The Lost Adams Diggings

[Springfield]

Springfield:

Just wanted to say thanks for that link. Very thought provoking and it
has a ring of truth.

You're welcome, leg. I would imagine with most or all of these legends, the truth is seldom as it seems.

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[lastleg]

I have read that assayers in that era could identify the district a sample came
from. This is the type information I've been looking for in the Adams yarn. If
we only had a specimen but no chance of that now.

[Springfield]

I was hoping that this forum had serious researchers who are looking for the LAD, but it appears that this is not true. A researcher would have understood what I have presented. I have no theory only information that has been backed up by years of field work and research from private collections in libraries across the country. I don't care what you believe in. Obviously, all you want to do is share stories with each other and have no inclination to do research. Believe what you will and keep dreaming about the LAD because that is all you will ever have.

Adios from a successful prospector!

Pete

We were hoping for the same, Pete. If you'll notice, Mr. Research, you are the only one here who has claimed a certain knowledge about this particular campfire tale. You claim to have found the Adams site, and by repeated inference, the gold. You offer nothing but double talk to back it up.

Nobody asked you to reveal the location of your big secret, no matter how strenuously you waved the 'I Found It!' flag in the readers' faces. You brag about your years of field work and library time, but what about the 'real' LAD seekers - you know, the seasoned, dedicated prospectors, cowboys and others that really did spend years in the hills searching every canyon and ravine in two states. These guys didn't check out canyons during day hikes - they lived there until they were satisfied, then moved on to the next site. Hundreds of these types for decades, tramping back and forth over your target area and many others. But you claim to have information nobody else did, or were smarter than those who have covered your ideas decades ago, and were able to find the gold that others have missed. Curious.

I suggest you write a book about the whole thing so that a wider audience can appreciate what you've done. Be prepared for that wider audience to demand some verification of your claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I hope your reluctance to discuss your years of work isn't due to a lack of confidence in its veracity, but that's what it's sounding like.

As you yourself posted 8/29/2008, 'Oh, by the way, I'm currently cruising the Med on my private yacht contemplating turning my research talents toward finding sunken treasure'. How's that working for you?

[Springfield]

....Sounds to me like you're just an armchair reader of stories....

Believe what you wish.

[lastleg]

Peterm:

If you are having trouble translating the Spanish Archives not to worry.
Just download it on this site and we will do it free gratis.

[alaskabill]

All right gentlemen. I apologize if I seem smug. I do not mean to come across that way. But, let me ask you how you would handle telling about finding the canyon without revealing its location ........

..... to show a picture of the canyon would be to expose its location. All of you are smart enough to locate the canyon on google maps from a picture. Also, I would not be surprised if some of you have been there and just didn't know it.

Peterm,

I do not think you or anyone can tell me from a posted image from GoogleEarth exactly where that feature is located, much less whether it is in NM or not, but I may be wrong. If I am wrong, here is an opportunity for you to do that. You tell me where the feature below is located and I will confirm it for you here. The only reason I asked you to post a screen shot of your canyon is so that I can understand your conclusion from my understanding of the evidence available.

I think many of us are here to discuss and exchange the rationale of understanding the evidence available and conclusions we draw. I may never get to NM to search, but it is a lot of fun trying to solve a mystery. To think that the "treasure" or all the gold is still there is probably naive, but the search and solution to the mystery is almost if not more rewarding to some.

Here is a "test" image from GoogleEarth. The image is oriented such that the top is north and it is in New Mexico. What are the Lat/Lon coordinates for its location?



If you are unable to tell me the coordinates, then I think you can feel safe by posting an image of your canyon here on the forum for all of us to view. As a serious researcher, I would like to try and understand why you concluded that that canyon fits the descriptions as the site of the LAD.

Bill

[alaskabill]

Here is a little larger image

[BudP]

Hey Guys,

Some hints that may help; most that I have talked to and read, think they are looking for two pointed mountains sitting next to each other. If you look at a Mexican peloncillo (sugar-loaf cone) you will see a cone that is flat topped for its top third.

Also, even though the air was much clearer in 1864, 'Dos Peloncillos' had to be in the correct place to be seen at 100plus miles. If they were below the absolute top of the range on your side, they would be invisible against the background mountain. If they were on the other side of the range/ ridge-line, they would be blocked from sight. This means the two cones were located at the highest visible point.

(Today, an answer to why no pair of cones are visible could be that the air is too poluted to see far enough. It could also be that, being obviosly volcanic in nature, one of the cones 'popped' its' top. I have checked and details of volcanic activity in the mid-1800s is sketchy and guesswork at best).

Proof; Adams and Davidson ran from the indians, in terror. They traveled mostly at night. Eight-eleven days later (according to which story you like) they reached the future site of Fort Apache (according to your favorite rendition) after traveling DOWNHILL to safety, toward the west; Brewer, hiding on the opposite side of the massacre, ran in terror away from it, DOWNHILL, towards the east. After 4 to six days (Choose your favorite) he ended up near the banks of the Rio Grande, in the vicinity of Laguna or perhaps Soccoro.

Adams-Davidson westward downhill to safety, Brewer eastward downhill to safety. The 'diggings' AND Dos Peloncillos had to be at the top of the range.

The biggest and best clue, IMHO, is the date of the find by Adams' party. It brings up a fifty-mile discrepancy in where to start the search. It is no wonder nothing was remembered by Adams, who at best, had never been there and was not in a position to ask the correct questions.....Sorry about the cryptic. You have to look a little bit.

Good luck,

Bud

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo BudP and everyone,

BudP wrote

It is no wonder nothing was remembered by Adams, who at best, had never been there and was not in a position to ask the correct questions.....

Are you saying that Adams never was at the Adams Diggings? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning my friends, one important point apparently not generally considered. "You do not run at night in Mt country, even with a full moon. that is an excellent way to commit suicide, or become seriously injured, which is the same thing in the end. It is even very difficult just cautiously walking. The Indians were handicapped the same way.

Sooo, perhaps many are looking too far away from the fort site??

As for traveling at night to avoid the Indians, hmm, they were pros at tracking, they had to be to survive from hunting and other war parties, etc. Some one traveling at night would be unable to take care in covering their movement sign properly, it would be a 'neon sign' in those days.

I rather suspect that the Indians knew just how many were in the party and so looked for any survivors, after all, you do not just attack an enemy until you know his strength. The Apache almost never attacked frontally, always from ambush. He was well aware of tribal man power attrition.

Side thingie, please don't believe that the Indians are still guarding it, or the LDM, they have modernized just as we have, and know the full value of Precious metals and Yankee dollars, witness the explosive growth of the various 'Indian Casinos'.

If they had it, or knew where it was, they would simply file on it today for complete potection..

Incidentally, Mexican piloncios / brown sugar cones are fairly pointed. They are generally cast in wooden forms and this form allows for easier removal. The same as for assay buttons.

Just curious.


Don Jose de La Mancha

[Springfield]

No volcanic activity in the American southwest for the past 1,000 years (south of Mount Taylor, near Grants, NM). Earthquakes? Yes. Volcanic eruptions? No.

There are occasionally areas of hazy, polluted air in the southwest today, near the bigger cities in the winter due to temperature inversions. For the most part, as residents will attest, the air quality is uncommonly clear and excellent most of the time. I've lived here for 36 years and that is my experience.

[Oroblanco]

Good morning my friends, one important point apparently not generally considered. "You do not run at night in Mt country, even with a full moon. that is an excellent way to commit suicide, or become seriously injured, which is the same thing in the end. It is even very difficult just cautiously walking. The Indians were handicapped the same way.

Sooo, perhaps many are looking too far away from the fort site??

As for traveling at night to avoid the Indians, hmm, they were pros at tracking, they had to be to survive from hunting and other war parties, etc. Some one traveling at night would be unable to take care in covering their movement sign properly, it would be a 'neon sign' in those days.

I rather suspect that the Indians knew just how many were in the party and so looked for any survivors, after all, you do not just attack an enemy until you know his strength. The Apache almost never attacked frontally, always from ambush. He was well aware of tribal man power attrition.

Side thingie, please don't believe that the Indians are still guarding it, or the LDM, they have modernized just as we have, and know the full value of Precious metals and Yankee dollars, witness the explosive growth of the various 'Indian Casinos'.

If they had it, or knew where it was, they would simply file on it today for complete potection..

Incidentally, Mexican piloncios / brown sugar cones are fairly pointed. They are generally cast in wooden forms and this form allows for easier removal. The same as for assay buttons.

Just curious.


Don Jose de La Mancha

Well, whether they were running or simply moving as fast as they were able to under the circumstances, there are other instances where people have attempted to flee Indians by sneaking away under cover of darkness. The story of the Lost Cabin mine (the Wyoming one) includes such an escape story. It is difficult to estimate just how far a man could get, traveling at night, in rough country when we do not know what kind of brush or other obstacles were in the path. Even the time of year is a factor in such estimations, for night is longer in winter than in summer, and whether the moon was shining brightly or was it overcast or new moon conditions when visibility would be very poor. This particular question is a most thorny one in my opinion.

Oroblanco

[Springfield]

..... It is difficult to estimate just how far a man could get, traveling at night, in rough country when we do not know what kind of brush or other obstacles were in the path. Even the time of year is a factor in such estimations, for night is longer in winter than in summer, and whether the moon was shining brightly or was it overcast or new moon conditions when visibility would be very poor. This particular question is a most thorny one in my opinion.

Oroblanco

Some southwestern terrain can be traversed at night, especially with enough moonlight. Some cannot under any circumstances at night. If you knew the terrain in question, you could make a judgement. 'Thorny'? Haha, yeah - lots of those to avoid. Good one, Oro.

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: you both are correct, but as I understand the situation, it was rough country, how else to explain the hidden canyon? If it had been a solitary one, it would easily have been singled out and found. I am enclosing pictures from the Tayopa complex, which I visualize as being somewhat similar to the area. You certainly would't case, to run at night in here. So the first few days of travel may be discounted ??

Your remark on the party of Prospectors returning from Calif with their gold being ambushed and wiped out reminded me of a similar story that a now deceased friend of the family once told me.

He was a self taught engr and surveyor. Once, when he was laying out a road in the Mal Pais of north eastern Az. in the 20`or 30`s, he finished up his sightings, entered them in his book. Then, since he didnīt have anymore to do that day, he commenced to look towards the south with his telescope across the etremely rough canyon. As he swung it through out itīs arc, he suddenly saw a low rock wall on a point on the opposite edge. He carefully noted itīs bearings in his book then continued looking at it. He said it appeared to be a semi circle about 18 ft, with the open end overlooking the cliff.

He thought nothing more of it until much later when he heard that a party of prospectors had been wiped out in that area by the Indians and the gold left behind.. He rechecked his notes and then returned to the same spot where he had taken the readings. He set up his theodolite then swept the area. The wall was nowhere to be seen. He spent two days looking for it with no success. I asked him why he didnīt go over to where he had last seen it. He replied Ļyou have to see that mal pais country to understand why I didnīt go over after not finding it with the telescope, itīs nearly impossible to travel inĻ. He said that it could wait until they opened another route in the southern section.Ļ

As a result he never did find it. Later he realized that the it had been the lighting that brought the wall out of the background. Perhaps only a few days a year, at a certain time, was it visible from the spot. So the lonely remains of the prospectors are still waiting to be found.

Hmmm. ŋ Do you suppose?

So do your google work gentlemen, it is a small semicircle of rocks forming a low wall out on a point, in the mal pais country on the south edge of a canyon..

Don Jose de La Mancha

[BudP]

HOLA amigo BudP and everyone,

BudP wrote

It is no wonder nothing was remembered by Adams, who at best, had never been there and was not in a position to ask the correct questions.....

Are you saying that Adams never was at the Adams Diggings? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Hey Oroblanco,

Established in 1860, Fort Fauntleroy-Fort Lyon were at the current site of Wingate until 1862. The New Mexico Volunteers manning the post left it in mid-62 and moved the post FIFTY miles southeastward. It was renamed 'Wingate' and kept that name and location until 1868 when the troops moved back to the original Fauntleroy/Lyons site. They kept the name Fort Wingate.

Now,...assuming the Adams diggings supply party arrived at Wingate in 1863-64-65-66 or 1867, they went to the SECOND Wingate location, not having a clue it would be moved 50 miles northwest in 1868.

It is pretty sketchy what year Adams (or whatever cronies/backers) returned to search for the gold but it was certainly not before the 1870's. What was the ONLY solid landmark to start the search? Fort Wingate! The searchers trying to re-locate the diggings would not know they needed to ask; 'Hey fellas, we're searching for a lost gold diggings and could you tell us if this fort, which is the KEY starting point, has ever been moved fifty miles away'

So,....a hundred-plus years of searchers have inadvertantly started their search fifty miles from the correct key place,.....in some of the roughest country on the planet. Those guys were riding horses. They may as well have been starting the search from a different continent. How many 'searchers' today realize this switch happened? How many use the CURRENT Wingate site as a starting point or a main locator?

What do you think?

Bud

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo,
I would think that many are not aware that the location of the fort was moved and many have used the newer, incorrect fort location as their key landmark which has resulted in numerous failures to relocate the diggings. It is seemingly "little" details like this which help keep lost mines lost. Right offhand I know of a very similar situation with the Lost Cabin mine of Wyoming, and fort Reno; the true location of the fort is almost a little "dirty secret" that is unpublished.

Thank you for explaining, and I hope you have a great day!
Oroblanco

[BudP]

Hola Oroblanco,

God save us from people who don't research. They only parrot the easy info as gospel and leave their common sense at the door.

Bud

[Springfield]

The forts and military camps in the Southwest frequently changed locations following the need for their controversial 'services' from the settlers who pioneered the region. Many forts had multiple locations. Wingate was one of these and this fact should impact LAD searchers, providing of course that Wingate was the destination for the 'supply party' that is so much a part of some of the LAD yarns. There were other Southwest forts in the LAD time era of course, and there are versions of the legend that excluded any mention of forts. There are many LAD stars to hitch your wagon to.

[Oroblanco]

Hmm - well I got the idea that if I could figure out the exact site where Adams was picked up by the cavalry, between that point and Wingate I would be able to really narrow down the search area. Unfortunately there are several different versions of where Adams was picked up, and one in which this part of the story is left out entirely so that angle won't work either.

Ron Feldman once appeared on an episode of the old TV series 'Unsolved Mysteries' with a site they said was the LAD, hinting that John Mitchell had found it and removed the gold cache, replacing it with a piece of RR rail (as are often used for mini-anvils). I couldn't buy that one, for there ought to be a little gold left in the canyon and apparently there was none. Placer miners are not so good that they get every speck, but that hasn't prevented several folks from claiming they found the LAD. (A similar situation to the LDM)
Oroblanco

[Springfield]

..... Placer miners are not so good that they get every speck...
Oroblanco

Jacob Snively (frequently identified as the 'Dutchman' of the LAD party) claimed that he panned his 60 pounds of placer gold from an area the size of a wagon bed, a couple feet deep, before he left the LAD group due to Indian fears. In diggings this rich, you can bet there would have been much left for later exploitation, and plenty missed by them too, I imagine.

Snively rode into Pinos Altos with the gold in the 'early 1860's'. Supposedly, the story he told in Pinos Altos was that the placer came from a location 125 miles to the north. James McKenna's Black Range Tales gives much more information about the 'Snively Diggings', but it's all second and third-hand. Good story nonetheless, as is Dobie's LAD version. Of course, there was undoubtedly motivation for Snively, Baxter, McKenna and the Pinos Altos crowd he told to bend the truth, as in all surviving hearsay about lost mines and hidden treasure.

Sidenote: Snively also was the original discoveror of the major placer strike in Pinos Altos in 1860. Sounds like he had a nose for gold.