PINTO CREEK

[mrs.oroblanco]

Yes, actually, I do.

If you read "Placer Gold Deposits of Arizona", you will find that a gentleman by the name of Nels P. Peterson mined for several years at Pinto Creek, somewhere not too far from the Haunted Canyon.

This information was gotten by the author directly from Mr. Peterson, and Mr. Peterson also has some writings of his own that I do not have right at my fingertips.

However, I can give you a link or two to some of the things he has written.

http://mcpl-websvr.co.midland.tx.us...FormId=-3152&ItemField=2&Config=YSM&Branch=,0,


I consider him a reliable source, since the USGS did.

Beth

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This got to be a very long reply, so I must beg your indulgence;

Not to throw a major monkey wrench into this discussion, but this Pit mine Joe has put forward would fit fairly well for Joe Deering's mine. Of course I would have to add that I am fairly convinced that the mine Deering found was not the mine of Jacob Waltz, and since we don't have any example of Deering's ore to make even a photo-comparison this is not much to go on.

I would also add here that difference between Blindbowman's theory and Cactusjumper's being one of whom is credited with the discovery, is the main difference. We still don't have an ore comparison. What we do have, that is silver sulfides on the ore dump, a mine with both shaft and tunnel in a district with at least two historical mines that likewise had both a shaft and tunnel, a photo of a specimen of ore that looks as if it has a high silver content; and the mine being located in a historic silver producing district but little gold, would tend to point toward the Pit mine not being the same as Waltz's mine.

I mentioned this earlier but you can pick other mines in the region and then match up one or more Dutchman clues to show that they must be the lost mine. With over 100 clues to pick from, this process is easier than you might think. The problem arises when we try to match the ore to that from Waltz.

It is a good theory and MAY be the lost Dutchman mine; I sure can't prove it isn't and it doesn't look like we are going to get an ore comparison. We don't know for a fact that Waltz's mine was in fact a chimney type deposit, that was surmised by other prospectors in his time but according to Waltz the vein crops out some distance from where he was mining it, which would not be in keeping with the form of most chimney type lodes. Is it possible for a chimney of gold ore to shoot up inside a silver deposit? Of course, gold is where you find it after all - one the the greatest gold producers of all time was originally dismissed by geologists as impossible since they "knew" that gold could not occur in that type of rock (the Witwaterstrand in South Africa) so it would not be safe to say it is impossible for a chimney to occur in a silver vein. It is not uncommon for a silver mine to have a gold-enriched zone either, as mentioned earlier this was found to be the case in several excellent silver mines in the Tombstone district.

Waltz's ore has been classified as Mesothermal, I would call it Hypothermal but am no expert; the grain size is the key to making this distinction of ore types and the grain size of Waltz's ore is right on the 'border' that differentiates between these two types. Epithermal gold deposits, the most common type found in Arizona, are often quite rich in gold but also pinch out at relatively shallow depths; this is due to the way they were formed. Meso- and Hypo thermal type deposits are formed at depth, not near the surface, and this generally results in a deposit that runs deep. Mesothermal veins are formed at 3000 feet depth. Most of the gold veins of Bradshaw, Weaver, Date Creek and other districts are of this type; a key feature that is common to most Mesothermal gold lodes is that they very often contain a high percentage of silver to gold ratio. We know from an assay done on Waltz's deathbed ore, that it contained roughly 1.5% silver and nearly 33% gold for a rather LOW silver to gold ratio; this is a common feature found in Hypothermal type ore deposits and is one reason why I call Waltz's ore Hypothermal. <I am just a prospector not a geologist of course, and will defer to the professionals on most things but respectfully disagree on calling Waltz's ore Mesothermal type.>

The fact that this Pit mine pinched out at a (relatively) shallow depth, points to it being an Epithermal type deposit. The silver sulfides seen on the ore dump are in keeping with Epithermal type deposits; the photo Joe has kindly shared with us has the appearance of being the colored quartz gangues you should expect to see in Epithermal type deposits (green, orange etc) not the white to colorless quartz usually seen for the Meso-and Hypothermal types. I mean no disrespect or insult but based on what I see, as interesting as the Pit mine is, and I have NO doubt that whomever worked that mine very likely made a very large profit from doing so, I have serious doubts that it is the lost mine of Jacob Waltz. I would rather accept that it IS, and perhaps we could see fewer people go missing and/or die in the Superstitions hunting for the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine, but in all honesty I can't say that Pit mine is the LDM.

Perhaps it is just my own inner wish not to see the famous mine found, or to cause the loss in tourism for the area businesses that is affecting my judgment; I am sure one of our members would say that is the case. What is in a name anyway - if that Pit mine were not the LDM, it didn't prevent the men who worked it from making a tidy sum did it? Fame only goes so far and whoever finds the LDM will be famous for a short period, may even get into the history books - but will soon be forgotten. Gold and silver however do last the test of time.

Thank you Joe for sharing the evidence and history, perhaps that Pit mine really is the infamous Lost Dutchman's Gold mine? It is one of the best theories I have seen for a candidate.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS just an observation here, but historically a surprisingly large number of excellent mines have been discovered by treasure hunters who were out searching for a lost mine or ledge, though most often what they found was not the mine they were looking for!

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"We don't know for a fact that Waltz's mine was in fact a chimney type deposit, that was surmised by other prospectors in his time but according to Waltz the vein crops out some distance from where he was mining it, which would not be in keeping with the form of most chimney type lodes."

Can you tell us who Waltz was supposed to have made that statement to? Thank you.

I have never said that the pit mine is the LDM. I have said that.......for many reasons, some unstated, that I believe it's the LDM. I have no problem with folks presenting arguments as to why they don't believe it is.

My guess is that the Joe Dering story is pure fiction. Feel the same way about the two soldiers.

See you next week,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OK you lousy coffee making, sheep herder, you are hired, if you bring Beth along as the cook.. meso hypo hmmmm

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"We don't know for a fact that Waltz's mine was in fact a chimney type deposit, that was surmised by other prospectors in his time but according to Waltz the vein crops out some distance from where he was mining it, which would not be in keeping with the form of most chimney type lodes."

Can you tell us who Waltz was supposed to have made that statement to? Thank you.

I have never said that the pit mine is the LDM. I have said that.......for many reasons, some unstated, that I believe it's the LDM. I have no problem with folks presenting arguments as to why they don't believe it is.

My guess is that the Joe Dering story is pure fiction. Feel the same way about the two soldiers.

See you next week,

Joe

Not off the top of my head. It was in a story of someone dismissing his mine as "nothing but a pocket" and he insisted otherwise. I think it is alluded to in the Holmes version as well; <one moment here I can check that> - here is Holmes version, for our readers:

Dick Holmes "Wolz, did you dig all the gold out, or is there some left?"
Waltz "There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash, I dug this cropping away and erased all sign of my digging.."

I don't know why Deering's story would have to be pure fiction; as several others have protested, we have some good sources that he did exist and had made a discovery - in fact John Chuning would then have to be put on the same footing as Deering if we dismiss Deering's story.

As for the two soldiers part - I am convinced there really was such a mine and two ex-soldiers, just not in the Superstitions.

OK you lousy coffee making, sheep herder, you are hired, if you bring Beth along as the cook.. meso hypo hmmmm

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ah, you are not fooling anyone here amigo - you know the different ore types probably better than I do! Shall we discuss ore body clusters in volcanic fields? I would gladly accept the position of apprentice BTW!
Roy

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Interesting you should mention Joe Deering. Have you ever looked at the Silver King Cemetery records?

They have Joe Deering as dying in 1882. (information from the Arizona Pioneer & Cemetery Research Project).

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Since Deering died in 1885, I presume the 1882 date is a clerical error.

See you soon,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

no its the twilight zone , the case of the doulb dieing Deering ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Dick Holmes "Wolz, did you dig all the gold out, or is there some left?"
Waltz "There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash, I dug this cropping away and erased all sign of my digging.."]

Lot's of fiction in that account. Much of it is obvious, some less so.

I have a good friend who knew Brownie very well. He tells me that Holmes denied writing that manuscript right up to the time of his death. That's good enough for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

[Dick Holmes "Wolz, did you dig all the gold out, or is there some left?"
Waltz "There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash, I dug this cropping away and erased all sign of my digging.."]

Lot's of fiction in that account. Much of it is obvious, some less so.

I have a good friend who knew Brownie very well. He tells me that Holmes denied writing that manuscript right up to the time of his death. That's good enough for me.

Take care,

Joe

"There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash

"at lest that much is true ..."i would say 80 or 90 men with todays prices ..notice i did not add the last part of that ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

"There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash

"at lest that much is true ..."i would say 80 or 90 men with todays prices ..notice i did not add the last part of that ...

Well gold has been over $1300 per ounce lately, compared with $20.67 per ounce when Waltz made that statement, so it could be quite a bunch of millionaires! <I get roughly 26,000, if we only allow one million apiece>

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

[Dick Holmes "Wolz, did you dig all the gold out, or is there some left?"
Waltz "There is enough gold to make twenty men millionaires; the ore is this wide <holding his hands about two feet apart> and runs the mountain side about four hundred feet where it crops out in the bottom of a wash, I dug this cropping away and erased all sign of my digging.."]

Lot's of fiction in that account. Much of it is obvious, some less so.

I have a good friend who knew Brownie very well. He tells me that Holmes denied writing that manuscript right up to the time of his death. That's good enough for me.

Well Dr Glover turned up hints that Brownie actually did compose that account, but for reasons known only to himself chose to deny it. I am well aware of some of the falsehoods in it, but not convinced that it is 100% fiction. Holmes was not the only source for Waltz saying his mine was no pocket lode. Of course Milton Rose also said that LDM was nothing but a shallow rich pocket, and that he found it and mined out all the gold up near Four Peaks. If that ore we commonly attribute to Waltz did not come from his mine, then all bets are off. Can you present a case to show that the ore which is claimed to have come from Waltz did not come from him? Thank you in advance,
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning my apprentice. Milton Rose was his own worst enemy. He always managed to destroy the very things that could prove his stories.

This from Tayopa on to other lost mines and treasures. For one I can guarantee that he never set foot on the actual Tayopa.

While his stories are fun reading, I would never use them / him as a source of information.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe,

What do you make of the Gustavus Cox "map" of the Roger's Canyon area with all the mine claims there - with the Silver Chief being roughly where this "pit mine" is located?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I don't really think much of that map. Compared to the reality of the topography, I would say it's not close to being an accurate map. I have a copy of the entire map, showing other districts as well, and will bring it to the Rendezvous.

What do you think of it. When you made your trip to the top of the ridge, did what you were looking at below match the map?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I hadn't seen that map before I sat up on the ridge, so I can't give a very accurate interpretation of it right now. I have some photos I can look at tonight and compare them to the map though.

The key to that map in my mind is finding the "on site" locations of the other mining claims and then fitting the Silver Chief amongst them to see where it actually lies.

I think in the last couple years a few people have tried to do that, but I'm not sure I've seen the results from their exploring. I don't recall if Jesse or Jack San Felice address the locations of the other claims and whether they've been re-discovered or not in their books - my memory is just getting so bad for some things .

Paul

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

It is interesting that both men only advanced the theory that the "Silver Chief" might be the LDM. They did not discuss the other mines on the map, as I recall. Don't have time to look right now.

The "Sil. Chief" on Cox's map is unusual, considering the other notations for the rest of the claims on the map. Could it have been.....massaged? I haven't seen the original map.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

It is interesting that both men only advanced the theory that the "Silver Chief" might be the LDM. They did not discuss the other mines on the map, as I recall. Don't have time to look right now.

The "Sil. Chief" on Cox's map is unusual, considering the other notations for the rest of the claims on the map. Could it have been.....massaged? I haven't seen the original map.

Take care,

Joe

I suppose it's always possible, but I believe Jack Carlson may be the one who found the original map in the Pinal County archives somewhere (I could be wrong about that though), and I have no reason to believe that it wasn't like that when he found it. In fact, I think I recall seeing it in his and Elizabeth's hiking guide book to the Eastern Superstitions as well.

Sounds like another good discussion point for the Rendezvous.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

"The key to that map in my mind is finding the "on site" locations of the other mining claims and then fitting the Silver Chief amongst them to see where it actually lies.

I think in the last couple years a few people have tried to do that, but I'm not sure I've seen the results from their exploring. I don't recall if Jesse or Jack San Felice address the locations of the other claims and whether they've been re-discovered or not in their books".

As I have said before, I believe Dave has been to the other claims, including the real Silver Chief. If I remember that conversation correctly, I believe he will have pictures, and exact locations marked on a topographic program. I have never set foot in that area, so I am no authority.

If neither of the Jack's write, specifically, about the other mines in the area, that raises a flag for me. Both men, as well as Jesse Feldman devoted a lot of ink to the pit mine/"Silver Chief". Do you find that somewhat interesting?

I will ask Jack where he got his copy of the Cox map.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Jack Carlson just called me and told me he would be at the Rendezvous. I asked about his locating any other mines in the area. He said they thought they had found the "Snap" and "World Beater". Both had a flat area that was obviously "disturbed", but no wood debris or signs of mining.

He also mentioned that he had found a little silver, and someone with him had found a little gold at the pit mine.

He had tried to get a copy of the map from The AZ Historical Society, but they would not allow it to be copied. The other place that had the map was U of A.
They let him make a full size copy. I trust Jack completely, so the map is good as far as I'm concerned.

Does it match the location of the pit mine, is my only question. Could you find the pit mine by using that map alone? I don't think so, but someone else will have to test that theory. Dave already has, and his conclusion was the same as mine. The Silver Chief is a couple of miles northwest of the pit mine.

Also from Jack in an email I just received:

"I forgot to mention that I added a credit to the copy of the map---it
gives the call number in the U of A Special Collections."

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

As it relates to Pinto Creek, I am reminded of this:

"I believe that also, but I'm pretty certain our views aren't the same. If I understand you correctly, your feeling is that Reed likely had never been to Waltz's mine and had no special knowledge of the location at all. While I have no proof whatsoever, I tend to think he DID have information specific to either Waltz's mine or one of his caches."

Remember who wrote that?

Take care,

Joe