Lost Dutchman--Superstition Mtn Historical Society and Tom Kollenborn

[tvanwho]

Turns out to be a gold mine, .....how will I know if it is the LDM mine or not?
Maybe I don't even care as long as I can get enough gold to retire on and leave it at that. Was the gold all in a lode or a placer? What did the host ore look like? I hear it was a pinkish quartz? Would a Whites MXT metal detector beep over it?

-Tom

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[Oroblanco]

tvanwho wrote

Turns out to be a gold mine, .....how will I know if it is the LDM mine or not?
Maybe I don't even care as long as I can get enough gold to retire on and leave it at that. Was the gold all in a lode or a placer? What did the host ore look like? I hear it was a pinkish quartz? Would a Whites MXT metal detector beep over it?

This got to be a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence.

Well I am no expert on this, but IN MY OPINION only the ore itself will positively identify whether it is the same mine of Jacob Waltz or not, for gold ores are like fingerprints in that no two sources are identical, and the ore from Jacob Waltz's source is unlike any known source.

Based on what Waltz said to his friends, the host rock is not what a gold prospector would identify as a host rock, or it is in a place that would not be a logical place to find gold ore. Now many will disagree with me on this, as the two most popularly known versions of how Waltz discovered the mine have it first owned by Spanish or Mexican Peraltas or other Mexicans, but according to the third version which is not well known, he found it by following "float" that is by prospecting with a small portable dry washer, up to the source which proved to be the vein of gold. So by this version, there is at least SOME placer gold that came from the vein (which is logical for any lode gold deposit) not necessarily very much placer gold however, more likely only the tiniest specks and not many of them. Otherwise the mine would have been easily found many years ago and would not be a mystery at all today.

As for the color of the ore, it is possible that it COULD be pinkish quartz, the existing examples of Waltz's ore show a WHITE quartz ore, which is apparently of hypothermal type deposit based on the size of the grain of the rock and gold pieces in it. Hypothermal type gold deposits are the rarest type in Arizona (I know of only two in the whole state) but these are generally very rich and run to extreme depths in the earth. The Vulture mine is one of the two, and many have proposed that this is the source of Waltz's ore, which he denied and the ore does not match so cannot be. A sample of the ore, compared with the known existing examples of Waltz's ore, examined by a geologist or a good assayer, should settle the case absolutely. Here is a photo of a match box made from the gold ore found beneath Waltz's bed

<hope it works, if not go to the link>
Many have claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine (over 80 as I recall) but only ONE person actually had ore which matched the ore of Jacob Waltz, that being Walt Gassler. Even Joe Deering, John Chuning, Sims Ely, Apache Jack, Wagoner and all the others, all had ore which was quite different from Waltz's ore, indicating that there are SEVERAL gold deposits within the Superstition mountains, even though this is one of the very worst places in America to hunt for gold, geologically speaking.

I do not own a White's MXT, but based on how rich the ore is, almost ANY metal detector ought to find it easily, set to "all metals" mode. A major problem is going to be iron in the rock, not sure how good the MXT is at tuning this out but it ought to be capable of it.

This is all MY OPINION only, as I said there are plenty of folks who would disagree with me on this and point to various other points of evidence as proof, which perhaps is enough to satisfy them - but for me it is the ore which will seal the case once and for all, and nothing else.

Good luck and good hunting tvanwho, I hope you find the treasures that you seek!
your friend,
Oroblanco

[tvanwho]

Does lightning really tend to strike areas of high mineral content or is this an old prospectors dream story? What about the old adage that lightning never strikes twice in the same spot?
Also, how come the Forest Service does not allow helicopters to land in the Superstition Wilderness area ,heck I was told the minimum altitude was 2000 feet for flyovers. And at $350-800 an hour cost wise, who can afford a personal helicopter ride and aerial mapping/photography? Them was the rates I was quoted out of the big airport in Phoenix.

-Tom

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning TOM; Not too many years ago I had a small mercury mine up by Arichuvo. It was operated by a Mexican gambusino that I staked, Agustin Villa Fuerte. He gave me a frasco of Mercury and took a few back home to Chihuahua for his family for Christmas.

Long story there, but he had found an area where the the basic rock was of Walnut size with the mercury coating - Cinnabar - outside. All we had to do was to place it into one of the three large retorts that we constructed. It was very rich. Unfortunately he had a heart attack while at home and died. Business kept me from returning and I presume that all of the equipment that we had there just silently drifted away.

It has never been established exactly where he had found the ore, other than he once said that the local lightening always struck there , actually "BELOW" the surrounding ridges. In fact a herd of Goats had been killed by lightening strikes there.

This, to me, tends to back up your question, as yes under certain conditions..

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Cubfan64]

Does lightning really tend to strike areas of high mineral content or is this an old prospectors dream story? What about the old adage that lightning never strikes twice in the same spot?
Also, how come the Forest Service does not allow helicopters to land in the Superstition Wilderness area ,heck I was told the minimum altitude was 2000 feet for flyovers. And at $350-800 an hour cost wise, who can afford a personal helicopter ride and aerial mapping/photography? Them was the rates I was quoted out of the big airport in Phoenix.

-Tom

Lots of questions and not many answers from me I'm afraid

The old adage of "lightning never strikes twice" I belive was originally followed by the comment "because it doesn't have to."

Does lightning tend to strike area of high mineral (specifically iron) content? I've often wondered that myself, and have yet to find any real research to prove or disprove it. I've read electrical engineers comment that the two are totally unrelated, while also finding similar sources suggesting reasons for it being likely.

Here is a website I had linked with someone asking the same question and some of the responses are interesting. I know pretty much nothing about lightning or electricity, so we'll have to hope someone else chimes in, but at least some of the information in this discussion is interesting.

http://community.discovery.com/eve/f...1934879/inc/-1

Personally, I've heard FAR more accounts of old-timers identifying potentially good prospect sites based on what's growing and what's NOT growing in certain areas. That really makes alot of sense to me since some ores can be poisonous to certain plants while others could certainly provide some benefits. I don't know how much of that kind of lore is actually written down anywhere or if it's simply handed down knowledge based on experience from generation to generation - either way though, it seems quite reasonable that someone could pinpoint potentially good deposts in that manner.

As far as flying in the Superstitions goes, the only really sensible reason I've heard has to do with the safety of it. Wind current patterns can be problematic from all the peaks and gorges, etc...

[BenThereDoneThat]

Does lightning really tend to strike areas of high mineral content or is this an old prospectors dream story? What about the old adage that lightning never strikes twice in the same spot?
Also, how come the Forest Service does not allow helicopters to land in the Superstition Wilderness area ,heck I was told the minimum altitude was 2000 feet for flyovers. And at $350-800 an hour cost wise, who can afford a personal helicopter ride and aerial mapping/photography? Them was the rates I was quoted out of the big airport in Phoenix.

-Tom

I live at the base of the Superstitions and i can tell you for a fact that choppers are in quite often LOW,Buzzing the canyons, I watched one land, drop two guys off with head lamps about 10pm at night then came back about an hour later and picked them up!! Top of Hog Canyon. Could have just been a rescue..........strange the chopper was flying without running lights for most of that, Night Vision Rocks

[Oroblanco]

tvanwho wrote

Does lightning really tend to strike areas of high mineral content or is this an old prospectors dream story?

I believe it does = it seems logical after all since a metallic vein in rock would be an excellent conductor of electricity, and lightning does seem to strike good conductors more frequently than poor conductors. Otherwise lightning rods would not work.

I am reminded of one of the most far-fetched stories I ever heard, about a fellow who witnessed some mysterious "balls of light" in the Colorado Rockies during thunderstorms, and believed they were UFO's; later went up to check out the sites where these "UFO"s had appeared to "land". In each spot, he found a funnel-shaped disc of gold! He gathered up several of these "gifts from our space brothers" and sold them, making enough to buy a new house. To him, some kind of alien UFO's had come during thunderstorms and left him gold as presents, but I am convinced that what he saw was ball lightning - for one thing the "UFO"s only appeared during thunderstorms, the Colorado Rockies are heavily mineralized and the lightning simply struck places where the gold was close to the surface - resulting in melting it into "funnels" very like the sand-glass funnels also made by lightning strikes. It is worth checking out spots where lightning has been striking if you are in mineralized country in my opinion, whether they are gifts of our "space brothers" or just nature creating a wonder.
Oroblanco

[Springfield]

... Also, how come the Forest Service does not allow helicopters to land in the Superstition Wilderness area ,heck I was told the minimum altitude was 2000 feet for flyovers. ...

Wilderness Areas are off-limits for any and all motorized vehicles. You will find that even Search and Rescue missions are officially disallowed from landing choppers for the purpose of removing injured victims. The SAR personnel are required to transport the subjects by litter, horseback, etc. until outside the Wilderness border. Only in extreme circumstances (life and death) is this rule ignored.

[somehiker]

Most of the Superstitions Wilderness area lies within the OUTLAW MOA (military operations area),where military helicopter training flights are common,both day and night.This particular MOA forms a Trapezoid with the narrow western end just east of Weavers Needle and the wider eastern end abutting the JACKAL MOA at San Carlos.VFR flights within these restricted areas are prohibited without clearance from Albuquerque Center.
I have twice tried and failed to obtain clearance,and from what I have been told,with the wars in Iraq and Afganistan,the frequency of military flights is not likely to diminish anytime soon.
An additional area that is also restricted,according to my Phoenix Sectional,is the Salt River Corridor which is designated as a Bald Eagle nesting area.So,if you dream of shooting the canyon in your cessna....forget it.
IFR flights have their own proceedural restrictions,and most of the civilian traffic that you see over the area is IFR under the control of either Albuquerque or Phoenix.
You can get some nice shots of the interior from the northern edge of the boundary,though,but they will be distance shots that won't allow much of a look down into the canyons.
There are a few photos posted here that illustrate what I am talking about.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8811617
--hit the back button for more.

Regards:SH

[Cynangyl]

shameless Oro bump

[somehiker]

ORO:
Them "space brothers" wouldn't happen to be the "coneheads" referred to in ancient treasure hunter mythology,would they?
....SH.

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Them "space brothers" wouldn't happen to be the "coneheads" referred to in ancient treasure hunter mythology,would they?

Well to be frank, YES they could be.....! Hey if any of those "space brothers" want to leave me some gold deposits, I will be happy to call them "space brothers" instead of ball lightning!
Oroblanco

[Twisted Fork]

Some of the Native American Tribes will tell you that the ancestors believed that gold is God's excrement and that such an experience would be simply the Great Father stopping off to take a dump. If you are close enough to see lightning strike somewhere in the mountains, run or find safe shelter quick.

[BenThereDoneThat]

Some of the Native American Tribes will tell you that the ancestors believed that gold is God's excrement and that such an experience would be simply the Great Father stopping off to take a dump. If you are close enough to see lightning strike somewhere in the mountains, run or find safe shelter quick.

I always wondered who came up with the word "DUMP" when referring to the business of The Brown's Going to the Super Bowl !!!!
Now i know.....It was the Native American's .

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

"Some of the Native American Tribes will tell you that the ancestors believed that gold is God's excrement and that such an experience would be simply the Great Father stopping off to take a dump."

And thus we get the expression......Holy S#!t!

Joe Ribaudo

[Oroblanco]

ROFL

[BenThereDoneThat]

And thus we get the expression......Holy S#!t!

Joe Ribaudo

Then the spanish moved in and made off with all the gold coining the expression T urd Burglar
I will stop now as this could get out of hand

[Oroblanco]

Wait - then where did the expression "fudge packer" come from?

[BenThereDoneThat]

SAN FRANCISCO i believe

[Twisted Fork]

Like turds, the gold is right in front of you or was that just behind you, either way it is right under your nose.

Oh ya, the lost Dutchman.........