Im calling out TreasureForce for their LAD claims

[cactusjumper]

RdTTT:

Those names are familiar - although I have not read Enchanted Vagabonds. I will look for it, to add to my Cocos collection.

There is a book about a lost city (it is titled Lost City?) in Mexico that I believe was written by the Lambs. I have the paperback - and I'll confess that, like so many volumes I own, I've never gotten around to actually reading it. A personal failing, perhaps, but a common habit that keeps booksellers such as myself in rice and beans.

Good luck to all,

~ The Old Bookaroo

OB,

The name of the book is "Quest For The Lost City". It can also be found in hard cover.

It's well worth the price.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd coffee time Ole Bookarooo, Correct, they also wrote about that adventure looking for the lost "Golden Book" in the Yucatan, partially responsible for my backpacking trip into the same region. Enchanted Vagabonds" is available for free reading at ==>

Here is a picture of their boat in the Adventurers club===> About The Adventurers' Club of Los Angeles

Jose

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, as disgustingly happwns all too often, you are correct ?

Jode

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello Crow

Fascinating stuff!

Now that is what you call a holiday!!!

Oh what many of us would give just to have a glimpse of 'that' world (the one of international cache recovery) where mystery, secrecy, danger, thrill and risk versus reward are the order of the day, and it will all determine whether an expedition is successful or otherwise. But most of us will never do so unless we happen to bump into one of those 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 and they take a shine to us and show us what it's all about.........

 

[Springfield]

OB,

The name of the book is "Quest For The Lost City". It can also be found in hard cover.

It's well worth the price.

Take care,

Joe

A pal recently highly recommended this book - and offered to loan it to me! He said it's a 'killer read', even though he told me the Lost City was determined by Central America archaeologists to not really be lost after all. I've got 'Lincoln Lawyer' to finish first, then a Shackelton book - after that I'll ignore another stack of unread ones and maybe check this one out.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hello OB

So kind of you to take the time and effort to detail the information about all the various wonderful books that I shall most definitely be looking into and purchasing. Thank you again for sharing you knowledge and thoughts.

Regarding Valverde's Treasure by Honigsbaum, I've read that and actually attempted to contact the author about some discrepencies in his book. He declined to comment when I suggested some of 'his' information was to be found in Peter Lourie's book - Sweat of the Sun, Tears of the Moon. But it is a good read as you say. I did some further research following on from it, but hit dead-ends when trying to establish various aspects of the whole Llanganatis mystery. I have also obtained a copy of Southward Ho! which, as you again point out, is a very good read.

The one overriding success of the internet, is how so many different people from different walks of like, in different parts of the globe, in different circumstances, can come together and share their thoughts, experiences and views in a constructive manner.

Thank you again for taking the time out to help a fellow reading enthusiast.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hi Unclematt

I have seen on this thread that you have been asking whether anyone knows/knew as to where Snively may have disposed of the gold he allegedly brought out of the possible LAD site if he indeed was the mysterious 'German'. I cannot help you with this but I will tell you that I contacted Jack Purcell after reading his definitve book "Myth, Mystery & Madness, The Lost Adams Diggings", and asked him about various points which still puzzled me about this brilliant but extremely frustrating story. Snively was supposed to be a mining man with good local knowledge of Arizona and New Mexico. He was said to have got out of the LAD before the party was attacked by the native Americans. If he really did get away with a substantial haul of gold and then pitched up in various places in both states (AZ and NM), surely he knew the way back to the site or even the general area. It is said he then went to prospect at other sites and ignored the LAD. Does this sound reasonable or practical?

The above was just one of the queries I raised with Mr Purcell and of course this is all based on us accepting that Adams was telling the truth in the first place.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Springfield:

Is the Shackleton book Endurance? A true classic! I was given a copy for Christmas. Although I've read it before and own several other copies, I sat right down and started reading it again. What a book!

Shackleton, by the way, tried to organize a Cocos Island venture to raise money - one of several schemes he thought up. So, our Thread comes more or less full circle...

Good luck to all,

~ The Old Bookaroo

 

[Springfield]

Springfield:

Is the Shackleton book Endurance? A true classic! I was given a copy for Christmas. Although I've read it before and own several other copies, I sat right down and started reading it again. What a book!

Shackleton, by the way, tried to organize a Cocos Island venture to raise money - one of several schemes he thought up. So, our Thread comes more or less full circle...

Good luck to all,

~ The Old Bookaroo

Yes, the Carroll & Graf 2002 printing - softcover with all the Hurley photographs. I'd read this years ago but saw this mint copy for $3.95, delivered, and snatched it! I can't wait to read it again. I didn't know the Cocos Island connection.

 

[UncleMatt]

Hi Unclematt

I have seen on this thread that you have been asking whether anyone knows/knew as to where Snively may have disposed of the gold he allegedly brought out of the possible LAD site if he indeed was the mysterious 'German'. I cannot help you with this but I will tell you that I contacted Jack Purcell after reading his definitve book "Myth, Mystery & Madness, The Lost Adams Diggings", and asked him about various points which still puzzled me about this brilliant but extremely frustrating story. Snively was supposed to be a mining man with good local knowledge of Arizona and New Mexico. He was said to have got out of the LAD before the party was attacked by the native Americans. If he really did get away with a substantial haul of gold and then pitched up in various places in both states (AZ and NM), surely he knew the way back to the site or even the general area. It is said he then went to prospect at other sites and ignored the LAD. Does this sound reasonable or practical?

The above was just one of the queries I raised with Mr Purcell and of course this is all based on us accepting that Adams was telling the truth in the first place.

Jack lives near me here in NM, and I have his book as well. But it lacks any definitive proof that "the Dutchman" ever sold any gold in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's. I would love to think that was true, but I'm looking for evidence. It appears that there may be none, it was just something that was written, or said, and it became accepted as fact over time. Can anyone point to a reference other than The Black Range Tales, page 39?

 

[UncleMatt]

And what's all this off-topic book talk? This is a feudin' thread!

 

[Springfield]

...If he (Snively) really did get away with a substantial haul of gold and then pitched up in various places in both states (AZ and NM), surely he knew the way back to the site or even the general area. It is said he then went to prospect at other sites and ignored the LAD. Does this sound reasonable or practical?

The above was just one of the queries I raised with Mr Purcell and of course this is all based on us accepting that Adams was telling the truth in the first place.

It's a good question. If the LAD event happened in 1864 as most folks believe, then the Apache problem was enough reason to stay away from the alleged canyon - maybe for years. The Apaches surely would have been watching things there if there was such a rich placer site attracting whites. How long to wait? Snively was a guy who did things all over AZ, CA, M and TX. The so called Snively Expedition of 1867 was one thing, three years after the alleged LAD - it's talked about in another thread. Then, in 1871, Snively was killed by Apaches in AZ - seven years after the LAD. It's reasonable to speculate that he would have back-burnered the placer site for seven years, considering the Indian trouble in the territory during those years.

 

[UncleMatt]

I've been thinking about Springfield's observation that there was reason to doubt anyone in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's would have had ten thousand dollars to buy 'ole Dutchie boy's gold. Can anyone offer any counter argument?

If you stop considering that part of the tale, which appears to have originated with Black Range Tales, what does that do to the already shaky ground the LAD is built on? Anything but good.

 

[Springfield]

I've been thinking about Springfield's observation that there was reason to doubt anyone in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's would have had ten thousand dollars to buy 'ole Dutchie boy's gold. Can anyone offer any counter argument?

If you stop considering that part of the tale, which appears to have originated with Black Range Tales, what does that do to the already shaky ground the LAD is built on? Anything but good.

You have to realize that this aspect of the legend is just one brick in the wall. With so many versions, clues, characters, details, landmarks, etc. to choose from, it's hard to identify solid ground. That said, I still think Snively is an interesting angle.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Jack lives near me here in NM, and I have his book as well. But it lacks any definitive proof that "the Dutchman" ever sold any gold in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's. I would love to think that was true, but I'm looking for evidence. It appears that there may be none, it was just something that was written, or said, and it became accepted as fact over time. Can anyone point to a reference other than The Black Range Tales, page 39?

I think there was merely some hearsay that a German chap rolled into Pinos Altos with a sack full of gold ore. When questioned, he merely gave rough and ambiguous directions as to where he had come across the site and after resting for some days, merely moved on.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

It's a good question. If the LAD event happened in 1864 as most folks believe, then the Apache problem was enough reason to stay away from the alleged canyon - maybe for years. The Apaches surely would have been watching things there if there was such a rich placer site attracting whites. How long to wait? Snively was a guy who did things all over AZ, CA, M and TX. The so called Snively Expedition of 1867 was one thing, three years after the alleged LAD - it's talked about in another thread. Then, in 1871, Snively was killed by Apaches in AZ - seven years after the LAD. It's reasonable to speculate that he would have back-burnered the placer site for seven years, considering the Indian trouble in the territory during those years.

I am afraid that the 'Apache Problem' is simply a misnomer. The greatest chief at the time in 1864 - old Mangas Coloradas - could not keep the miners and settlers out when significant amounts of gold was found in his beloved Pinos Altos, so a considerable sight as is alleged that the LAD was/is, would simply have been too much of a temptation and the Apaches would have been resisted no matter how dangerous and delicate the situation. If this Snively character was a miner, would he really have scratched around the south-western states if he knew such a fabulous site existed?

Why oh why prospect all over the place and risk someone else discover the Diggins?
When good country, valuable minerals or water were discovered, the Apaches were considered a real threat, but one that had to be overcome and the prizes at stake soon attracted enough people to build sizeable towns/settlements or groups. Even in the 1860s when the Apaches were very formidable, the Pinos Altos site, Silver City, Fort Bowie and others were established in their heartlands and the Apaches although indignant and resisting, could not do much other than keep a wary eye out for each other.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I've been thinking about Springfield's observation that there was reason to doubt anyone in Pinos Altos in the early 1860's would have had ten thousand dollars to buy 'ole Dutchie boy's gold. Can anyone offer any counter argument?

If you stop considering that part of the tale, which appears to have originated with Black Range Tales, what does that do to the already shaky ground the LAD is built on? Anything but good.

It might be said that a telling point in the whole mystery, is that when the Adams of legend again started looking for 'his' site in the 1870s and onwards, some of the better documented searches suggest that the expeditions were actually focusing on the supposed kettle/pot which was said to have been buried under the hearth in the burnt out cabin. If there was only the one pot and not a whole site, it would explain many, many things.

I would say that anyone wishing to evidence the story, needs to verify any official reports of 'massacres', parties of travellers coming into any trading posts or newspaper articles about unexplained deaths or disappearances. Very tedious and laborious I know; might not even get a single relevant item, but the story is a mere mis-direction until other more pertinent facts can be established.

Only my opinion of course.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I would also just like to add another observation. It is documented that the Rancheria of the venerable chief Mangas Coloradas was well known to the US Army in the 1850s. The army would issue rations and 'gifts' to his band of eastern Chiricahuas in recognition of his allowing safe passage of American citizens and personnel during the war with Mexico in the previous decade. His Rancheria (well the main one where they planted seasonal crops and retired to in times of distress), was by the San Juan river in the foothills of those same-named mountains. Of course the Apaches were nomads and had numerous favourable lodging sites, but the wily old chief was murdered in 1864 - at about the same time the LAD story takes places, so he could not have had other sites he visited after this date. Mangas was nobody's fool and wanted his beloved Pinos Altos site back more than any other, but he would never have met any troops near a site so valuable as the 'LAD' if he could have helped it as he knew full well the hypnotizing allure of gold.

Now I am rambling on, but it is inconceivable that the unreconstructed old chief Nana was the one who attacked the party with his Apaches. He lived until 1896 and had numerous visitors whilst in exile and never revealed any links (bearing in mind he told about his leading role in the legendary "Nana's Raid" after the tragic annihilation of Chief Victorio and his band at Tres Castillas in 1880). The Chiricahuas were hated and feared by all the other Apaches and native bands in the southwest, if they had a site such as the LAD, the other 'free' tribes would have most certainly have knew about them, and informed the authorities after most had settled on reservations from the 1870s onwards.

Less than 80 years ago, an aged Chiricahua warrior from Geronimo's last band of holdouts, accompanied a Norwegian explorer into the Sierra Madre mountains of old Mexico to look for the remanants of the last Apaches still living according to the old ways of their ancestors. He was a mighty warrior in his time and even though he had become aware of western ways in the intervening half a century since surrendering and captivity, he still clung to the old beliefs and culture. One night in camp he told a story of when Geronimo was with this final group of Apaches in 1886, he told them about a cave in a particular place which held an accumulated amount of gold which had been taken from various groups/individuals that the Chiricahuas had attacked over the years. He said only in extreme circumstances could they access it, and even then the most trustworthy warrior. He knew their time was up but mentioned it to his most loyal warriors. The old warrior did not try to look for it with the Norwegian explorer. Another old time warrior regaled the noted writer of Apache memoirs - Eve Ball - that when Victorio's band was mostly destroyed by Mexican forces, Nana survived and carried out his legendary raid in order to get ammunition, mounts and supplies for the diminished band of survivors. He entered New Mexico and if he had access to such a fabulous site such as the LAD, he would have collected any available gold in order to trade with 'friendly' ranchers in Mexico for what was needed. He had too few warriors to try and risk their lives for nothing if he had ready-made access to a supply of gold with which to buy time and some sort of safety.

 

[UncleMatt]

Is anyone aware of any other source for the story of the Dutchman selling his gold in Pinos Altos other than Black Range Tales?

Also, I had a meeting with the Pueblo of Acoma yesterday. It went extremely well, and I was able to interest a couple of the tribe in pursuing the LAD. I will be meeting with them in the next few weeks over at the malpais near Grants, NM, so they can show me a site they found that they said had strange and intriguing markings on rock faces. I hope to get some photos and will post. They also told me of several treasure tales involving the malpais that I had never heard of before. Fascinating stuff.

 

[UncleMatt]

I too think there is a lot of evidence that shows the LAD is just a tale. However, one has to wonder why Adam's and others would return to search for anything many years later if it was just a lie. Do men go out of their way to spend a lot of time and money searching for something they know does not exist? Not sane ones! That is the one thing that leads me to think there may be something to the LAD...