Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

AlaskaBill wrote

Have most recent researchers and managers of this Forum consider LDM and LAD one in the same?

Just wondering why is there not a LAD thread at the same level as LDM in the "Treasure Legends" topic?

As far as I know, most treasure hunters and researchers do NOT consider the Lost Dutchman and Lost Adams to be one and the same. If traced to their origins, the two cannot be the same.

A separate forum board would be justified for the Lost Adams Diggings in my opinion, if someone would make a request for it to the moderators they would probably make one. Of course then someone would need to create a thread for "starters". As there are a fair number of treasure hunters seeking the Lost Adams, it might well become very popular and active.
Oroblanco

 

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[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

... A separate forum board would be justified for the Lost Adams Diggings in my opinion, if someone would make a request for it to the moderators they would probably make one. Of course then someone would need to create a thread for "starters". As there are a fair number of treasure hunters seeking the Lost Adams, it might well become very popular and active.
Oroblanco

The LAD was very active on TNet a number of years ago. Check the TNet archives for some good info from some knowledgable people. These things act on cycles - maybe the LAD will get active again.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

What is wrong with this picture? Thank you in advance for your replies.

Oroblanco

My guess here is that Waltz ( like most miners of the day ), probably had a favorite whore in Florence and had the wash board made while he was in town. He mentioned the December sunset shining into the mouth of his mine, still there was and probably still is plenty of placer to work somewhere on the surface. Anyone that worked it back then was in for a short lived adventure so I would tend to think that one would stay out of sight in a tunnel of some sort if the opportunity was present. Personally, I believe that Waltz buried Wiser at the edge of the Salt River so as the winter runoff would free him of any trumped up murder charges. It is clear in most of the angles existing in legend that Waltz had become a mental case due to the loss of his best friend. In fact he avoided the area for 10 years? 1883 appears to be the most active year wherein Adams comes onto the scene and Waltz returns to the site for a cache that was left behind years before?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

What is wrong with this picture? Thank you in advance for your replies.

Oroblanco

My guess here is that Waltz ( like most miners of the day ), probably had a favorite whore in Florence and had the wash board made while he was in town. He mentioned the December sunset shining into the mouth of his mine, still there was and probably still is plenty of placer to work somewhere on the surface. Anyone that worked it back then was in for a short lived adventure so I would tend to think that one would stay out of sight in a tunnel of some sort if the opportunity was present. Personally, I believe that Waltz buried Wiser at the edge of the Salt River so as the winter runoff would free him of any trumped up murder charges. It is clear in most of the angles existing in legend that Waltz had become a mental case due to the loss of his best friend. In fact he avoided the area for 10 years? 1883 appears to be the most active year wherein Adams comes onto the scene and Waltz returns to the site for a cache that was left behind years before?

Hmm - well the amount of placer near the LDM - who knows; an old-school prospector, as experienced as Waltz, knew how to trace back the 'float' gold to the source, in this way he located and claimed several mines up in the Bradshaws, so it would be a logical way to locate the one in the Superstitions; hunting for a ledge is not quite like placer mining, as you know - when placer mining you are trying to get the most gold you can recover, in tracing back a ledge you are looking for ANY gold at all, even the tiniest speck; by sampling in a methodical way, hunting for those tiny specks which would never pay a placer miner to try to mine, until you quit finding them and that tells you have just passed the source of the gold.

I take it that you do not believe the story we get from Doctor Walker, about Jacob Weiser? Are you familiar with that version, and Dr Walker's reliability? According to him, Weiser came to the Pima villages, badly wounded, and they brought him to Dr Walker for help; Dr Walker was unable to save him however and he passed away at Walker's home. Not before giving a map to Walker however, and by this version, Weiser was likewise convinced that his partner (Waltz) had been killed by Apaches. We don't even know for sure that it WAS Apaches either, for it would not be Apache-like to allow a seriously wounded enemy to escape, not without making some effort to catch and kill him if for no other reason than his scalp and his rifle. Other Indians were also hostile in those 'pioneer' days, but this particular angle is not even noticed by most.

I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence, but there were closer places to find such entertainment, if the mine really is in the Superstitions as we define that name today.
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Right you are Oroblanco; The Weiser scenario is still a mystery and one would tend to lean towards the Doc's story with so much sensible detail handed down; still a legend to be put to the test here. If I were to pursue the history available, I would start with the time spans of travel and the mode of transport over suspected terrains, point to point through the story. He must have been a tough old bird from the sound of it. Still the missing link; where is the mine and how far is it away from the Doc's place. It is in the Tontos by the way.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Right you are Oroblanco; The Weiser scenario is still a mystery and one would tend to lean towards the Doc's story with so much sensible detail handed down; still a legend to be put to the test here. If I were to pursue the history available, I would start with the time spans of travel and the mode of transport over suspected terrains, point to point through the story. He must have been a tough old bird from the sound of it. Still the missing link; where is the mine and how far is it away from the Doc's place. It is in the Tontos by the way.

good point if i do know where the real LDM is then where is doc's and i will tell you from a insight only i would have at this point if doc's story is true or not .. give me doc's location and i will map a corse and see if he could have made this trip in the time he said he did ...

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

The last time I heard of the angle here with the Doc, was again back in the eighties. There was a paperback in circulation at the time with all of the details you have mentioned. This version had slipped my mind to be honest. The version handed down to me through the family from 1883 has held pretty firm. Once you find the three red hills according to the Native instructions, your pretty much in the ball park of the entire site. The apex of the infield triangle is within a loud shout.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

ORO you posted -->I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence
*************

Would you please clarify that ? Is that like a hot bath & shave? Hotel? Resturante ? Cantina?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

good point if i do know where the real LDM is then where is doc's and i will tell you from a insight only i would have at this point if doc's story is true or not .. give me doc's location and i will map a corse and see if he could have made this trip in the time he said he did ...

I think you want the site of the Pima Indian villages on the Gila river rather than Dr Walker's home site, which is where Weiser actually made it to in that run for his life. Here is a link to a map done in 1870, which is very close to the date in which Weiser is believed to have made his last run; the site he made it to is shown on this map as "Pima Village"; Dr Walker's home was not far distant, nor for that matter was Adams Mill far distant, where Waltz was getting a new load of provisions at that very moment. Weiser was fleeing in the correct general direction to find his partner, was not off by many miles if you think about it.

http://cartweb.geography.ua.edu:900...Name,Description)&style=simple/view-dhtml.xsl

ORO you posted -->I don't know about Waltz having a favorite prostitute in Florence
*************

Would you please clarify that ? Is that like a hot bath & shave? Hotel? Resturante ? Cantina?

Don Jose de La Mancha

It is a type of physical and mental therapist, similar in cost to doctors and lawyers. The other points you have mentioned are, as far as I know, "optional".


Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Wiser seems to have only visited the mine that one first time if I remember. What doesn't figure in the Doc's story, would have one wondering why didn't Wiser and Waltz ever hook up again if the guy was supposed to have survived or did he? 3 days on horseback. Wounded, weak and on foot? No water? Still the story is favorable with all of the writing done and with so many characters; kind grows on ya..........

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there. I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person. Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there? If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine. I guess that I could not blame him either.

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it. If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill. I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine. As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute. I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day". The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about? It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right? If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt. <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply.
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Based on the area I feel to be the site, first water would have been N. of the Salt, near Four Peaks. There was an old well out that way know as last water as I was told. A cowboy spring?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Based on the area I feel to be the site, first water would have been N. of the Salt, near Four Peaks. There was an old well out that way know as last water as I was told. A cowboy spring?

I don't think that one will work; remember Dr Walker's home and the Pima Indian villages which are where Weiser fled to, are well south of the Superstition mountains, along the Gila river. Likewise, Florence is on the same river a bit west, and is where Waltz is said to have done considerable business in the early days< *1870s*> so a spring on the north side of the Salt river would be the opposite direction from where Weiser arrived on the Gila river not to mention having to cross the Salt river along the way. Adams Mill, where Waltz went to buy more flour is also located on the Gila river, not that far from the Pima village where Weiser made it. Interesting theory however, if the LDM were up in the Tontos, but I don't think the rest of the evidence will fit. Just my opinion, as Joe would say "I could be wrong".
Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Tag
Please ignore.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there. I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person. Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there? If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine. I guess that I could not blame him either.

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it. If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill. I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine. As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute. I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day". The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about? It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right? If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt. <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply.
Oroblanco

thats not really true . i am reading the sims ely 1964 book and he dose not say that Weiser is barried at his home ,he only says he died there after 4 days .. in fact he says

" the burial ground down the river,which held the remains of other soldiers and overland travelers who had died among the friendly Pimas" my first impression of this book a good read some flash but for the most part a sims acount with some back ground data ...

some parts are very interesting why other parts have little to do with anything about the legend .. some of the people in the back ground . have little to do with the mine its self ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hola amigo,

According to the story from Doc Walker, Weiser died at his home and was buried there. I have some doubt that this happened, as there doesn't seem to be a grave, and there is at least one Weiser still living elsewhere in Arizona years later that could be the same person. Did Weiser recover enough to leave Walker's home, and people just assumed that he died there? If Weiser did survive that attack, he must have decided never to return to the mine. I guess that I could not blame him either.

I don't have the sources handy, but Weiser fled on horseback a few miles until the horse was hit by arrows, then afoot until he found water, there he left his gun as he was too weak to carry it. If you look on a map and see where the Pima villages were (I have a heck of a time pin-pointing it on the modern map of AZ) and then Adams Mill (which was close to, but not IN Adamsville, W of Florence) you can see that Weiser must have been running in the direction he believed Waltz had gone because he ended up just a few miles away from Adams Mill. I am not sure that it was three days either, in fact I think that Weiser said he expected Waltz to be back at the mine on the fourth day after he left, so that would be two days going and two in returning, so it was two days ride leading pack mules from Adams Mill to the mine. As to what that distance amounts to is a matter of some dispute. I think Weiser's last run was also two days, and included his sitting at the water hole for "most of the day". The water hole might be helpful too, for Weiser did say it was the "first water hole he knew of" (I may not have that exactly right but think it is) so exactly what water hole was he talking about? It must be on the route between the Pima villages and the mine, right? If you think about it, while Weiser was dying at Doc Walker's, Waltz must have been just about arriving at the mine and discovering his bloody shirt. <Another key clue that the attackers may not have been Apache, for no Apache would leave a good shirt behind>

Sheesh sorry for getting carried away there, and I look forward to your reply.
Oroblanco

thats not really true . i am reading the sims ely 1964 book and he dose not say that Weiser is barried at his home ,he only says he died there after 4 days .. in fact he says

" the burial ground down the river,which held the remains of other soldiers and overland travelers who had died among the friendly Pimas" my first impression of this book a good read some flash but for the most part a sims acount with some back ground data ...

some parts are very interesting why other parts have little to do with anything about the legend .. some of the people in the back ground . have little to do with the mine its self ..

I was working from memory not with book in hand amigo, and memory can fail you. Also Ely's account of Weiser is not the only source, there are some minor differences in other versions. I am glad you have Ely's book, as Sims Ely is the only published source that is known to have actually interviewed people whom were close to Waltz, so is about as close as we can get to Waltz's own words. If you have Barks notes as well, and Bicknell's two articles, these are the closest sources available. Unfortunately Bicknell is one of the worst, he added in a large portion of fiction before publishing, it is difficult to find any detail in his version that can be definitely identified and corroborated in other sources as originating with Jacob Waltz.

If the whole story of Jacob Weiser is true (I believe it is) we have some important clues to the location of the mine, and coincidentally, a bit of support to the 'old timers' of Florence who claim that Waltz did business there. One look at the map and you wonder why Waltz was traveling to Adams Mill for flour, or to Florence for business, if he could so easily and more quickly go elsewhere. There must be reason why he chose to go there, rather than simply doing business in Phoenix where his homestead was located.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

i think the ringing of my hammer disgrees .....

A ringing hammer can never solve this mystery, nor prove the LDM found. Gold can.

 

[somehiker]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Blindbowman wrote

i think the ringing of my hammer disgrees .....

A ringing hammer can never solve this mystery, nor prove the LDM found. Gold can.

Used to hear a lot of ringing on the Gong Show back when.
Brings back memories.
Just sayin,ya know....SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

So how far do you estimate Waltz would travel in two days time, leading mules? This question is for anyone who cares to give a guess, educated or not, or carefully calculated estimate, and thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy:
A frugal man such as Waltz may have gone to Adams Mill or Florence for the best price or other reasons of a similar nature.Credit vs cash,or quality etc.Nowadays,folks drive miles to save 3 cents per gallon of gas so I wouldn't make his source of supply a principal clue as to the location of the LDM,IMHO.

Regards:SH.