Lost Adams Diggings

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET gpg!!

Please do continue, sounds like you have some interesting research done!
Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, I am glad that you set up a cuppa for me also, OR DID YOU??

GPG, the Apache were certainly no saints, they had been killing, torturing, and simply robbing for centuries as a way of life, which tends to explain somewhat the massacre - revenge.

Incidentally they, and the Yaqui, are counted among my personal friends. I lived with the Yaqui for 5 years and they handed down many stories of the Apache to me.

Our surveyor, and friend, is a direct decendent of one of the Apache hold outs in the sierras. We have had some very interesting talks over a campfire and coffee - fortunately it was not oro's sock coffee, or he wouldn't have survived.

They, and the Pimas, always considered the Apache as second rate fighters, simply because the Apache had learned of 'Attrition"and most generally opened an attack from ambush, not as our present movie trends show.

They, like the Yaqui, would not have survived with out their women, who actually did all of the work. On my trips in the Bacatetes with the Yaquis, I was amazed at how little they knew of survival and simple camping techniques.

Please keep up with your posting, I find it very interesting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

You are 100% correct about the Apache of old. That's no reflection on the Apache of today.

When the Apache Trail was being built, they used a lot of Apache workers. They were said to be hard working and reliable. In those days, that was quite an endorsement.

Their method of fighting was to avoid, at all costs, any encounter that might cost them any lives. On the other hand, if death was inevitable, they died bravely. Superior numbers and ambush was always their rule for any combat. They lived their lives by instilling fear in......everyone.

They were run out of every place they ever migrated to......eventually. Most tribes considered them poor warriors and pitched battles usually ended with them running for their lives. Raiding and what the women could gather was their primary source of sustenance.

They were equal opportunity killers and killed anything or anyone that crossed their path. The results of that trait, was that the people who were their victims, felt no compunction over crushing them completely. Those who tried to treat them in a civilized manner were usually from back east, and had never had any contact with them.

Had they not been removed to Florida, there might not be any Apache left today.

Take care,

Joe

 

[filemaker01]

OK Everyone, I have absolute proof of the location of the Lost Adams and even though I posted images over a year ago, I didn't mention the exact location because I needed more research but my website explains everything now. Once you see the website you will understand why the canyon was in fact an ancient Apache Chief burial grounds and not only that but there are effigy mounds built by native ancient Americans that rival the pyramids that line up with the stars. The White House, Dept of Parks and Recreation, Law Enforcement and National Geographic besides many other state and federal agencies are now involved and are planning to keep the area preserved due to it's record news breaking headlines world wide considering the signifance which I am the first to discover the mounds and publish the facts and images with copyrights etc. Please enjoy this. I guess this cut that legend all to shreads so to speak. .... NEXT!!! Ahhahahahah, anyway here's the link:

http://lovefishn.tripod.com/lostadamsdiggings.html

http://lovefishn.tripod.com/lostadamsdiggings.html

I've even been in contact with the writers and narrators of various shows like Ancient Aliens and my website explains why it's worthy of world wide news.

Anyway, it's been a great fifteen plus years researching and I found that communicating with everyone here absolutely great, you've all be wonderful and I appreciate the way everyone treats others with respect and dignaty as colleagues should. With much appreciation to the website forums host here too as well.

Thank You! : )

Sincerely, Phillip Anderson

 

[Oroblanco]

"They, and the Pimas, always considered the Apache as second rate fighters,"

I think you will find that virtually every tribe viewed themselves as superior to their enemies, so naturally Pimas, Yaquis and Navajos say the Apaches were second rate, Apaches view all of the above in the same light, Crows look down on Sioux, Sioux on Crows ad infinitum. No tribe would last long if they were to adopt the casualty-rich fighting methods of Europeans, so as a matter of tribal survival it has been necessary for them to avoid combat except with the odds in their own favor and the risk of heavy loss minimized.

Filemaker01 - not trying to tell you what to do or not do, but cross posting is considered a no-no. I have gotten into trouble for it so am not throwing stones. I remain (respectully) un-convinced of your claims, but wish you good luck in your endeavors.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

still no coffee for me? Just you two?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro de Tayopa, agreed, but in this case the results of many battles are to be considered.

Also the mere fact that a handful of Spanish soldiers was often enough to keep them out of many areas --?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

still no coffee for me? Just you two?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Gee Don Jose, I set two cups out, not going to hand you the one I am drinking!

<for you>

MINE

Oro de Tayopa, agreed, but in this case the results of many battles are to be considered.

Also the mere fact that a handful of Spanish soldiers was often enough to keep them out of many areas --?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Without going into a great deal of study about the combat effectiveness of our Apaches, there are instances of pitched battles with them as at Apache Pass or the late 1700s attack on Tucson itself. I am sure that among the Yaquis the fighting qualities of the Apaches will be viewed with some disdain, but this is true with almost any tribe in reference to its enemies. A better point to counter your handful of Spanish soldiers example would be the vast amount of depopulation in Arizona, Sonora and even New Mexico in the early part of the 1800s, due to a virtual handful of Apaches. Geronimo faced a US Army force several times larger than his own and managed to remain un-defeated for several years. Nana's last raid is even taught in West Point as an example of successful guerilla campaign. So let us not get too disdainful of the fighting abilities of the Apaches, after all they did manage to remain unconquered long after the more numerous Navajos and even the much more numerous plains tribes. So I have to respectfully disagree.

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

....No tribe would last long if they were to adopt the casualty-rich fighting methods of Europeans, so as a matter of tribal survival it has been necessary for them [Apaches] to avoid combat except with the odds in their own favor and the risk of heavy loss minimized....

Cannon fodder they were not. The Navy Seals of natives is more like it. Their ability, on their terms, to locate, eliminate and loot any/all others within their realms, terrify any survivors, and disappear from attempted retribution, made them not only hated, but feared by all who ventured into Apacheria for 200 years or more, including the military of two nations. They considered themselves freedom fighters, everyone else tagged them as terrorists. Such is human life on earth. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with them.

 

[filemaker01]

Sorry, didn't realize I was cross posting, the forum link just stated the Lost Adams Diggings, which is where the place is that I posted about. The bodies of the massacred Adams party and even those who went for supplies were all found as well there. The entire area is a rather sacred grounds with effigy star mounds all over the place you can only see from the air, so I thought that would interest anyone in the Lost Adams Diggings forums. The gold was also found right where Adams said and where Ron Jensen said it was. So much more has been discovered since I posted last before yesterday. It's been a while, been in and out of hospital, trying to sell my place etc. Good to see everyone still here. : )

http://lovefishn.tripod.com/lostadamsdiggings.html

At least those who are open to why the canyon was so sacred and protected by Chief Nana can see why. Thanks you all, I sure enjoyed your posts and all. Anyone seen or heard from Ron Jensen yet who wrote www.lostadams.com ?? Thanks, Phil

 

[Oroblanco]

The bodies of the massacred Adams party and even those who went for supplies were all found as well there.

Can you provide us with some kind of evidence to support/prove that these remains were found, and identified as being the original Adams party? Thank you in advance;

Filemaker01 also wrote

The entire area is a rather sacred grounds with effigy star mounds all over the place you can only see from the air, so I thought that would interest anyone in the Lost Adams Diggings forums. The gold was also found right where Adams said and where Ron Jensen said it was. So much more has been discovered since I posted last before yesterday. It's been a while, been in and out of hospital, trying to sell my place etc. Good to see everyone still here. : )

http://lovefishn.tripod.com/lostadamsdiggings.html

At least those who are open to why the canyon was so sacred and protected by Chief Nana can see why. Thanks you all, I sure enjoyed your posts and all. Anyone seen or heard from Ron Jensen yet who wrote www.lostadams.com ?? Thanks, Phil

It certainly does interest anyone in the Lost Adams forums, and effigy mounds could well be an important new discovery of ancient origins. You stated that the gold was found right where Adams said (and Ron Jensen) - can you add some info to support this contention? Thank you in advance, and whether we agree or disagree has no bearing on friendship; at least not from this end. I think you have a very interesting site or combination of sites, but would like to see more confirmation that it is what you believe it to be. Gold has been found in a great many places, none of which were or are the lost Adams diggings, so it would seem that to identify a particular site as the lost Adams we might expect to see a remarkable or very large amount of gold recovered in order to fit the stories.

I have some doubts about the Adams zigzag canyon being "sacred" to the Apaches or any other tribe; why should he have given permission for the whites to be living and mining there, if it were some kind of sacred site for example? Even in Nana's own words, the original owners appear not to have been Apaches, and the presence of some kind of farming activity points to a different people entirely. Let us not be too quick to start identifying a site as "sacred" without consulting the sources, and those sources do specify several locations which are held as sacred by each tribe. If the tribe has no memory of such a site as you have pointed out, there is good reason to believe that it is not a sacred site for them or there would be some traditions relating to it. Anyway it does not seem logical to me, that Nana would have given permission to Adams party in the first place if the site were in some way 'sacred' to his people.

Good luck and good hunting amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gpg]

Can you provide us with some kind of evidence to support/prove that these remains were found, and identified as being the original Adams party? Thank you in advance;

Filemaker01 also wrote


It certainly does interest anyone in the Lost Adams forums, and effigy mounds could well be an important new discovery of ancient origins. You stated that the gold was found right where Adams said (and Ron Jensen) - can you add some info to support this contention? Thank you in advance, and whether we agree or disagree has no bearing on friendship; at least not from this end. I think you have a very interesting site or combination of sites, but would like to see more confirmation that it is what you believe it to be. Gold has been found in a great many places, none of which were or are the lost Adams diggings, so it would seem that to identify a particular site as the lost Adams we might expect to see a remarkable or very large amount of gold recovered in order to fit the stories.

I have some doubts about the Adams zigzag canyon being "sacred" to the Apaches or any other tribe; why should he have given permission for the whites to be living and mining there, if it were some kind of sacred site for example? Even in Nana's own words, the original owners appear not to have been Apaches, and the presence of some kind of farming activity points to a different people entirely. Let us not be too quick to start identifying a site as "sacred" without consulting the sources, and those sources do specify several locations which are held as sacred by each tribe. If the tribe has no memory of such a site as you have pointed out, there is good reason to believe that it is not a sacred site for them or there would be some traditions relating to it. Anyway it does not seem logical to me, that Nana would have given permission to Adams party in the first place if the site were in some way 'sacred' to his people.

Good luck and good hunting amigo I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

I always kinda figured any delay from Nana was simply waiting for more of his guys to show up. My guess is he was planning to kill them from the get go. The were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong guy.
No reason to discount apaches as the farmers, they did a lot of farming before they were being chased constantly. And some even while they were.

 

[gpg]

Well just to keep it going, sort of. Have been doing a lot of reading about apaches since Jan. A couple things stood out. First was reading about the spanish from 1500-1700 and where they went and where they didn't. They were here after their gold rich conquests in Mexico and S. America. That gold being found in rock built towns made by "primitive" people. It was a lesson they clung to the entire time they were in NM. Riches were associated with primitives building rock "towns". That led them to concentrate on the Pueblo people and their towns, and the entire spanish time in NM is basically the subjugation and looting of the Pueblos, most fighting was indeed with the Pueblos. Navajos got involved as allies of the pueblos, they were the closest, most permanent neighbors. Apaches avoided the spanish mostly until the spanish started raiding them for slaves and then they too became allies of the pueblos.
The apache as semi nomadics at the time were not veiwed as "rich" and their areas, except up the Rio Grande were left mostly alone, and then once the apache started raiding the spanish they were left alone as too warlike.
Exploration leaving from the Santa Fe area almost always went east, chasing Coronado's reports of "kingdoms" far to the east. They did this over and over with no results. Very little travel was done to the west, and when it was done it stayed north, the Santa Fe to Flagstaff line, more or less until out beyond the hostile apache area.
Apaches in that time covered a huge area, reaching into the plains and known as the Kiowa-Apaches there, and far into mexico, and far to both the east and west sides of the AZ/NM border and even to TX. Smack dab in the middle of this area were the Bedonkohes, which included Nana and Geronimo and which was fading out as a distinct tribe when Geronimo was born. They were associated with the Warm Springs first and then after the death of Vicorio, with the Chiricahua.
Amazing how the names used for tribes changed over the years based on who was making contact with them, makes them difficult to follow. Plus all the place name changes. For a time, most all in what is now the US were grouped as the "Gila Apaches" by the spanish, which name went out of use as more contact was made. Later, many were called Chiricahua inaccurately.
Anyway the spanish stayed out of most of the area that the LAD is usually believed to be in and even later americans were kept mostly out until all the apaches were permanently on reservations or in Florida. Other than Santa Rita, all the big mining finds did not occur until long after Geronimo was out of the west, and Nana with him. Even the small bands at the end wrecked havoc on huge areas and instilled great fear.
So to me, history certainly sets the stage for a lost diggings story in the area the Lost Adams is supposed to be in. It remains very sparsely populated, very rugged and was isolated from the spanish miners, and the early american waves of prospectors.
Sant Rita couldn't even stay populated until after apaches were completely controlled.
Finally I have seen some statements accredited to Nana by other apaches alive at the time that surely would refer to the famous canyon. And a reference from Nana that Mangas could have shown them all the gold they wanted. Still, those references can also be doubted as romantic license by the authors.
The one that is the most interesting: "In the mountains to the west of Ojo Caliente, far west, I could show you a canyon where you could pick up chunks the size of grains of corn". This is Nana quoted by another apache.
That's a lot of territory, and a lot of it was kept empty of prospectors by apaches for a very long time.

 

[Docmeeks]

So far a lot of speculation and no gold which would be the touchstone of a successful venture. You just might want to read " Apache days and beyond" by Brig.Gen. USA-Ret Thomas Cruise.(no kidding) There is a neat vignette about a medical doctor captured by Victorio and allowed to leave some years later but before he left, Victorio detailed a warrior to escort the Doctor to a small canyon absolutely paved with gold and the doctor filled his pockets and everything he could with gold. I believe the Fort he walked to after being released was Ft. Defiance near the Ariz/Newmex border. The General as a young "shave-tail" saw the gold and wrote about it...well, Good luck and yellow pans..

 

[lastleg]

Welcome Docmeets

Since Highmtn dropped from view I can't find anyone who was/is on the ground. Last area he spoke of was east of Showlow in NM.
May have been where he was thinking of moving to after leaving the high country after a fall from a snowpacked roof. Then I heard
Rio Rancho/Alb. He is estranged from family of his own design. So I am unable to pick his fertile brain.

I am inclined to favor the Vulture/Waltz connection. The Rich Hill factor might be feasable if the dates don't collide. I've always been
amazed at the enticement of the Supers over the nearby Bradshaws where gold IS found in abundance. Not that the LAD is involved
unless someone was throwing a curve ball. The Bradshaw early miners were raided and terrorized by Apache according to accounts
I have read. It has been too many years to remember the title of a book on that subject, maybe Springfield knows. Haven't been to
the library in years.

Anyway if is good to have fresh insights on this intriguing legend.

 

[Direwolf]

Hello everyone I was just curious if anyone knows the locations of two supposed LAD finds, one made by H.E.A.T member Mic Mcpherson and the other one by Don Fangado? I dont think either of them found the LAD just curiousity on my part, these "definitive finds" always amuse me with their lack of gold.

 

[Springfield]

Fingado's site was Apache Box, not far from the AZ/NM border on the NM side. No gold there.