Lost Dutchman Mine vs. Hidden Caches

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

djuicy, my friends: Forgive this bit of transgression, but I want to shake up Oro a bit. See attached pictures.

There is a hidden, very rich Gold mine worked by a Mexican grandee in the 1800's down below. There still are orange trees there, but they have reverted. Is this by any chance El Naranjal?

There is a hidden cave with many Gold bars still inside that an Indian found, He used to go back whenever he needed money and cut off some gold. He is now dead, but no-one has found the cave despite following him many times. Hint, another Indian asked me "why is there a iron bar driven in the cliff over an normally inaccessible area" ? I might add, an area that shows caves with no access.

That is my tiger after two weeks in the bush. My friend is painting the data on the other side of the monument for Teter's mine, 400 Has.

Beth, buy him some fingernail enhancers.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I told you that I was mean.

p.p.s. I couldn't find the Naranjal site, so I am relying upon Oro to open new site if he can't find it..

 

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[arkhunter]

thank you for the great pics.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

So, Jose -

You are a card player, also - aren't you


B

 

[Cubfan64]

Shame on you RDT!!!!

I have a good job and a nice house - every time I read a post like yours I want to sell it all, grab my wife and head out exploring for the rest of my life!!!

I hate you!!!! (just kidding)

 

[djui5]

There is a hidden cave with many Gold bars still inside that an Indian found, but no-one has found the cave despite following him many times.

I'll bet I could find it

I love those pictures of Tayopa country. The mountains are so rugged. It's incredible

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Beth---------- 5th---------, but I am a meanie. Just ask Djuicy, who, incidentally will put that post in the proper place. And no, I am not referring to outhouses.

Has Roy recovered yet? Remember I am 'not' saying that it IS El Naranjal, but what a coincidence no? If, by chance, it IS El Naranjal, then see just how easily it is to move the other famous lost mines etc around. The Lost Dutchman mine, the Lost Adams mine, and on.

Many locations have been twisted by different sources, sometimes by a single unintentionally, mistaken author who's article is then believed to be the bible on them. Tayopa is a simple example.

Soooo people, do your homework on all of the accumulated data, not just on a single document, which has probably borrowed from many, who in turn were mistaken. There is a reason why they haven't been found in spite of any physical difficulties.

Give Oro a shot of Plum Saki Beth, and remind him that he / you, as well as others, have a lot of work to do later.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Don Jose', el gringo de la Mancha wrote

Give Oro a shot of Plum Saki Beth, and remind him that he / you, as well as others, have a lot of work to do later.

I think it is going to take something with a little more kick than saki, like tequila. So El Naranjal is found too? Hmm may be less 'work' for me than expected in Old Mexico?

Your point about an error in the first published account of a lost mine or treasure likely resulting in the error being repeated and even expounded on, is a strong argument for exactly WHY these lost mines remain lost. I don't have Bicknell's very first article on the LDM handy but he referred to it as Waltz's "buried treasure". He makes no mention of there being more than a single cache.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Jose,

You say "unintentional", but any errors in locations were most likely "INtentional". If you are a treasure hunter searching for lost treasures and mines, and happen to be writing a book or article, would you REALLY include your REAL best guess as to their locations?

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Roy,

Another thing that you aren't taking into account is the fact that a LOT of what we know today was not known to many people until fairly recently. When we get one person's account of something, that account is from a very narrow perspective.

That's true even back into the 1990s. The more time goes by without anything being found, the more information will come to light. The further back in time 1891 fades, the less important all that "secret" information becomes to the second and third generations of Dutch Hunter Families.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Jose,

You say "unintentional", but any errors in locations were most likely "INtentional". If you are a treasure hunter searching for lost treasures and mines, and happen to be writing a book or article, would you REALLY include your REAL best guess as to their locations?

Best-Mike

Hola Mike - why do you state these errors were most likely intentional? I know of a few instances of this, but really quite few when you compare with the many lost mines/lost treasures stories. Taking Bicknell for instance, our first author on record to tell us of the LDM; do you have some example(s) in his version which you can state are definitely intentional errors? Thank you in advance.

Roy,

Another thing that you aren't taking into account is the fact that a LOT of what we know today was not known to many people until fairly recently. When we get one person's account of something, that account is from a very narrow perspective.

That's true even back into the 1990s. The more time goes by without anything being found, the more information will come to light. The further back in time 1891 fades, the less important all that "secret" information becomes to the second and third generations of Dutch Hunter Families.

Best-Mike

Well an argument could be put forth to say that much of this additional information is not necessarily "coming to light" so much as being invented. We need only look at Storm for examples of outside info and pure invention being blended into the original story. Certainly some information, for example that which was held in secret for a lifetime, can and does come to light upon the death of the possessor of that information; but as in the case with the LDM caches of gold ore, I can't seem to pinpoint when or where the three original caches (of which only one was still in existence, according to Ely and Bicknell) became multiplied into more? None of the oldest versions seem to mention more than that, so somewhere, someone added to it. I wonder who and why?
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I think you might both be right.

There is an old adage, which I think applies very well here - whether its the Lost Dutchman or any other lost treasures that people have talked about. (especially since we are talking many many years).

"Once you eliminate the impossible, then, whatever is left, however improbable, has to be the truth"

Of course, I might add to that, a little, by saying "Once you eliminate the impossible, disprove the improbable, what's left has to be the truth".

We (dutchhunters) have had many years to eliminate the impossible, and are currently on the track of disproving the improbable, so, what will be left, will be the truth. Of course, truth, like beauty, can be in the eyes of the beholder.

B

 

[gollum]

Jose,

You say "unintentional", but any errors in locations were most likely "INtentional". If you are a treasure hunter searching for lost treasures and mines, and happen to be writing a book or article, would you REALLY include your REAL best guess as to their locations?

Best-Mike

Hola Mike - why do you state these errors were most likely intentional? I know of a few instances of this, but really quite few when you compare with the many lost mines/lost treasures stories. Taking Bicknell for instance, our first author on record to tell us of the LDM; do you have some example(s) in his version which you can state are definitely intentional errors? Thank you in advance.

Roy,

Another thing that you aren't taking into account is the fact that a LOT of what we know today was not known to many people until fairly recently. When we get one person's account of something, that account is from a very narrow perspective.

That's true even back into the 1990s. The more time goes by without anything being found, the more information will come to light. The further back in time 1891 fades, the less important all that "secret" information becomes to the second and third generations of Dutch Hunter Families.

Best-Mike

Well an argument could be put forth to say that much of this additional information is not necessarily "coming to light" so much as being invented. We need only look at Storm for examples of outside info and pure invention being blended into the original story. Certainly some information, for example that which was held in secret for a lifetime, can and does come to light upon the death of the possessor of that information; but as in the case with the LDM caches of gold ore, I can't seem to pinpoint when or where the three original caches (of which only one was still in existence, according to Ely and Bicknell) became multiplied into more? None of the oldest versions seem to mention more than that, so somewhere, someone added to it. I wonder who and why?
Oroblanco

Roy,

You are saying that somehow Bicknell's version got multiplied. How do you know that to be the case? Where did Glover get the story about Rhiney? Seems it was a different source. Bicknell's version may have never been changed at all.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

You are saying that somehow Bicknell's version got multiplied. How do you know that to be the case? Where did Glover get the story about Rhiney? Seems it was a different source. Bicknell's version may have never been changed at all.

Mike

Not just Bicknell's version amigo - Ely's version also says three caches, only one still having anything in it. Sims Ely, like Bicknell, actually interviewed Julia Thomas. With virtually everything related to the LDM, we are forced to rely on secondhand, third-hand or even worse sources. The best we can do is those who interviewed Julia, Reiney and Dick Holmes, for none of these people (who actually spoke with Waltz) left us their own version. In these earliest versions, we have only three caches, two of which were emptied while Waltz was still alive. Even Barry Storm's first book mentions only a single cache. Who first published that there were more? Why did they say there were more? You have pointed out the "intentional" errors, well this looks like it very well might be one - to have inflated the one remaining cache into several or many.

What story about Rhiney are you referring to, that differs from the original sources? There is a story that Rhiney short-changed Waltz once on some gold he took to sell for the old man, but I don't recall if that is in Glover's book. There are 'other sources' which fill in additional info, but all of a peripheral nature (as in employment records, birth/death certifs etc) these do serve to paint the background of the story and give it factual roots but what original source mentions more than one cache?

I am aware of the "other" version, in that one there is no mention of any caches at all, which is understandable since those people knew Waltz at an earlier time, before he had moved to Phoenix. <And before I get a PM requesting a linkee, sorry as far as I know, none of the interviews are anywhere on the internet - need to hit the Arizona State library archives for starters, and ask to see them>
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

I want to add something, on Tom Kollenborn. The fact that he published both sides of the LDM argument does not reduce his standing in my eyes in any way - he was most probably just presenting both sides of the argument. Even in this example I posted, he did say MAYBE the ore beneath Waltz's bed was just his own 'rainy day fund', he didn't say that was his own viewpoint. Kollenborn is an excellent historian, especially of the Superstitions and did a lot to sort out the facts from the tremendous amount of fiction out there, I rank him very high even though I have never met the man and do not know him. I read his articles online regularly, and consider myself a fan.

Some people read the word "maybe" as "definitely", it seems.

So what about that report that Waltz's cache had been found and cleaned out, from the first post of this thread

<Gollum wrote>

I have read that a man named Henry Burns found , at least, one of those caches in the 1950s. Henry Burns is a story unto himself that has received far too little attention (maybe on purpose). In the late 1800s, the wagon train he and his family were traveling West with was ambushed by Apaches. Most were killed. At nine years old, he was kept with the Apache until being released at age 19. After being released, he went to a place where the Apache used to visit and built a small ranch. There, he located several silver claims. He also traded silver, gems (Superstition Amethyst), and other things with the Apache. He supposedly found several of the Peralta Mines. One supposedly contained on of Jacob Waltz' caches of bonanza gold ore.

Is this true, or bogus? If it is true, then there are no more caches to find, and finding the MINE is going to be extra difficult, as Waltz told Julia, "you can't find one without the other". I would like to know the truth of this matter, and thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Not just Bicknell's version amigo - Ely's version also says three caches, only one still having anything in it. Sims Ely, like Bicknell, actually interviewed Julia Thomas. With virtually everything related to the LDM, we are forced to rely on secondhand, third-hand or even worse sources. The best we can do is those who interviewed Julia, Reiney and Dick Holmes, for none of these people (who actually spoke with Waltz) left us their own version. In these earliest versions, we have only three caches, two of which were emptied while Waltz was still alive. Even Barry Storm's first book mentions only a single cache. Who first published that there were more? Why did they say there were more? You have pointed out the "intentional" errors, well this looks like it very well might be one - to have inflated the one remaining cache into several or many.

What story about Rhiney are you referring to, that differs from the original sources? There is a story that Rhiney short-changed Waltz once on some gold he took to sell for the old man, but I don't recall if that is in Glover's book. There are 'other sources' which fill in additional info, but all of a peripheral nature (as in employment records, birth/death certifs etc) these do serve to paint the background of the story and give it factual roots but what original source mentions more than one cache?]
_____________________________________________________

In the portion of your statement that I highlighted, I assume you are speaking of a Waltz cache. I believe he only mentions Waltz burying a cache of "Wiser's" personal effects after he shot him. On the other hand, he does mention:

"With the greatest of haste Pedro ordered the mules loaded with as much of the golden concentrates as they could carry. The balance was buried near the mines; note of its locatiion and that of the richest bonanzas was chiseled into solid rock upon the black topped mountain."

I believe that is the only mention, in Storm's first book, of a cache of gold, other than: "Perhaps he (Waltz) had a secret cache in the Superstitions in which he hid the choicest of his ore."

I could, of course, be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

After a closer reading of Tom Glover's Book, I saw that his source for a lot of the Petrasch/Holmes/Waltz' Death/caches were the Edwards, B. Family notes and documents (Privately Held).

Joe,

Maybe you know if that B. Edwards is Benjamin Edwards (former Sergeant Benjamin Edwards)?


Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

It would be no problem to find out for sure, but I assume it is the same Edwards. Personally, I would not give two cents for information out of the "Edwards Family Notes". I have serious doubts about their authenticity.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

After a closer reading of Tom Glover's Book, I saw that his source for a lot of the Petrasch/Holmes/Waltz' Death/caches were the Edwards, B. Family notes and documents (Privately Held).

Joe,

Maybe you know if that B. Edwards is Benjamin Edwards (former Sergeant Benjamin Edwards)?


Mike

I do not know if this is the case. On a little checking however, I think we can safely rule out Henry Burns bonanza gold as having come from the Dutchman's mine however, as it is described as a black and purple quartz, which is quite different from any specimen or description of Waltz's ore vein. Of course this version of Henry Burns gold I found may well have it wrong, but until I see something to the contrary I will rule out Burns' gold as having come from Waltz's mine.

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe that is the only mention, in Storm's first book, of a cache of gold, other than: "Perhaps he (Waltz) had a secret cache in the Superstitions in which he hid the choicest of his ore."

On page 62? I have this one handy, and I think you are correct, and note to our readers even Storm has it as "..a secret cache" not a group of caches. Now I have an excuse to re-read a decent book.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

My uncle put a lot of faith in his copy of Storm's book and that first edition, which I have, sent both of us down a long and rewarding road. That first book, as well as those that followed, were mostly fiction with a liberal sprinkling of fact mixed in.

I think the closest we can get to what happened with Jacob Waltz, can be found in the Bark Notes and Sims Ely's book.....End of story. Not saying those two sources are nothing but the truth, but as they relate to Jacob Waltz and his mine, IMHO, it just goes downhill from there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

From what you have said, Tom Glover's Book is one of the best out there, but if you look at the notes, you will see that he relies pretty heavily on those Edwards Family Documents. Does this mean that his book is not quite as definitive as it seemed?

Mike