Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Javaone wrote

The question is; if the stone maps are real – What was their intended purpose? - To lead to a mine, or to lead to a cache? dontknow

It is fairly safe to say; the stones were never in the picture during the Waltz/LDM era. According to some it was a Peralta that divulged the location of the mine to waltz (or his partner). Chances are good that the Peralta who gave Waltz the location had no knowledge of the stones either.

IF the stones are real, and the end of the trail can be pin pointed – it would be likely that a mine(s) would be in the general vicinity.

I sure don't know the answers but think the creator of the stone maps would logically have indicated a mine or mines with the word 'mina'; if this assumption is correct (no guarantee it is, just my speculation) then the maps may lead to a vault or cache of treasure rather than a mine. Really though who can say? Maybe they lead to tombs of dead Jesuit martyrs?
Roy

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Javaone wrote

The question is; if the stone maps are real – What was their intended purpose? - To lead to a mine, or to lead to a cache? dontknow

It is fairly safe to say; the stones were never in the picture during the Waltz/LDM era. According to some it was a Peralta that divulged the location of the mine to waltz (or his partner). Chances are good that the Peralta who gave Waltz the location had no knowledge of the stones either.

IF the stones are real, and the end of the trail can be pin pointed – it would be likely that a mine(s) would be in the general vicinity.

I sure don't know the answers but think the creator of the stone maps would logically have indicated a mine or mines with the word 'mina'; if this assumption is correct (no guarantee it is, just my speculation) then the maps may lead to a vault or cache of treasure rather than a mine. Really though who can say? Maybe they lead to tombs of dead Jesuit martyrs?
Roy

who can say .. i can !

the stones per date waltz by 100's of years ...lol

stones were made to pinpoint tayopa mines 1 threw 9 ...

why not because the mines were important .. its because what they were before they were 1/2 of tayopa

before any of go beyond this point you should know

the horse on the horse stone is the pal horse of Revelations ! if you under stand what this means .. your standing in the door way of the end of days !....

i can only tell you beyond this point the death of your whole race awaits you ... sh-a-amen

i am the only one that can brake the 7th seal

... if you wish it ,so shell it be done ...if i brake the 7th seal the black death will be free on earth ....do you under stand ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

who can say .. i can !

the stones per date waltz by 100's of years ...lol

stones were made to pinpoint tayopa mines 1 threw 9 ...

why not because the mines were important .. its because what they were before they were 1/2 of tayopa

before any of go beyond this point you should know

the horse on the horse stone is the pal horse of Revelations ! if you under stand what this means .. your standing in the door way of the end of days !....

i can only tell you beyond this point the death of your whole race awaits you ... sh-a-amen

i am the only one that can brake the 7th seal

... if you wish it ,so shell it be done ...if i brake the 7th seal the black death will be free on earth ....do you under stand ?

Why is it that whenever we try to have a discussion of the Lost Dutchman gold mine, it ends up being a debate over the Peralta stones?

Waltz had no stone maps, and yet he went to his mine and back several times. The Peralta Stones are simply not necessary for the Lost Dutchman which is our topic here.

What is with all this high drama anyway amigo? You are the only one who can break the 7th seal? I think you are attributing way too much to a set of carved stones. Another question is that if the stone maps must apply to Tayopa, then logically they must refer to a place in what is today Sonora rather than Arizona. I would suggest Dobie's book Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver which has much of the legend of Tayopa, but doubt that it would change your mind; for once you have made up your mind I sure can't seem to sway you with words.

One last point my friend BB who worries too much, Revelations was a coded message for a group of early churches in Asia Minor during a period of persecution of the Christians. It is questionable whether that book even belongs in the holy canon and several early church fathers argued against it being included. 666 is Emperor Nero and the 'end of the world' predicted in Revelations already happened l-o-n-g ago. We no longer have the false gods who demanded sacrifices nor the widespread slavery, wars of conquest etc that was the Roman empire. So in very real terms, all of those predictions came true centuries ago - long before those stone maps were ever touched by iron.

I sure don't know where you are going with this; hopefully you can enlighten me? Thank you in advance;
your baffled friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

who can say .. i can !

the stones per date waltz by 100's of years ...lol

stones were made to pinpoint tayopa mines 1 threw 9 ...

why not because the mines were important .. its because what they were before they were 1/2 of tayopa

before any of go beyond this point you should know

the horse on the horse stone is the pal horse of Revelations ! if you under stand what this means .. your standing in the door way of the end of days !....

i can only tell you beyond this point the death of your whole race awaits you ... sh-a-amen

i am the only one that can brake the 7th seal

... if you wish it ,so shell it be done ...if i brake the 7th seal the black death will be free on earth ....do you under stand ?

Why is it that whenever we try to have a discussion of the Lost Dutchman gold mine, it ends up being a debate over the Peralta stones?

Waltz had no stone maps, and yet he went to his mine and back several times. The Peralta Stones are simply not necessary for the Lost Dutchman which is our topic here.

What is with all this high drama anyway amigo? You are the only one who can break the 7th seal? I think you are attributing way too much to a set of carved stones. Another question is that if the stone maps must apply to Tayopa, then logically they must refer to a place in what is today Sonora rather than Arizona. I would suggest Dobie's book Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver which has much of the legend of Tayopa, but doubt that it would change your mind; for once you have made up your mind I sure can't seem to sway you with words.

One last point my friend BB who worries too much, Revelations was a coded message for a group of early churches in Asia Minor during a period of persecution of the Christians. It is questionable whether that book even belongs in the holy canon and several early church fathers argued against it being included. 666 is Emperor Nero and the 'end of the world' predicted in Revelations already happened l-o-n-g ago. We no longer have the false gods who demanded sacrifices nor the widespread slavery, wars of conquest etc that was the Roman empire. So in very real terms, all of those predictions came true centuries ago - long before those stone maps were ever touched by iron.

I sure don't know where you are going with this; hopefully you can enlighten me? Thank you in advance;
your baffled friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

why do i waste my time .. ..?

logic is based on related factors .. the Lost dutchman mine was not waltz's to start with or the peralta's ..or Tayopa's

the mine is worthless IMHO ..

and i believe you are wrong the topic is the mine not what it was called by waltz or the peralta or tayopa ..

the true focus is the mine it self .. not the name, waltz was so full of Sh ** i can not even type it on this web site

waltz was afraid to go back to the mine .. he was scared of his own shadow ...most of what you have been told is made up BS ..

waltz was a no buddy .. don't you under stand that ..?

the lost Dutchman mine is total BS

you want the truth ... you really want the real truth .. the white man came and seen gold and silver ,and killed the greatest hope mankind ever had .. they destroyed chicomoztoc .. killed the old and young and made the rest of them slaves in the mines ... the Jesuit and the Spanish got what they gave ...



if your smart you wont make the same mistake

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

why do i waste my time .. ..?

logic is based on related factors .. the Lost dutchman mine was not waltz's to start with or the peralta's ..or Tayopa's

the mine is worthless IMHO ..

and i believe you are wrong the topic is the mine not what it was called by waltz or the peralta or tayopa ..

the true focus is the mine it self .. not the name, waltz was so full of Sh ** i can not even type it on this web site

waltz was afraid to go back to the mine .. he was scared of his own shadow ...most of what you have been told is made up BS ..

waltz was a no buddy .. don't you under stand that ..?

the lost Dutchman mine is total BS

you want the truth ... you really want the real truth .. the white man came and seen gold and silver ,and killed the greatest hope mankind ever had .. they destroyed chicomoztoc .. killed the old and young and made the rest of them slaves in the mines ... the Jesuit and the Spanish got what they gave ...



if your smart you wont make the same mistake

Well, no one ever accused me of being smart! I have to respectfully disagree on several points here. First the topic is whether the Lost Dutchman mine truly is located in the Superstitions, at least that is what I started this thread on. Next, I don't ever consider it a waste of my time to talk with friends, even when we disagree. Next, you say Jacob Waltz is a nobody, scared of his own shadow etc well I see that completely differently; first of all Waltz was a real pioneer and was out prospecting in the Arizona deserts while the Apaches, Yavapais and Navajos were still on the warpath. He went prospecting in what is (debatable) the most dangerous area he could go - the Superstitions which were then known as a hideout of Apaches on the warpath. You seem to be taking Holmes version over all the other evidence as far as Waltz is concerned, and note that even Holmes himself was frightened pissless when he tried tracking old Jacob and found himself looking at the business end of his rifle.

A nobody - the man who started the most famous or infamous lost mine legend in the whole USA; can you name any other lost mine legend that surpasses that of Jacob Waltz for fame? How many books, articles and even movies have been made? I have to disagree on this point completely.

You say the mine pre-dates Waltz by hundreds of years; well then those earlier miners sure must have been slow or lazy about mining, for when Waltz had it the opening was only four feet wide and the shaft only twelve feet deep. I have dug a hole half that size in one day, of course mining rock is a much different deal but think amigo, does that sound like something so vast, so ancient and connected to tremendous Aztec origin stories etc? It sure doesn't to me.

I have seen zero evidence that ties in Chicomoztoc with the LDM; nearly zero to tie in the Peraltas, and zero to tie in the Peralta stones with the Dutchman's lost mine. The last hope of mankind destroyed by the Spaniards and Jesuits? Are you referring to the same civilization that was butchering 20,000 of their neighbors over three days to satisfy the appetite of their false "god"? I don't know where or why you have arrived at your conclusions but believe me, there are other ways to see this whole history and there is nothing notably attractive or positive about those Amerindian cultures "destroyed" by Spaniard and missionary. There was a good reason why the Spaniards found other tribes so ready and willing to JOIN them against those same Aztecs, Mayans, Incas etc it was because those Amerindian cultures were savage cannibalistic butchers, not something admirable. So the Spaniards & Jesuits brought slavery and dug for gold & silver, it was far better than what the situation was before 1492!

We disagree so you automatically presume that somehow, I don't "get it" well amigo that is not the case just that I see things very differently from the way you seem to. See there is a real historical person named Jacob Waltz, and it is documented that he had some very rich gold ore, ore that came from an unknown source; he tried to tell his friends how to find his mine and died without leaving us a map to find it. His friends were not able to find his mine, and the legend was born. Why do we need to add in all this other stuff on Peraltas, Chicomoztoc, stone maps or Apaches at all? If you remove Jacob Waltz from the Lost Dutchman legend, all you have is legend.

Sorry to have caused you to waste your time, especially since we disagree so much.
Roy

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy,

You are correct. My information says that a couple of men can punch a shaft about eight feet a month through hardrock (adit).

Something like Waltz described could only have been worked on a very small scale or for a very short time.

Best-Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

why do i waste my time .. ..?

logic is based on related factors .. the Lost dutchman mine was not waltz's to start with or the peralta's ..or Tayopa's

the mine is worthless IMHO ..

and i believe you are wrong the topic is the mine not what it was called by waltz or the peralta or tayopa ..

the true focus is the mine it self .. not the name, waltz was so full of Sh ** i can not even type it on this web site

waltz was afraid to go back to the mine .. he was scared of his own shadow ...most of what you have been told is made up BS ..

waltz was a no buddy .. don't you under stand that ..?

the lost Dutchman mine is total BS

you want the truth ... you really want the real truth .. the white man came and seen gold and silver ,and killed the greatest hope mankind ever had .. they destroyed chicomoztoc .. killed the old and young and made the rest of them slaves in the mines ... the Jesuit and the Spanish got what they gave ...



if your smart you wont make the same mistake

Well, no one ever accused me of being smart! I have to respectfully disagree on several points here. First the topic is whether the Lost Dutchman mine truly is located in the Superstitions, at least that is what I started this thread on. Next, I don't ever consider it a waste of my time to talk with friends, even when we disagree. Next, you say Jacob Waltz is a nobody, scared of his own shadow etc well I see that completely differently; first of all Waltz was a real pioneer and was out prospecting in the Arizona deserts while the Apaches, Yavapais and Navajos were still on the warpath. He went prospecting in what is (debatable) the most dangerous area he could go - the Superstitions which were then known as a hideout of Apaches on the warpath. You seem to be taking Holmes version over all the other evidence as far as Waltz is concerned, and note that even Holmes himself was frightened pissless when he tried tracking old Jacob and found himself looking at the business end of his rifle.

A nobody - the man who started the most famous or infamous lost mine legend in the whole USA; can you name any other lost mine legend that surpasses that of Jacob Waltz for fame? How many books, articles and even movies have been made? I have to disagree on this point completely.

You say the mine pre-dates Waltz by hundreds of years; well then those earlier miners sure must have been slow or lazy about mining, for when Waltz had it the opening was only four feet wide and the shaft only twelve feet deep. I have dug a hole half that size in one day, of course mining rock is a much different deal but think amigo, does that sound like something so vast, so ancient and connected to tremendous Aztec origin stories etc? It sure doesn't to me.

I have seen zero evidence that ties in Chicomoztoc with the LDM; nearly zero to tie in the Peraltas, and zero to tie in the Peralta stones with the Dutchman's lost mine. The last hope of mankind destroyed by the Spaniards and Jesuits? Are you referring to the same civilization that was butchering 20,000 of their neighbors over three days to satisfy the appetite of their false "god"? I don't know where or why you have arrived at your conclusions but believe me, there are other ways to see this whole history and there is nothing notably attractive or positive about those Amerindian cultures "destroyed" by Spaniard and missionary. There was a good reason why the Spaniards found other tribes so ready and willing to JOIN them against those same Aztecs, Mayans, Incas etc it was because those Amerindian cultures were savage cannibalistic butchers, not something admirable. So the Spaniards & Jesuits brought slavery and dug for gold & silver, it was far better than what the situation was before 1492!

We disagree so you automatically presume that somehow, I don't "get it" well amigo that is not the case just that I see things very differently from the way you seem to. See there is a real historical person named Jacob Waltz, and it is documented that he had some very rich gold ore, ore that came from an unknown source; he tried to tell his friends how to find his mine and died without leaving us a map to find it. His friends were not able to find his mine, and the legend was born. Why do we need to add in all this other stuff on Peraltas, Chicomoztoc, stone maps or Apaches at all? If you remove Jacob Waltz from the Lost Dutchman legend, all you have is legend.

Sorry to have caused you to waste your time, especially since we disagree so much.
Roy

LOL

sha na caw na a ha coo aw sho sho nean ah

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

i am sorry i posted off topic if this is your post then i wish you well with it...

 

[action14]

LOL

sha na caw na a ha coo aw sho sho nean ah

The Lost Dutchman's mine is an ancient mine. It provided the gold for the walls of the sacred cave.

Question; If the massacre grounds consist of bones of 400 fallen Spanish or Mexican miners then where is the memorial?

Thx Jon

 

[ldma.miner]

I think the Lost Dutchman had many things to give you in clues as to the treasure. But, I for one would like to be in on a Massive Discovery Crew with all of the LDMA / GPAA who ought to get together put what we have as clues and finally put an end to its discovery. Dare I say "Massive" outing til it's found"? I'm Game to splitting the finds with all who part take in the Largest Treasure find on earth, just having my name on the list would be a treasure.

 

[ldma.miner]

I think the Lost Dutchman had many things to give you in clues as to the treasure. But, I for one would like to be in on a Massive Discovery Crew with all of the LDMA / GPAA who ought to get together put what we have as clues and finally put an end to its discovery. Dare I say "Massive" outing til it's found"? I'm Game to splitting the finds with all who part take in the Largest Treasure find on earth, just having my name on the list would be a treasure.

"May there always be GOLD and TREASURE in Your Life"

 

[Not Peralta]

the gold that the person named Jacob waltz had was taken out of a mine in spirit mountain nv.np

 

[Somero]

The Lost Dutchman's mine is an ancient mine. It provided the gold for the walls of the sacred cave.

Question; If the massacre grounds consist of bones of 400 fallen Spanish or Mexican miners then where is the memorial?

Thx Jon

Right, the native people had plenty of spare time to dig gold and process it so they could put it in a "sacred cave"

I really don't think the Apache would attack a group that large, 20 or 30 maybe even 50 but not 400, think of the logistics for a group that large, especially in a desert environment.

Why would they put up a memorial back then?

 

[Somero]

the gold that the person named Jacob waltz had was taken out of a mine in spirit mountain nv.np

who exactly was Jacob waltz, the man they called the Dutchman, he didn't live in the superstition mountains, no one ever saw him do any mining, let alone go into the mountains, again , my question is, if you research all the documents supposedly signed by Jacob waltz over all these years, why don't the signatures match? from starting in cal to az,everything about him is just heresay, if it wasn't for a story that Julia Thomas sold to a reporter,no one would have ever heard of Jacob waltz aka the Dutchman,even the gold supposedly found under his bed, which at that time was not of great value,cannot be proven, thanks to a story being sold, a legend was born, which makes no sense at all.np

Little contradicting going on here.

 

[ldma.miner]

Little contradicting going on here.

Hey I didn't join this net to be ridiculed I believe in assisting anyway I can to finish a find. But if you are only interested in inadvertently trying to force your beliefs on people who are only interested in the find, then this Disabled American Veteran will just do what he has been for the past 20+ years. Getting Gold Rich and helping other s with their dreams. Bye!

"May there always be GOLD and TREASURE in Your Life"

 

[Somero]

Hey I didn't join this net to be ridiculed I believe in assisting anyway I can to finish a find. But if you are only interested in inadvertently trying to force your beliefs on people who are only interested in the find, then this Disabled American Veteran will just do what he has been for the past 20+ years. Getting Gold Rich and helping other s with their dreams. Bye!

"May there always be GOLD and TREASURE in Your Life"

I really don't see where I am ridiculing you, the quotes are from NP.

 

[Springfield]

... think of the logistics for a group that large, especially in a desert environment...

Well, Somero, doses of reality such as that have always confounded the 'legend', and of course have been ignored. The 'researchers' might do some research into the documented realities of what it took to finance, equip, and sustain a significant mining venture in a remote and hostile environment during the Spanish/Mexican period. But, like they say, "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story."

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ldma Miner: Relax and join us for some nice hot coffee. Anyone that posts is fair game, believe me, I have had my share, but it is the same as when we discuss things here around the campfire drinking Oro's sock coffee.

As a matter of fact, I kinda enjoy having my theories picked at. if I can't answer correctly then I still have some theorizing or research to do.

Side thingie, where did you get scragged? Was it with intention or just a "to whom it may concern?"

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Somero]

Springfield, Don Jose, I hate it when facts ruin a good story. I remember my ideas got put through the ringer, got me pretty riled up. Then I realized there were quite a few holes in my story, so all the tough questions forced a good rethink in common sense. Funny how the simple questions of why when where and how can keep a theory changing with the more information we acquire.

 

[ldma.miner]

Right, the native people had plenty of spare time to dig gold and process it so they could put it in a "sacred cave"

I really don't think the Apache would attack a group that large, 20 or 30 maybe even 50 but not 400, think of the logistics for a group that large, especially in a desert environment.

Why would they put up a memorial back then?

FYI Apache Tribes in that ERA numbered *56,060 in the Mexico, Arizona and New Mexico Region.
*=information from Wikipedia on Apache tribes in that century.

"May there always be GOLD and TREASURE in Your Life"