 01, 2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: because Art got confused about "A.R."

  4. #34
    LRL fraud debunked

    Dec 2010
    ciudadano del universo, residente de El Paso TX
    BS detector
    1,084
    245 times
    Underground detection
    Quote Originally Posted by signal_line View Post
    This is my last post on this subject.
    Don't worry, nobody in their right mind believed you, Mike.

    --Toto

  5. #35
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
    7,820
    250 times
    ~woof~
    Signal, you don't even know who or what you're posting about, that's what messing with LRL's has done to your brain.
    Yes it does..You learn how they work..
    But since you don't even know what you're posting about, you just make up a fairy-tale story and pass it off as fact.
    No..we leave the fairy-tales to the skeptics

    Art, since he seems to think you're his buddy, perhaps you can PM him and attempt to get him straightened out. Good luck.
    Why do I have to do that. I research what Mike tells us and if I like it and try it. It is called exchanging information.

    Just for the heck of it, I checked my closet, and by golly there are three wire coat hangers in there! That Signal is amazing, ain't he! A.R, eat your heart out!
    No..I prefer steak and eggs.
    Don't worry, nobody in their right mind believed you, Mike.
    What’s wrong Sam?...Art

  6. #36

    Mar 2012
    3
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    DJ, I think these guys are slipping into a near-comatose delusion, they don't even know who the heck they're talking to any more! LRLs not only muddle the brain, but apparently inspire conspiratorial thoughts.

    - DarthSam

  7. #37
    LRL fraud debunked

    Dec 2010
    ciudadano del universo, residente de El Paso TX
    BS detector
    1,084
    245 times
    Underground detection
    Pronghorn, good to see you back! I had to edit my post above to spell out "Amazing Randi" so Art could stop thinking that he Art was the "A.R." supposed to be jealous of Signal's amazing skill at long range coathanger counting.

    --SWR

    (it's April 1, may as well humor these poor guys)

  8. #38
    LRL fraud debunked

    Dec 2010
    ciudadano del universo, residente de El Paso TX
    BS detector
    1,084
    245 times
    Underground detection
    Signal, which one of us is really Chuckie trying to protect himself from that upstart competitor Mike, whose gizmo can count coathangers at a thousand miles? Chuckie doesn't know the secret molecular frequency for coathangers, his business is doomed if he can't ruin your business, buy you out for pennies on the dollar, and get your trade secrets.

    --________ (for Signal to fill in the blanks with whatever he imagines)

  9. #39
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
    7,820
    250 times
    ~DarthCarl~
    DJ, I think these guys are slipping into a near-comatose delusion, they don't even know who the heck they're talking to any more! LRLs not only muddle the brain, but apparently inspire conspiratorial thoughts.
    ~woof~
    Pronghorn, good to see you back! I had to edit my post above to spell out "Amazing Randi" so Art could stop thinking that he Art was the "A.R." supposed to be jealous of Signal's amazing skill at long range coathanger counting.

    --SWR

    (it's April 1, may as well humor these poor guys)
    Signal, which one of us is really Chuckie trying to protect himself from that upstart competitor Mike, whose gizmo can count coathangers at a thousand miles? Chuckie doesn't know the secret molecular frequency for coathangers, his business is doomed if he can't ruin your business, buy you out for pennies on the dollar, and get your trade secrets.

    --________ (for Signal to fill in the blanks with whatever he imagines)
    Thank You...Good logical posts...Art

  10. #40
    au
    Dec 2008
    Canberra
    LST, BDHI,Infinium,Sov XS,6000DI Pro SL,Scorpion, V-SAT,Spectrum XLT,Gold Spear,Scorpion,Sand Shark, Compadre,Sierra Madre & quite a a few others.
    292
    23 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    If your LRL is of the type that requires user compatability, works and can locate gold, silver or whatever you are thinking that you want to find then put up or shut up!
    Put on a public demonstration of your device that will prove repeatably that it does what it is claimed to be able to do.
    Once you have done that you will be in the money and be able to solve the worlds mineral and energy needs.

    Just think; No more need to launch satelites into orbit fitted with bazillions of dollars worth of mineral locating X-Ray, Infra Red and thermal Imaging devices to locate our minerals! No more need to bombard the earth and its inhabitants with Radar beams and laser beams, No more need to send exploration teams out into the field equiped with a vast array of electronic locator and mineral analysing devices, No more need for the use of explosive sonar (Fish, Dolphin and Whale destroying) devices in the ocean to locate oil. Just think of all of the benefits your Psychic LRL will have in the developing world.

    I feel it is the best interests of the world and civilisation that the manufacturers of these tiny inexspensive LRLs to prove their worth to the scientific community so that these gadgets can be refined and used for the benefit of all mankind.
    Last edited by Adrian SS; Apr 24, 2012 at 03:34 AM.
    werleibr likes this.

  11. #41
    us
    Jul 2010
    Missouri
    487
    2 times
    Well said adrian ss

  12. #42
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
    7,820
    250 times
    ~Adrian SS~
    If your LRL of the type that requires user compatability, works and can locate gold, silver or whatevere you are thinking that you want to find then put up or shut up!
    Put on a public demonstration of your device that will prove repeatably that it does what it is claimed to be able to do.
    Once you have done that you will be in the money and be able to solve the worlds mineral and energy needs.
    Please tell us when you have found the $350,000 needed to do this experiment properly.

    Just think; No more need to launch satelites into orbit fitted with bazillions of dollars worth of mineral locating X-Ray, Infra Red and thermal Imaging devices to locate our minerals! No more need to bombard the earth and its inhabitants with Radar beams and laser beams, No more need to send exploration teams out into the field equiped with a vast array of electronic locator and mineral analysing devices, No more need for the use of explosive sonar (Fish, Dolphin and Whale destroying) devices in the ocean to locate oil. Just think of all of the benefits your Psychic LRL will have in the developing world.
    I don’t think that is what the hobby of Treasure Hunting should be used for.

    I feel it is the best interests of the world and civilisation that the manufacturers of these tiny inexspensive LRLs to prove their worth to the scientific community so that these gadgets can be refined and used for the benefit of all mankind.
    If the scientific community had an interest in the hobby of treasure hunting it would have been done already...Art

  13. #43
    us
    Oct 2009
    4,669
    2000 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    No art, just like every post you make, your logic is backwards. The scientific community doesn't have interest in DOWSING and LRLs because they have been proven to be complete scams.

  14. #44
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
    7,820
    250 times
    ~Jason in Enid~
    No art, just like every post you make, your logic is backwards. The scientific community doesn't have interest in DOWSING and LRLs because they have been proven to be complete scams.
    Yes I have been told that...No one has presented us with a report that has been excepted by the scientific community..
    Nice finds..It is good to see someone enjoying their hobby...Art

  15. #45
    LRL fraud debunked

    Dec 2010
    ciudadano del universo, residente de El Paso TX
    BS detector
    1,084
    245 times
    Underground detection
    Jason, Art's logic isn't backwards, it's just that there is no logic there at all.

    And, to side with Art just a little bit and to encourage you to think about this matter a bit more scientifically........

    1. Without question, there have been a lot of frauds in dowsing. However it's not like LRL's where fraud is what literally defines the genus.

    2. Scientific investigation has generally supported the thesis that dowsing under controlled and witnessed double-blind conditions produces results no better than chance.

    3. The pseudoscience that often revolves around dowsing (for example that the rods are moved by magnetic fields) is easily disposed of by anyone with some education in such matters. Even without much education in physics, ordinary psychological-linguistic analysis of pseudoscience claims reveals that the content of the writing is of the logic-free word-salad sort, intended to confuse rather than to educate. .....In all fairness to dowsers, when it comes to pseudoscience malarkey, they are not in the same league as the LRL manufacturers who have even gone to the extreme of getting patents awarded on their frauds.

    4. "Dowsing response" is ideomotor response. This is completely obvious from the design of swivelly dowsing rods, which everyone agrees will not work if they're designed like a compass to eliminate ideomotor response or if they're simply clamped to a fixture and begged to follow a target around. Thomas nails it on the head-- it's a "Gravitator". You tilt it and gravity, not the target, does the rest. ......Furthermore dowsing response has been the subject of numerous scientific investigations and the outcome is what anyone who has applied scientific thinking to the matter already figured out: dowsing response is ideomotor response.

    5. Most people lack the ability to reason about things in a systematic manner. In the case of rod dowsing, the physical sensation of rod movement is that the rods are being moved by an unseen force since the user is not consciously causing the rod to move (other than in fraudulent demos). The unseen force really does exist: it's subconsciously controlled motor activity. So the reports of dowsers who have no scientific understanding of what's happening when they're dowsing, when they report that the rods move on their own, are entirely understandable. .......I have experienced it myself, and the sensation that the rods move themselves can be utterly compelling.

    6. We all know lots of stuff that has accumulated in our subconscious that isn't conveniently accessible to our conscious mind. Put that together with the principle of ideomotor response, and without the need to invoke anything mysterious, the idea that non-blinded dowsing can be effective poses no particular problem for scientific thinking. For example, water dowsers may or may not have formal education in how groundwater works, but they may have a lot of accumulated insight into the matter. So they go out there and dowse a well with skill comparable to what a groundwater geologist might achieve, or even better. Scientific reasoning about dowsing leads not to the conclusion that it can't work, but that it can be expected to work.

    * * * * * * * * *

    So the controversy over dowsing can be narrowed down to the issue of blinded dowsing, the only kind that I find interesting since the other kind poses no challenge to scientific reasoning. Double-blinded with cameras rolling, and suddenly dowsing's got a really bad track record.

    This doesn't prove that blinded dowsing is all malarkey, but it's powerful evidence that the power needed to do it is not under the control of the dowser. The moment you see a dowser bragging that they can do this or that, you've what I derisively call "a claimant". Someone who is scared schittless of any proposition that would put it to the test, because in plain English they're all hot air and they know they ain't got squat.

    So now we've narrowed it down even further. People who claim they can do this or that when it comes to dowsing, when it comes down to put up or shut up, it's all a bluff. They don't put up, but amazingly they don't shut up either. They paint the whole thing with a picture of fakery and fraud. So they have no excuse when scientifically thinking people call it fakery and fraud: the fakers and fraudsters are the very people who provided the evidence.

    * * * * * *

    Meanwhile back at the ranch, I suppose everyone has had personal experiences which defy any rational explanation. Things that are mysterious anomalies. Maybe seeing in detail an event before it actually happened. Maybe suddenly running for your life and not even knowing why, and 8 seconds later the spot where you standing gets hit by an artillery shell. You come out of surgery, the anesthetic wears off, and you tell the surgeon everything that happened from where the eyes of the surgeon saw it. People who've messed with Ouija boards usually have some truly bizarre stories to tell, and I mean credible stories. .......In real human life, stuff like this happens. In all cultures, all religions. Information somehow got into a human brain that shouldn't have been there, and there's no good explanation how it happened, only speculative theories which nobody's found a way to prove.

    The moment you can admit to how it really is, that this kind of stuff happens, then admitting that even blinded dowsing may be effective beyond mere chance should pose no particular difficulty from a scientific perspective.

    I would argue that the fact that braggarts cain't do squat when their bluff is called reveals something of the nature of how such stuff happens. Something about the Universe evidently doesn't like false claimants and liars? That's not exactly a novel idea, it's been a common theme among religious prophets for thousands of years.

    * * * * * * * *

    So, is there any empirical evidence in favor of blinded dowsing? Without reciting my own personal experience, I'd say yes. It's not "proof", but I'd argue favorable evidence. And that's the use of dowsing for locating underground utilities. I happen to have worked in the underground detection industry for over 30 years, so I get to hear about a few things that you don't usually read about in forums.

    1. Dowsing for underground utilities used to be common practice. It's less common now because of improvements in technological underground locating apparatus and greater concern for the liability issues that can happen with a bad locate. Nobody wants to defend themselves by saying, "Well, I dowsed it."

    2. I've never heard of a utility dowser using an LRL. In nearly every case, it's a couple of simple L-rods, often just bent coat-hangers or welding rods without so much as a handle bearing.

    3. I've never heard of a utility dowser bragging that they could dowse this or that. Evidently, the moment you claim that the power is yours, it disappears.

    4. They're in almost every case rational thinkers who dowse for no reason other than they get useful results from it. Not into UFO's or "zero point energy" and to the extent they've got any theory at all as to how it works, it's usually a pretty simple theory (although often dead wrong). No word-salad pseudoscience.

    5. The "Blue Book" is the water works "bible", nowadays available online, a search engine will get you there in a hurry. You can find my company's products there, and those of our competitors, too--- and lo and behold, a dowsing rod as well! (They're not about to shame themselves by listing an LRL, even though they could make thousands of profit on every sale thereof.) Looks like a decent dowsing rod for a reasonable price, and their description of the thing has an air of sobriety that one would expect for a useful working tool.

    6. In the underground locating industry, there are locating competitions. Do any of the contestants ever use a dowsing rod? Sorry, haven't heard one way or the other, but I strongly suspect not. When put to the test, dowsing has a long track record of failing miserably. The problem is not "skeptic waves" as some can't-do-it whiners insist, the problem is that under test conditions the ideomotor misfires. In a contest, you darn well better be bringing your subconscious knowledge into your conscious mind as fast as you can and reasoning about it consciously as fast as you can. And if that's a skill you ain't got, better not to pay the registration fee, you're gonna get pulverized by people who know what the heck they're doing.

    7. Dowsing rods are merely a tool for routing subconscious knowledge, and they are certainly not the only such tool. In principle, a real whiz could just walk out there and do the locate by pointing at it with his index finger. But I ain't heard of it happening and don't expect it to happen.

    **********************

    This might have been a better essay for the dowsing forum, but the issue was raised here so that's where I responded to it.

    --Toto

 

 
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