Truth about LDM?

[Cubfan64]

I'm definitely not the owner of any of the items mentioned, but comparing them to the Peralta Stones is absurd.

The matchbox is of a gold ore that matches NOTHING else found, except for what Walt Gassler had, and a few pieces of jewelry (I think cufflinks), and one or two other pieces.

The ring (the picture shown on this forum) is of an unknown mystery source, known to a few members.

I would think the differences between LDM gold and the Peralta Stones would be obvious. Most people know that an expert can tell you exactly where a piece of gold comes from - gold from North California does not look like gold from Southern California, which does not look like Alaska gold, which does not look like Georgia gold, which doesn't look like any other gold. The identification of gold ore has many people who are able to tell you what ore came from what mine in what state.

The Peralta Stones? Nothing - nothing at all, can be ascertained.

So the differences can be enlightening indeed - identifying ore is an exact science - geology. The Peralta Stones and other stones, are nothing more than guessing and beliefs at this point in time. We cannot even get an exact age. We know, for absolutely sure that the stones are old - all stones are old - the carving on them is a whole 'nother thing.

B

Hi Mrs. Oro - although I would like to agree with you, keep in mind the only "identification" of any kind done on what Walt Gassler had in his backpack was a fairly quick visual glance. Be careful not to confuse that with definite proof.

 

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[Cubfan64]

Cubfan,

I do have both of Tom's Books on the LDM. As I stated previously for Beth, testing was done via a Scanning Electron Microscope with attached Electron Dispersal Reading Attachment. Basically this bombards the sample and the electrons that are released from the ore are sampled and read, with levels of electrons shown as spikes on a graph (the bigger the spike the more electrons present).

The graph below was from Tom's first LDM Book. It was the tested ore sample from the Black Queen Mine (one of the storied possibilities of the sources of LDM Ore). For whatever reason, he decided not to publish the sample from the known Waltz Ore, but the fact that he published this result, means that he has the same graph for the Waltz Ore Test.

He used to hang around one of the LDM Forums, but they don't have a Forum on that site any more:

http://www.lostdutchmanmines.com/index.html

I will email him and ask if he minds releasing the Waltz Ore Test Results.

Best-Mike

Hi Mike,

Yup, I have no doubt that Dr. Glover has the spectrograms and analytical data to back up the conclusions, I just wish it would be accessible is all. I work as a chemist and have some coworkers who use SEM-EDX and TEM as well as other optical imaging, so while I'm far from an expert, I've got a pretty decent idea on what the analyses can and can't tell a person. Honestly I believe the evidence is there, but as I said, I'd really like to know more about the analysis itself and see the actual data to form my own conclusions - call me an "anal scientist" :P

As luck would have it, I recently acquired a piece of Black Queen ore myself and had one of my co-workers analyze it via SEM-EDX. The fingerprint was pretty darn close except that no silver was present in my sample. Granted they only scanned one spot and did it fairly quickly - that's why I'd like to know more about how the data was generated - I'm going to have them run it several more times on different portions of the ore and scan for a longer period of time to collect more data and see if silver shows up.

I saw Dr. Glover in October, but he could only stay at the Rendezvous for a short period of time and I hadn't gotten that "into" the ore analysis at that time. I may send him an e-mail as well

 

[ghostdog]

Mrs Oro, I was only putting the ring and matchbox in the same cateagory as the Peralta stones and stone Crossse"s as not being authenicated. I agree that a carveing on a old rock does not make the carveing old. I also agree that all ore has its own fingerprints. I have seen ore that looks vey similiar in nature to the ore shown on the jewlery pieces. Basicially I am just questioning the Provinonce of the matchbox and ring inlaid ore as being original Waltz ore. There has to be a authenicated document trail for this to be Waltz"s ore.

 

[alaskabill]

To All...

I am encouraged by these last several posts about the Dutchman's gold assay. If those of you who know and have a closer contact with Dr. Glover can convince him to post the assay report, we finally might get closer to an answer to where the Dutchman's gold might have come from.

I am purely an amateur prospector and do not know enough about what assays can and cannot tell me. I would assume that samples of ore from different locations in the same mine might not have exactly the same assay results. But I suppose that general characteristics do exist that identify these different ore samples as products of the same ore body in the mine. Am I correct?

Visually, looking at the images of the matchbox, etc supposedly made from the Dutchman's ore, the sample looks very much like the jewelry gold coming out of the 16 to 1 mine in CA. I bought a piece mounted in a necklace for my wife a few years ago. However, the Dutchman's ore looks like it is more of an off white or rose quartz rather than the almost pure white quartz from the 16 to 1.

Bill

 

[gollum]

I will say one thing about that test.

I doubt it will be made available. I assume that is why the results he published were those of the Black Queen Mine rather than the result we all want to see. I say this because if YOU owned those results, AND HAD AN ACTIVE INTEREST IN FINDING THE LDM, would you openly publish something that could possibly allow a person to sample rocks (not necessarily from inside the mine) that could be tested and show a mineral content almost identical to the Matchbox or Camp Ore Samples? If you had those rocks, you would undoubtedly be right near the LDM. A person could find the Lost Dutchman Mine without actually setting foot inside it!

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

I will say one thing about that test.

I doubt it will be made available. I assume that is why the results he published were those of the Black Queen Mine rather than the result we all want to see. I say this because if YOU owned those results, AND HAD AN ACTIVE INTEREST IN FINDING THE LDM, would you openly publish something that could possibly allow a person to sample rocks (not necessarily from inside the mine) that could be tested and show a mineral content almost identical to the Matchbox or Camp Ore Samples? If you had those rocks, you would undoubtedly be right near the LDM. A person could find the Lost Dutchman Mine without actually setting foot inside it!

Best-Mike

Yup - that's my thought too Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Anyone who has done the amount of research that Dr. Glover has, probably harbors dreams of finding the LDM. IMHO, they are all "Dutch Hunters". I believe most of those people, including Dr. Glover, have their dreams on.......hold. All of them are aware of the mine that was worked in the late 90's, and how closely it matches the LDM.

The ore that was taken out of that pit mine will probably never be tested against the "known" LDM ore. If it is, I would guess that has already happened. Bob Corbin told us, at the Rendezvous, that the statute of limitations for illegal mining in the Superstitions is seven years. If that's the case, it's run out on the pit mine being called the "Silver Chief".

I asked one of the people who I suspectd of working that mine, if it was the LDM. He replied that "everyone knows that the Silver Chief is a Silver Mine." At this point in time, he has changed his tune. It seems a very good bet, that the pit mine is not the Silver Chief.

My guess is, that the people who did that mining have other interests that might be put at risk if they admitted they were the ones who did that illegal work.

I have posted pictures of ore, given to me by the person who took the photos, and he said he was positive they came out of that mine. In my personal opinion.......he would know.

I believe it's only a matter of time before the entire story is told.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul and Mike,

There is not one speck of "LDM" ore, that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Jacob Waltz. Until that mine is found, ore removed and tested against what is purported to have come from Jacob's mine, no positive match can ever be made. I don't believe the testing that Dr. Glover had done will ever help anyone find the LDM, but it could help to confirm they have actually found it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul and Mike,

There is not one speck of "LDM" ore, that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Jacob Waltz. Until that mine is found, ore removed and tested against what is purported to have come from Jacob's mine, no positive match can ever be made. I don't believe the testing that Dr. Glover had done will ever help anyone find the LDM, but it could help to confirm they have actually found it.

Take care,

Joe

I don't follow you Joe. If there isn't a speck of ore that can positively be attributed to the LDM or Waltz, what's the point of comparing any tests and making any conclusions about "Dutchman Ore?"

If it's true that each ore has it's own "fingerprint," so to speak, then certainly an analysis such as what Dr. Glover had done could confirm a "match/no match" status. It would also stand to reason that there is the potential for someone to analyze ore samples of likely locations and "narrow down" their search to those sites where the same elements in the same ratio's are located - maybe not specifically finding the LDM, but at least narrowing the search.

You may be correct about the "rest of the story"coming out someday, but I don't see it as cut and dried as you do at this time.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Few people agree with all of my conclusions......about anything. That's what makes them uniquely mine.

The point in doing the testing seems fairly simple to me. Like many Dutch Hunters, Dr. Glover is methodically removing the sources that are not the LDM, as best he can. The Vulture matching LDM ore is a rumor that has been around for many decades. On page 282, I believe Thomas has put that rumor to rest.

I think my statement is correct........for now.

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Ok then , I believe a Assy Report was done a long time ago on the Dutchmans ore, and it most likely did not turn out so unique. So why publish it and break the myth and mystery. So without a Assy Report, any ore from the Supers. could be classified as Dutchman ore. No proof any ore will gladly say I am from the LDM. case ......

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I remember the court battle back in, what 1979 or 1980? There was a claim that they were sure was the LDM - Chuck Crawford, I believe.

He presented an assay report. I think it said 3 oz to the ton, or something to that effect. The claim was the Cheryl Anne.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

Ghostdog wrote

Basicially I am just questioning the Provinonce of the matchbox and ring inlaid ore as being original Waltz ore. There has to be a authenicated document trail for this to be Waltz"s ore.

The "provenance" of Waltz's ore can not be documented amigo - read up and you will see. Under the deathbed of Waltz was found a candlebox of that ore. It ended up in possession of Dick Holmes, whom sold it off a little at a time to finance his search for the mine. We have only the word of Holmes, and of Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch who also laid claim to the gold. Holmes had one assay done (required by the gold buyer) which was done by Joe Porterie. You may be able to track a copy of this assay down, it supposedly came out $110,000 per ton at the old $20.67 per ounce.

You are grouping the matchbox and ring together amigo Ghostdog, which we ought not logically do - the matchbox can be traced at least verbally to Waltz, while the ring cannot. The ring is made of ore which someone believes is the Lost Dutchman mine, we have no proof of this idea at all. The ore in the ring has some visual differences to the matchbox ore, which a geologist could make some statements on - having never held either example in hand with a magnifying glass I hesitate to make conclusions but suspect they are not from the same mine. If I were forced to make a guess, I would say that ring ore came from a quite different type of gold vein, an epithermal deposit. That is making a wild guess based on photos with my poor eyesight, they very well MAY be from the same mine. There are a FEW other pieces of ore which are supposed to be from Waltz's mine.

The identification of the ore said to be taken from Walt Gassler's pack was done by Tom Kollenborn. Mr Kollenborn holds a masters degree, and is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced Dutch-hunters living, having written and published articles on the geology of the Superstition mountains. I personally trust Kollenborn's assessment of that alleged Gassler sample, even if done only by a visual inspection in a brief moment. I am sure this basis is not enough for many people, it is enough for myself personally.

I make no claim to being a geologist, but have a fair amount of experience prospecting along with studying geology as best I can without college. Geology is an exact science, making conclusions about stone inscriptions age and origins <epigraphy> is not. That we cannot produce a trail of documentation for the Waltz gold specimens is granted, but it is gold ore which does not match any KNOWN source, so the ore vein/mine remains LOST. Comparing this fact to the provenance of the Peralta Stones, the stones can be traced to Tumlinson, his story being that he found them alongside the highway. As Cactusjumper posted, the stone itself comes from a considerable distance away, sources NOT within the Superstitions, the experts whom have examined them have stated opinions they are of modern origins. How can we lump these mysterious curiosities in with a genuine article, rich gold ore? I fail to see the logic there amigo, so must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

Ghostdog also wrote

So without a Assy Report, any ore from the Supers. could be classified as Dutchman ore. No proof any ore will gladly say I am from the LDM. case

You are mistaken here amigo, for only the ore from the same mine will match the ore in Waltz's matchbox. A geologist would be able to tell you with the certainty of fingerprints - so I again have to respectfully disagree about "any ore could be classified as Dutchman ore" absolutely.

The infamous matchbox, so frequently mis-identified as a "lighter" due to the resemblance

Compare to this ore specimen


One last bit and I will close this long-winded post - it should not be too surprising for GOLD to come from a SILVER mine. The amount of gold to silver in any mine varies, especially as one mines deeper in the vein. Silver mines in the Tombstone district were found to have good gold values as the water table was reached, a result of (by the theory of one geologist anyway) the silver being more chemically reactive to the environment, "leaching" out of the ore leaving the gold behind. So despite the old song about looking for gold in a silver mine, it is a natural feature of geology. Kind of makes us old prospectors want to give those old silver mines a second look!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - just for the edification of our beginners whom are likely reading our discussion but not actively posting, here is what Rose Quartz looks like

Unfortunately I do not have a photo of gold IN Rose Quartz, but I think you can see the difference. The photos of the matchbox occasionally have a rather reddish cast, which gives a slight color perception problem. Anyone have a photo of Breyfogle's ore?
Oroblanco

 

[ghostdog]

Oro, thanks for the education. This is not a easy subject to grasp peroid.
When you publish your book, I will be in line to purchase a copy. I love the photos of the ores,especially the rose quartz. I can just imagine the rose quartz studded with gold or silver nuggets. This is what drives me to prospect. Your points are well taken by me, and I thank you for your time.
Regards to you and your ORE,gd

 

[Oroblanco]

Ghostdog thank you for the kind words - and I hope I have not presented the 'argument' in an offensive way. You brought up very valid points which many a treasure hunter has been confused about. I think that too many treasure hunters out hunting for a lost MINE, don't bother to learn anything about geology which would be very helpful in their quest. Instead they rely ONLY on clues and/or maps, which as far as I know, have resulted in very few discoveries and many a disappointment. If anything I said came across offensive or "know it all" my apologies as no offense was intended. And I surely am very far from knowing it all, geology, treasure hunting or any other subject!

The ore from the Amargosa gold mine in California is gold in rose quartz and VERY pretty, IMHO it ought to have been made into jewelry - unfortunately most (if not all) has gone through the mill and the gold melted but there might be some photos floating around. I am still looking for a decent photo of gold in rose quartz, for you know we have more readers here than we have active posters and it is for their benefit as well.

I will be happy to drop you a note as soon as the book is out, though what I have been working on has nothing to do with the Lost Dutchman, Peralta Stones or lost treasures of any kind so I hope I have not been misleading you (or anyone reading our discussions) with the subject matter.

Ghostdog - I have a question for you, do you think we will learn the truth about the Peralta Stones, within say the next 20 years? I know that some new technologies are being developed, which might enable an exact date or nearly so, to be determined for those engravings. What do you think? Thank you in advance,
your friend in "Dakota Territory"
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[ghostdog]

Well Roy , unless some new imformation crops up that can establish a chain of proveinonce to the Peralta Stones, I see them as remaining a enigma shrouded in continued conterversy. It makes a very interesting aside to everything else that is associated with the Peraltas,Dutchman and the Superstitions. One thing for sure Time is on the side of the Peralta Stones,they will outlast us all. I think Shakespear said" to be or not to be that is the question " and yes new scientific techniques can play a identifeying role and maybe they will.gd

 

[cactusjumper]

GD,

I am not sure that this applies to the two trail maps, but the people at the museum believe they are fakes. I have personally been told that.....in private, but doubt you will ever hear them say that in public. The Peralta Stone Maps continue to be a draw for the museum.

The only archaeology professionals (willing to put their names in a public article) to examine the stones, label them fakes.

I have little doubt they are correct, but can tell you that the trail maps are legitimate maps of the Superstitions. That means they were created by someone who is very familiar with the terrain and the stories and legends of the mountains.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Ghostdog wrote

Well Roy , unless some new imformation crops up that can establish a chain of proveinonce to the Peralta Stones, I see them as remaining a enigma shrouded in continued conterversy. It makes a very interesting aside to everything else that is associated with the Peraltas,Dutchman and the Superstitions. One thing for sure Time is on the side of the Peralta Stones,they will outlast us all. I think Shakespear said" to be or not to be that is the question " and yes new scientific techniques can play a identifeying role and maybe they will.gd

I take it that you want more history beyond Tumlinson's discovery of them? Not to be the wet blanket but you will not get any more history back past that point. As our mutual amigo Cactusjumper has already pointed out, the experts who did examine them pronounced them fakes. Now we do not have to accept that verdict, and they COULD be mistaken, in which case what are they?

The man who found them used them to try to find hidden treasures, without luck. Many others have followed suit, with similar lack of results. As maps to treasures, the Peralta Stones are a singular example for lack of results. Whether they are real maps to lost treasures and/or mines or are, as several experts concluded pure fakes, I personally would not bother trying to use them to find treasures based on the results others have had with them. So I do not recommend the Peralta Stones to anyone, but have no problem with anyone who chooses to try their luck.

I would sooner recommend almost any of the over 60 maps online at the Apache Junction public library site, before these Peralta stones, in fact ONE of them I have very strong suspicions is real and possibly<almost> correct. Please don't ask me which one!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

Frank Fish's map?

Take care,

Joe