The Two Soldiers

[Loke]

Unfortuneately I'm a long way from the Superstitions (been there once, though - hoping to get back). I have been following the LDM-topics for some few years now and it always seems to boil down to: "he said this, she said that - who can we trust?" Seeing that the LDM has not yet (as far as we know) been found, maybe we are all barking up the wrong tree?
What I have _not_ seen is a diligent search of which way the two soldiers took (or was most likely to take). I know there is no hard facts saying that what they found is actual reality, but (to me anyway) it makes some kind of sense ... (rightly or wrongly).

I'm also a newbie to google-earth and I _know_ (don't even have to read between the lines!) that said piece of software is frowned upon as not being the real thing - to which I whole-heartedly agree - but ...
What it can do is to give you a purdy good overview over the most likely route that they may have taken ... as far as I can see - given where they came from and where they were going - LaBarge seems to be a more than obvious choice. OK - I stand corrected, but I would like hear the opinion of others who knows a lot more about it than I do.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hi Loke,

I assume you are the same Loke who used to post on the LDM Forum. In any case, welcome to TreasureNet.

As I have always maintained.......If the Two Soldier's story is true, which I doubt, I can't imagine why they would choose that route. The easiest, best travelled trail would lead them across the Verde or south across the Salt and then east on the Stagecoach Road all the way to the Silver King.

On the other hand, Don Shade, who was a friend of Barry Storms, claimed that Storm told him he made the story up. He states that others have added to this story over the years, including inserting the name of an Arizona pioneer, Charles Panknin.

Thought I would give someone else a chance to jump in here first, but since that doesn't seem to be happening, thought I would give you my two-cents worth.

Once again, glad to see you here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

In the summer of 1880, two young soldiers appeared in the town of Pinal. They had recently been discharged from Fort McDowell and were looking for work at the Silver King Mine, operated by Aaron Mason. They also asked him to take a look at some gold ore they had found while crossing Superstition Mountain. Mason was stunned to see a bag of extremely rich gold ore. Where had they found it?

The soldiers explained that they had been on the mountain and had flushed a deer into one of the canyons. On their way out, they found the remains of an old a tunnel and mine. This small bag of gold was only a little of what could be found there.

Mason asked them if they could find the place again and they believed they could, having been scouts for the Army and very conscious of the details of the landscape. They remembered the mine being in the northerly direction of a sharp peak (which Mason was sure was Weaver’s Needle) and in very rough country. A narrow trail had led from the peak and into the valley where they found the mine.

The soldiers admitted however, they knew little about mining. Would Mason go into partnership with them? He agreed and purchased the ore they brought with them for $700, then helped them get outfitted for their return to the mine. They left Pinal the next day... and never returned.

Mason waited two weeks and then sent out a search party. The nude body of one of the soldiers was found beside a trail leading to the mountain. He had been shot in the head. The other man was found the next day and had been killed in the same manner. “The Apache Trail combines the grandeur of the Alps, the glory of the Rockies, the magnificence of the Grand Canyon and then adds the indefinable something that none of the others have. To me it is the most beautiful panorama nature has created.”

- President Theodore Roosevelt

The most ancient highway in all of North America, the Apache Trail flaunts its irresistible beauty with mighty canyons, jagged mountain peaks, and sparkling desert lakes while exuding the flavor and romance of the old West. As one of the most scenic drives in the country, it is also one of the most dangerous.
The two soldiers, that had traveled this same area, after being discharged from Ft.Mcdowell. . They flushed out a deer and shot it. While tracking the wounded creature down, they happened upon a dark red outcropping of rich gold ore. Later, the two were found dead near Black Top Mesa in the Superstitions. --

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

These guys are highly recommended Few, if any, mountain ranges of the American West have stirred the imagination like the Superstition Mountains. These majestic monoliths have long been the subject of mystery, Indian lore and tales of lost treasures of gold. The Spanish were the first Europeans to discover the Superstition Mountains which were probably named by early settlers and farmers who heard the stories of mystery, strange happenings and how the Pima Indians feared the sacred grounds of the Apache. Geronimo was reported seen stepping into rock walls and disappearing without a trace for days. Could the scores of crevices, caves and openings in the Superstitions be the doorways of the underground tunnel system of the “Little People” or “Tuar-Tums” that are said to live below ground? Journey with us into yesterday. Travel the paths of the “Lady of the Mountain” and the “White Stallion” that are said to guard the mountain treasures such as the Lost Dutchman’s Goldmine.

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As your guide weaves the trails and tales, behold breath-taking scenery and wildlife. Experience the grandeur and diversity as you step through a gateway into the past. Marvel at this land filled with riches, history and lore.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Being there…….priceless! Call (480) 982-7661 to reserve your memorable experience today.

Not traveling with a daypack or stick? Not to worry – we have loaner equipment as well as items you can purchase to use again on another adventure.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[Loke]

Hi Loke,

I assume you are the same Loke who used to post on the LDM Forum. In any case, welcome to TreasureNet.

As I have always maintained.......If the Two Soldier's story is true, which I doubt, I can't imagine why they would choose that route. The easiest, best travelled trail would lead them across the Verde or south across the Salt and then east on the Stagecoach Road all the way to the Silver King.

On the other hand, Don Shade, who was a friend of Barry Storms, claimed that Storm told him he made the story up. He states that others have added to this story over the years, including inserting the name of an Arizona pioneer, Charles Panknin.

Thought I would give someone else a chance to jump in here first, but since that doesn't seem to be happening, thought I would give you my two-cents worth.

Once again, glad to see you here.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks Joe! (one minute - I'm just gonna put someone on 'ignore')
Yes, I am indeed the same Loke - and thanks for the welcome.
It seems that I've been badly mistaken about the two soldiers, I really, really thought that their story was a true one, and it has always puzzled me why nobody seemed to pay more attention to their story - guess I now know why ... :-(
I must admit I am not as feverous about the LDM as most posters - and for the lack of organization I try to rely on memory ... Well, as you know - that is failing facility as one grows older ...
I was playing around with google earth and then I thought I'd try to see where the two soldiers might have crossed ... and then the LaBarge seemed an almost perfect fit - at least terrain-wise - ah well, I never thought google-earth would ever lead to any huge revelations and I know there is no substitute for actually 'being' there - but then - as I said - the two soldiers seemed to me to be kind-of overlooked so I thought I'd throw it out and see what happened ...
Anyways - nice to see you again!

 

[Cubfan64]

I never thought google-earth would ever lead to any huge revelations

WH....WH.....WHAAAAAAAAATTTTT??

Don't you know that many treasures can be discovered by sitting in the living room eating cheetos and scanning Google Earth?

Welcome to TNet - it can be a very interesting place

Joe - I'm at work so I can't check, but did both Bark and Ely also recount the story of the "two soldiers?" If so, do you believe then that they both picked the story up from Storm? Does that timeframe work out with Bark dying in 1938?

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

The Lost Dutchman Mine

101 Clues !

1) There are three big peaks above the mine to the west. (Bark to Spangler)

2) A north running canyon. (Waltz to Petrasch)

3) The north running canyon is filled with potholes. (Gassler)

4) There is a stone wall in a shelving cave near the mine. (Mitchell)

5) The rays of the setting sun will shine into the tunnel mouth when the mine is open. (Mitchell)

6) The vein runs 400 feet down the mountainside. (Waltz)

7) Look for the shadow of Weavers Needle at 4 pm during the winter solstice. (Various)

8) No cowboy will find my mine. (Waltz)

9) Near the head of the gulch is an old stone cabin foundation directly opposite the mine. (Mitchell)

10) The trail is monumented with two stones, one on top of the other. (Bark)

11) Its high up, yet you have got to go down. (Deering to Chunning)

12) Look for 3 boulders shaped like wickiups high up on the side of a mountain. (Apache woman to Scholey)

13) Theres a spirit that sleeps near the mine 4 hours a day. (Apache Jack)

14) A funnel-shaped pit (Various)

15) There is a waterfall in the vicinity. (Robert Jacobs)

16) Say John, you have to go through a hole. (Deering to Chunning)

17) There is a symbol near the mine that contains a triangle, circle and crescent. (Diaz)

18) I marked the place with a frying pan placed on the middle peak. (Waltz to Petrasch)

19) There is a double pack horse trail that leads right up to the tunnel. (Herman Petrasch)

20) One needs to climb up about 40 feet to see Weavers Needle to the south. (Waltz)

21) Above the mine was a grassy ridge where we could leave the animals. (Waltz)

22) There is a cross cut into the side of the ravine above the mine. (Robert Jacobs)

23) Waltz covered the mine. He was afraid someone would notice it from the trail below or on the ridge across. (Aylor)

24) The shaft was 75 feet deep made in the Mexican style with flailing walls. (Bicknell)

25) Mine is on a well-terraced hill. Terraced like rice-paddies. (Peck)

26) Dutchman is 69 steps back and down in a ravine only about 50' wide and 200' long shaped like a "Y". (Williams)

27) Waltzs mine had an opening no bigger than a barrel. (Peck)

28) Two pits at the mine about 75 feet deep and a like distance across the top . (Bark)

29) Near the mine, perhaps covering the entrance, is a square rock with one elongated corner. (Peck)

30) Look for a triangle of Rocks. (Jacobs)

31) Just to one side of the mine is a square rock waist-high. (Williams)

32) The gravestone was located 250-300 feet due south of the mine itself and designated a specific crevasse between large boulders that one has to pass to locate the mine. (Petrasch to Synbad)

33) Three stones by themselves are the key to the mine. (Flores)

34) There is a line between two peaks that bisect the shaft. (B Holmes)

35) The hole is small and high up. (Yocum to Morrow)

36) The mine is a rat hole. (Walter Dixon to Dwyer)

37) Mine is on a little knob about 50 feet high at the very end of a peninsula. On this hill is a pile of rocksabout 10 feet away from the opening. (Erwin Ruth to Richard Peck)

38) The soldiers reported the mine as being a very small open cut or trench. (Chuck Aylor)

39) Go up out of a brushy canyon, over a flat and down into a pit. (Al Morrow)

40) Cave near headwaters. Needed rope to get in. (Geronimos great-grand daughter)

41) Tunnel opens onto a caynon floor. (Erwin Ruth)

42) When you find the mine you will be lying on your belly like everyone else who was ever there. (Smitty to Richard Peck)

43) All the old landmarks are still there. You can almost peek into the mine where the entrance has settled. The cave of hidden gold. (San Carlos Apaches 1965)

44) Dutchman was getting gold from a creek bed. There was a shaft in the bottom of the wash. (Clay Worst to Richard Peck)

45) Waltz described his mine as being high up, in an arroyo, and hidden by the natural contours of the land. From over the top of a low ridge you could see down the far side where there was a small clearing, an open hole and a mine dump. (Herman Petrasch)

46) The mine is so cunningly concealed that one could walk within a few feet and miss it. (Waltz)

47) On the steep slope 100 feet above them they spied two Indians breaking rock. (Waltz to Julia Thomas)

48) I had to climb up a small hill from the mine entrance to see the Needle. (Waltz)

49) Its less than two miles from Weavers Needle toward the Salt River. (Phipps to Storm)

50) Weavers Needle was nearby in plain sight. (Apache boys to Barry Storm)

51) Weavers Needle, Four Peaks, a river and the horses head could be seen from the mine. (Al Morrow)

52) The mine was on a twelve foot high ledge, the mine was an open hole and the mine was on the apex of a ridge.

53) The mine is close to a cave and is high up on a ledge. Petrasch spent years searching the canyons looking for a cave or an opening high up. (Richard Peck)

54) Waltz mine is on a twelve foot high shelf. (Synbad)

55) Near the mine is a face that looks right at the mine. (Storm)

56) A Sphinx overhangs and dominates the mine area. (John Reed)

57) Waltz told of a natural stone face sitting upon the end of a canyon below his mine. (Storm)

58) Up above the mine was a cliff like a horses head with one ear laid back. (Storm)

59) The mine was in a northerly direction from a sharp peak. (Aaron Mason)

60) The mine is right out in the open,. You could walk right over it and not know you were there. (John Spangler)

61) About 20 steps above a spring is the Dutchmans mine. ( Williams)

62) Mine is located near three natural water tanks in a canyon, one below the other, a short distance from the mine. (Indian to B Holmes)

63) Mine is near the head of a gulch. There is a small spring there with sufficient water for household use. (Aylor)

64) 39 steps to agua. 69 stepd to the mine. (Ruths Eagle Head Map)

65) Mine is in a draw that is well hidden. (Jacobs)

66) The mine lies in the middle of two oblong outcrops that run north south and are above the waterfall. (Stevens)

67) The mine is located in a ravine on the side of a canyon wall. (Conatser)

68) In a steep climbing arroyo high on a mountainside. (Morrow)

69) The mine is in a cave, but the entrance is sealed. (Diaz)

70) Gold buried in a cave in the Superstitions. (Geronimo to soldier at Ft Sill)

71) Indians always spoke about a cave. Mention the mine and they would say, no, the cave. Cave at base of cliff in a little canyon. (Peck)

72) Ruth described the junction of two canyons, one running north south flanked by high cliffs on either side. The other was brushy and came in from the east. Above this canyon junction Ruth expected to find a Spanish marker which would show him the trail. (Storm)

73) If you pass the three red hills you have gone too far. (Waltz)

74) There is a tunnel on the side of the hill and a pit above past the three red hills. (John Kochera)

75) The mine is above a brushy boulder choked little canyon. (Walter Gassler)



76) Trail goes up past a long draw from west end of the south side of the range, down past a cliff into a canyon leading to the river. Take the first right hand canyon out on a flat area, then climb to the pit. (John Walker)

77) Mine is on a steep slope under the lip of a cliff. (Tommy Wise)

78) Mine was on a hillside. (Sims Ely)

79) The logs covering the shaft were set at an angle to conform to the slope of the terrain. (Walter Dixon)

80) The ruins of the rock house did not have a roof. (Weiss)

81) There are four spires above the mine, three tall ones and one smaller. (Spangler)

82) The tunnel entrance is supposed to be shaped like a bell. (Waltz to Thomas)

83) You cant approach the mine from above or below, but have to enter from the side. (Waltz)

84) No miner will find my mine. (Waltz)

85) Theres a trick in the trail. You have to go through a hole. (Joe Deering)

86) I placed a monument near the mine and then placed four similar monuments in the canyon below. (Deering to Chunning)

87) You have to work your way down a water crevasse. The approach to the mine is dangerous. (Weiser)

88)There was a dangerous foot path down to the mine. (Peralta)

89) The area where the mine was located was all broken up. (Ballesteros)

90) 200 feet across from the cave. (Adolph Ruth)

91) Deering said the hole you go thru was "in a rock". (Chunning to Barkley)

92) Mine was a volcanic vent . (Sims Ely)

93) Salazars survey objective was to find a cave with a wall and three red hills. (Livingston)

94) One went down on a rope or ladder, the other two stayed up above. (Granillo)

95) When asked about landmarks from the mine entrance Brownie Holmes hesitated and said "You will see nothing. Only space."

96) The Mexicans always posted a sentry in a brushy canyon below the mine. He could not see, but could always hear, the miners.

97) There was a little bit of brush on the slope above the mine. (Reed)

98) We will throw a stick of dynamite into the opening because of the trap. (B Holmes)

99) Once the rock house was found one would go back down the canyon checking the west side of the canyon wall. Once he found the ___________ he would then find the ___________ and .......................

100) Peter thats a real sensitive subject. (Roberts to Esposito)
101) If someone is surreptitiously working the Lost Dutchman Mine. (Mr. Jim Hatt)

 

[gollum]

Tag

 

[cactusjumper]

Loke,

Good to see you posting as well.

"It seems that I've been badly mistaken about the two soldiers..."

To be clear, I don't suggest that you take anything anyone says as gospel. That includes, of course, me. If you like the story, follow it out in your own way until you have come to your own conclusions.

Nothing I or anyone else says about the LDM, or any of these stories, is written in stone......so to speak. We are all working off various sources and each has their own individual agenda in forwarding their version of the stories.

Many of the "experts" are only trying to elevate themselves in the limited circle of Dutch Hunters. In that respect, some of the most respected of them will make up the "facts" as they go along. Trust no one in pursuing your interests.
Check every story......even your own.

There are people who tell lies for so long that they become reality, for them. If they seem like straight shooters, their stories become reality for others as well. I have known many such men in my long association with the Superstition Mountains.

Once you realize that some "friends" are believing their own lies, you get a whole new perspective on the legends. Your best friend is scepticism.

In the shady world of unsolicited advice, that's the best advice I have ever given........anyone.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Paul,

As I said, don't take anyone's word, and that includes mine. My "facts" are, mostly, based on someone elses "facts".

Barry Storm was on the ground, I believe, well before Bark's death. That begs the question of when that story first started circulating in the area. Did it originate with Storm? Checking dates might be the best way to lay that "fact" to bed. In truth, it might be the only way at this late date.

We did some extensive jabber on that subject in the LDM Forum. Believe it was pretty well discussed on Peter's Forum as well. Steve told me that Peter had done a lot of research on the story. It was a favorite of his.

Take care,

Joe

 

[4Nines]

Subscribed!

 

[cactusjumper]

4Nines,

Thank you, and welcome to TreasureNet.

Are you a "Dutch Hunter"?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[4Nines]

4Nines,

Thank you, and welcome to TreasureNet.

Are you a "Dutch Hunter"?

Joe Ribaudo

Not yet But myself and my family are originally from NM. I figure since I'm not all that far away, I might just have to start doing some research and see if maybe this treasure hasn't been found because they made a detour through NM and ditched the loot

 

[Springfield]

... To be clear, I don't suggest that you take anything anyone says as gospel. That includes, of course, me. If you like the story, follow it out in your own way until you have come to your own conclusions.

Nothing I or anyone else says about the LDM, or any of these stories, is written in stone......so to speak. We are all working off various sources and each has their own individual agenda in forwarding their version of the stories.

Many of the "experts" are only trying to elevate themselves in the limited circle of Dutch Hunters. In that respect, some of the most respected of them will make up the "facts" as they go along. Trust no one in pursuing your interests. Check every story......even your own.

There are people who tell lies for so long that they become reality, for them. If they seem like straight shooters, their stories become reality for others as well. I have known many such men in my long association with the Superstition Mountains.

Once you realize that some "friends" are believing their own lies, you get a whole new perspective on the legends. Your best friend is scepticism...

Applies to all 'Lost Mines and Hidden Treasures', not mererly the LDM. Great post. This should be tattooed to every TH's right arm.

 

[Loke]

Yeah - I know what yall are saying (ooops - I actually believe 'yall' is singular, 'all yall' is plural !) - but ...
If we distrust everyone, that means every new TH has to start from scratch, without being able to learn from the mistakes of others. I prefer actually to be a trusting soul and not disbelieve someone until he/she is proven wrong. Obviously, I am not so blue-eyed that I think anyone will point out where I should go and I will find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but I would prefer to think that people are not actually lying but trying to hint at things - and maybe getting another hint or two in return ... *chuckles* there seems to be a lot of that going on in here ...
At the end of the day - I would presume that those _not_ talking in here (but maybe used to?) are the ones that actually may have found something.
I just don't know, but I find it all rather fascinating!! :-)

 

[cactusjumper]

Loke,

I believe the phrase is......."Trust, but verify".

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

4nines,

Welcome. I guess you like looking for things in the Shiprock and Truth or Consequences Areas? HAHAHA

Loke,

The thing about trust is.......there is a difference between trusting someone you meet and see face to face, and people on internet forums. They could be anybody and have any agendas. As some people have found out, even people you have known for a long time can surprise you (and not in a good way).

To me, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to, but when it comes to real trust, that has to be earned.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

... The thing about trust is.......there is a difference between trusting someone you meet and see face to face, and people on internet forums. They could be anybody and have any agendas. As some people have found out, even people you have known for a long time can surprise you (and not in a good way).

To me, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to, but when it comes to real trust, that has to be earned. ....

Re 'lost mines' and 'hidden treasure': the only information worth committing a serious recovery effort to is proprietory, ie, first-hand or family secrets, which does exist in very limited instances. The chances that you will be fortunate to aquire proprietory information is almost nil, and if you do, it will be information that is unknown to the rest of the world. All else is hearsay and by extension, unreliable.

Many TH-er's have a surprising amount of knowledge about the lore, have all the books, and have spent years in the field, but, like accomplished bird watchers, it's just a hobby that will never make them rich (unless they write a successful book, of course). I can only hope that newbies realize that their expenditures of time, energy, money and lost opportunities are for the fun of it, not for a chance of finding gold. Also, 99% or more of those 'accomplished TH-er's' who are 'in the know' and hint that they 'have found something' are liars.

Unfortunately, like religion, politics, economics, history and all other subjective studies, nearly everything the TH-er dearly believes is a lie. Makes for stimulating conversation and debate though.