Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Hi John

Let’s first take a look at John.

He manage to point out that I “disparage Springfield “.

But our good John didn’t manage to point out that Springfield fired the first disparaging shot. Yes our good john managed not to mention that.

Let’s take another look at our good John. He but of course failed to see the heart of my post about Springfield. But of course our good John doesn’t mention that.

People see what they want to see, and think what they want to think, and know what they want to know BECAUSE THEY HAVE CLOSED MINDS INSTEAD OF HAVING AN OPEN MIND.

Please forgive me for yelling at you good John.

Let’s take another look at our good John. Funny isn’t it how he failed to mention I offered Springfield enlightenment by way of a more detailed map ……… if he would keep an open mind …….. By seeing the connecting dot.

And our good John comes to Springfield’s aid with his own CLOSED MIND! Meaning, instead of telling everyone here both sides of the story about the Zeno narrative he only tells ONE SIDE. But of course because our good John has a closed mind.

Anyone who has an open mind, instead of a closed one, would know equally the links to the other side of the Zeno story, just as he knows the links supporting his closed mind.

What is “pure fiction” here is not your request for links, but your pretending as though you would for one second consider anything other than what you have already stated can be the only truth concerning the Zeno story.

The Zeno story is in fact, contrary to what our good John would have everyone believe, hotly contested by scholars on both sides of the issue. Funny our good John failed to mention this.

I’ve said repeatedly that “my faith” as you put it good John is in the gold - platinum deposit and Walter Gassler report. I’ve said repeatedly that others ….. Even named them twice …… are interested in the Deity stone (aka the German holy grail).

Others posting here have an interest in the holy stones, such as BB who claims a similar experience.

Forgive me John if I’ve offended you, but your fired the first shot. I’ve learned in life that only one thing is certain besides death and taxes: a persons with closed minds can not be convinced of anything they do not already hold to be true.

If you have an open mind you will find the info without my assistance.

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

me and my brother were on that expedition and its not just me saying that this happend .. we both knew things were not right when we were at the site and the effects took hours to ware off .. i thing there is someing odd about the .. site .. i know there is !

you tell me what can blank a memmory card when its in the camera .. if you have a idea .. lets here it .. i have took picture with good cameras from 1978 till now ,the camera is setting right here it has never done this anywhere else but at the site .. before of after ?

can you explain it ? it would not matter if i had not scan the pictures and knew they were on the card ..i can not explain how this happend ..IMHO it has to be maginetic effects of some kind ..

the effects on humans is well documented as well .. but it was more then that .. toxic is as good as any other word in this case .. Crawford's discription was very close IMHO ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

DE

you seem to place great store in seeing the dots that i would guess most on here can't see either, and disparage springfield because he can't,

ignoring the stones which i know nothing about, you also seem to place great faith in the Sinclair Zeno voyage, the story had been around for 500 years before Sinclair was even bought into it, and IHMO is itself nothing more than fiction, Zeno did make a voyage to the south of England and to Brittany,
but anyone who knows the geography of Scotland and this area will realise that the rest of the story is pure fiction,
he makes up islands that don't exist not one but quite a few and those that do exist in the wrong place,
battles that never took place, none of which are recorded, and most are at least as far back as the normans,

do you think there is no recorded history on this side of the pond, dozens of people have studied the map you refer to and the book, its so far out it's regarded as in the realms of fiction,

you may need to copy this in your browser as it wont transfer as a link, this is just one of dozens of articles that can be found about the Templar/Sinclair/Zeno connection,
also there are dozens if not hundreds of books on the templers, written by historians and not conspiracy theorists,
also there is nothing in the Sinclair family history that indicates that he took such a voyage, if you have information to the contrary then please post it, or say where,

http://www.alastairhamilton.com/sinclair.htm

John

John,

I looked into the Zeno story years ago. IMHO, your conclusions are correct.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

..... I suppose it would be too much trouble to ask Springfield to look for obvious “indirect” connections since nobody lives 500 years.

I think it is that Springfield can’t see the connecting dots, because he doesn’t want to see them.

Ya know what they say ….. People see what they want to see, and think what they want to think, and know what they want to know. Hummmm ……. Sounds like a description of Springfield. As a matter of fact a perfect description of Springfield --- no Blue Sky speculation about it.

I’m counting on your having read the info posted by Calvin Treewood and Rick Gwynne at the Knights Templar vault.
http://www.knightstemplarvault.com/comments.php?y=08&m=01&entry=entry080125-094639
I’m also counting on your having read the article by Anne Rue.

I’m also counting on your having read the info about the “legend of Untersberg mountain” at this link. I know it’s a long story but the connecting dot your looking for is in the section underneath the picture of Undersberg mountain, where it says “What was the legend of Undersberg mountain”.
http://berghof.greyfalcon.us/Wolf at the door.htm

If you can discern the one connecting dot found here, then I’ll show you a more detailed map.

You can trash me if you need to, but my questions remain unanswered. It isn't my task to piece together a plausible connection between the Sinclair voyage and Waltz. You brought up the idea - it's on you, babe. Sorry, I not only can't connect your dots, but I'm not even sure what dots you're pushing. I'll prompt you to get you started: who was in possession of the 'holy stones' between ca 1400 ad and ca 1900 ad? What circumstances qualified Waltz to come into possession of the stones? Why was Arizona considered a more secure location for the stones than Nova Scotia, or Greenland or Scotland, for that matter? Why not Utah? After all, there's a whole bunch of folks up there that swear the ark of the covenant is hidden in Mormanland - why not consolidate the great christian relics?

I've looked at all the weblinks. Sorry to be skeptical - you're not yet helping to make the Crawford material palatable.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Springfield

Sorry I trashed ya.

You didn’t understand what I said so let me re phrase it.

There is NO “plausible connection between the Sinclair voyage and Waltz“ (using your words there) because people do not live 500 years.

If was guessing you were not too concerned with the Sinclair - Zeno expedition but were more concerned with other things. So I was prompting you to consider the legend of Undersberg mountain.

There are three things in your post to address. Let’s take one-at-a-time.

Let’s start of all places with the Dutchman.

Where was the Dutchman from?

He was from SOUTHERN Germany.

Where was the German Templar told to start secret scientific sects?

In Northern Italy, in Austria, and in SOUTHERN Germany.

Where is the Undersberg mountain?

It’s in SOUTHERN Germany.

Where did Wolfram Von Eschenbach live?

He lived in SOUTHERN Germany.

What did Eschenbach write about?

The German Holy Stones.

Who did Eschenbach say was in possession of the Germman holy stones?

The German Templars.

And (again) where was it those German Templars started one of the secret scientific sects?

In SOUTHERN Germany.

HOLY CRAP Batman were those dots? And were those dots connected?

How old was the Dutchman when he came to the USA?

He was in his twenties.

And since he grew up in SOUTHERN Germany, don’t you think it is at least “plausible” he knew the German holy stones story. After all he is a known treasure hunter, he is German, he grew up in SOUTHERN Germany!!

HOLY CRAP Batman, there does seem to be dots and they do seem to be connected!

What is part of the German holy stone legend?

That high spiritualists can head THUNDERING, or booming, voices emanating from the German holy stones.

What do you suppose the Dutchman may have thought to himself when he heard the story about a THUNDER ground in the Superstitions.

Ya think it’s “plausible” he thought to himself I’ve heard that story before back in Germany, maybe I should check this out.

HOLY CRAP Batman! There are dots that connect here!

Now for the big surprise!!

Anne C. Rue’s article was partly about connecting these very dots.

Hummmmmm ……..

Ok, now for number 2. Why would Arizona be considered more secure?

You mean besides the fact that it gets up to 160 degrees in those canyons during the summer, and its not just a mountainous place but also a desert. You mean besides those things?

I don’t think they thought of Arizona being more secure then say Nova Scotia, or Greenland or Scotland. I don’t think they thought that way at all. I think they were just migrating westward and came across what is now called Arizona. How do we know they left the stones there ….. We don’t even know that …… maybe the Indians killed them and just left the stones where the dropped.

I thought Anne Rue did a really great job of pointing out and connecting the dots ……… Humm …..

Ok, now for number 3. What part of what I just said is “Crawford material?” Why that would be nothing.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Ok, maybe I was a little bit testy. I’ll place nice if you will.
I'm sorry I called you Batman. :P

 

[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

....Let’s start of all places with the Dutchman.

Where was the Dutchman from?

He was from SOUTHERN Germany.

Where was the German Templar told to start secret scientific sects?

In Northern Italy, in Austria, and in SOUTHERN Germany.

Where is the Undersberg mountain?

It’s in SOUTHERN Germany.

Where did Wolfram Von Eschenbach live?

He lived in SOUTHERN Germany.

What did Eschenbach write about?

The German Holy Stones.

Who did Eschenbach say was in possession of the Germman holy stones?

The German Templars.

And (again) where was it those German Templars started one of the secret scientific sects?

In SOUTHERN Germany.

HOLY CRAP Batman were those dots? And were those dots connected?....

OK. I live in New Mexico. Where is Roswell? In New Mexico. Does that mean somebody can 'connect the dots' and argue that I've got an alien body hidden in my shed?

If you want to do detective work, before trying to flesh out the 'holy stones' you might try to ferret out the motivation underlying Holy Stones Inc. and its nine members. Isn't the purpose of a corporation to make money for the shareholders?

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Ah ....... NO! ....... I'm not going to show the more detail map ....... they didn't want to play nice ....... thou springfield upset me I still gave him the chance to see the more detailed map by simply having an open mind. He chose not to. Those dots are clearly visible and clearly connected for anyone with an open mind.

Hummmm ....... I'm the only one here who took note of his comment about this all being "Crawford material!" You really expect to believe I'm the only one who noticed that ................ really ....... do you really?

Not only did he display his closed mind for all to see he also expressed a prejudice ..... perhaps why he has a closed mind.

And ...... ah ...... I already said I was sorry for getting upset ........ No I'm not going to show the more detailed map ....... a-deals-a-deal ..... he's the one who rejected it.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

OK, let's cut to the chase. You've provided all sorts of woo woo spurious material here (I actually found the Delmar Knight stuff quite interesting). I for one would enjoy reading the mysterious 14-page report, "An official position of Holy Stones Incorporated (HIS)". How about it?

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

I pointed out how a known treasure hunter grew up in the exact area of a know treasure legend, so it is plausible that the treasure hunter knew the treasure legend, and when the known treasure hunter heard a story that matched the treasure legend (which he knew) it is plausible he investigated it.

You on the other hand jump from a city in the same state as an alien crash to an alien in a shed.

Do you really think people reading these post take that seriously.

To the contrary. The people reading these post can easily see you just proved my point.

“ … persons with closed minds can not be convinced of anything they do not already hold to be true.”

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Hummm ...... the story of the German holy stones started way back in 1220 ...... and crawford didn't enter into the story until some time in the 1970s ..... and he only contributed one document that I know of. Let me think ...... isn't that about a difference of 750 years? So the story was going on for 750 years before Crawford came in to it ..... and somehow this is all "Crawford material!"

I read Darlen Rushton's book about all of Crawford's conman activities .... one piled on top of another ....... and I'm not sure you read the book ........ but I don't discredit a story that's been around for over 750 years just because a conman came into it for a very short time at the tail end.

Talk about a prejudice!

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

This is not the more detailed map I was going to show you. But there is something important about this map. I copied it from an atlas at the library.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Note how the modern day atlas map matches the 1566 Zaltire map.

This is important.

Contrary to what some believe I place NO importance on the Sinclair - Zeno expedition.

Instead, I would have gone with the 1566 Zaltire expedition. Why Holy Stones Inc. went with the Sinclair - Zeno expedition is some what of a mystery to me.

Seems rather obvious to me A PERSON WITH AN OPEN MIND that there has to be a reason why the 1566 map matches the modern day map concerning the area of what is now Arizona ........... like maybe they did a little land exploring ..... ya think!

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Hummm ......... you think the fact that the 1566 map matches the modern day map in the area of Arizona is ........ how did you say it ....... woo woo spurious material.

You can keep digging the hole deeper if you like, I'll not stop you.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

..... I place NO importance on the Sinclair - Zeno expedition.

Instead, I would have gone with the 1566 Zaltire expedition. Why Holy Stones Inc. went with the Sinclair - Zeno expedition is some what of a mystery to me. .....

Why? Probably because there is a definite possibility that the Sinclair voyage of 1398 actually occured, and it's best to attach your outrageous speculations to known or closely suspected actual events - it gives your story 'credibility'.

There was no Zaltiere expedition in 1566. There is a map of that name, yes, but no expedition. Cartographers throughout history were generally not explorers but created/copied their maps from earlier maps and added information as it became available. The fact that certain geographical features in the American southwest showed up on maps of the period, including Zaltiere's, is not news. The deVaca stragglers' trek and the deNiza/Estevanico expedition both occured in the 1530's, providing some ideas of what was to be found by later explorers. More to the point, Coronado and his minions and contemporaries explored a great deal of the area in 1540-1542, not to mention many other Spanish forays along the northern frontier during the same times. Some truth-stretchers claim some of Coronado's men reached the Superstition range at the time, even though I don't personally believe it. The Zaltiere map is a non-issue, IMO.

Tell you what, DE, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I don't feel like spending energy debating a subject I don't particularly care about. The best of luck to you - I hope you push on to a point you're satisfied with.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

I’m sorry …… I’ve been misspelling it …… Zaltieri …… is how I should be spelling it.

The 1566 Zaltieri map has received notoriety because of its representation of the entire continent of North America ---- not just a cost line, or area near the cost.

The map is thought to be the first giving such representation of the entire continent of North America.

If this is in fact true the Springfield’s statement of Cartographers
“created/copied their maps from earlier maps and added information as it became available” --- which they indeed did --- does not apply to the 1566 Zaltieri map as it is supposed to be the first giving such representation.

Since in Springfield’s own words “Some truth-stretchers claim some of Coronado's men reached the Superstition range at the time, even though I don't personally believe it” Springfield himself clearly says he doesn’t believe they made it to the Superstitions. So Coronado expeditions can not account for the “representations” on the 1566 Zaltieri map.

The other two groups he references could not have supplied details to an earlier map as the 1566 Zaltieri map is supposed to be the first. In addition Springfield does not state any know connection between Zaltieri and “The deVaca stragglers' trek and the deNiza/Estevanico expedition”. Without such a connection he can not rightfully claim they supplied Zaltieri any information at all.

Of course, being closed minded he claims “The Zaltiere map is a non-issue, IMO.” When in fact nothing he stated proves this to be the case.

Again, Springfield proves my point.

“ … persons with closed minds can not be convinced of anything they do not already hold to be true.”

Zaltiere got his information to make the map from someone, if not himself. So someone went on expedition, and until we know exactly who, then I stuck referring to the expedition as the Zaltiere expedition.

I tried to get Springfield to stop digging his hole, but he wouldn’t. The 1566 Zaltieri map is very much an issue, and whether it was a Zaltiere expedition, or an expedition by an as yet un-named person who gave the information to Zaltiere, it is the expedition I would have picked instead of the Sinclair - Zeno expedition.

The only “outrageous speculations” are those made by Springfield in his silly attempt to make the 1566 Zaltieri map a non-issue.

I did tell Springfield to stop digging his hole but he decided to once again prove “ … persons with closed minds can not be convinced of anything they do not already hold to be true.”

 

[Springfield]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

......The 1566 Zaltieri map has received notoriety because of its representation of the entire continent of North America ---- not just a cost line, or area near the cost.

The map is thought to be the first giving such representation of the entire continent of North America......

Even though we can't read most of the place names on the low-resolution Zaltieri map provided, it's clear that much of the information is Mexico-based in origin: many town names in Mexico and the usual 'Civola, Quivera, etc. northern frontier guesses based on Mexican Indian legends obtained by the Conquistadors. The NA continent is represented, yes, but it's typically shown for a 16th century chart - terribly inaccurate and out of scale with a number of 'terra incognito' labels. There were a number of these maps available in those days.

Now, if I were to have based a similar conspiracy theory on an old map, I would have chosen the Hadji Ahmed world map from 1559. There are no interior details on this map, but it shows the entire northern hemisphere with astounding accuracy, especially North America. This is remarkable because the map appears about 200 years before a reliable method of determining longitude would allow for such accuracy. That's an anomally that will get peoples' attention.

You certainly are persistant with whatever you're trying to do here, but it's time to lose the Zaltieri map hook - it doesn't strengthen your arguement, at least in my mind.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

If Springfield can’t convince me or people reading these post to drop the 1566 Zaltieri map then his particular argument falls short of the mark.

Springfield’s new rant against using the 1566 Zaltieri map is just as silly as his first one.

Springfield says “The NA continent is represented, yes, but it's typically shown for a 16th century chart - terribly inaccurate and out of scale with a number of 'terra incognito' labels. There were a number of these maps available in those days. ”

Hummmmm …….. Since the 1566 Zaltieri map is considered to be the first showing the “representations” then it logically follows that the charts Springfield speaks of were based on the 1566 Zaltieri map NOT the other way around.

Besides … Springfield is arguing a side point ….. Holy Stones Inc. for whatever reasons picked the Sinclair - Zeno expedition.

By the way Mr. Closed Mind you can find a high resolution copy of the 1566 Zaltieri map on the internet. It’s no big surprise you didn’t do that on your own ….. After all “ … persons with closed minds can not be convinced of anything they do not already hold to be true.”

There is absolutely no reason to lose the 1566 Zaltieri map. And I will not. It is far more plausible then the Sinclair - Zeno expedition, and Springfield hasn’t given one credible reason to lose the 1566 Zaltieri map.

Here is what Springfield said
“Tell you what, DE, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I don't feel like spending energy debating a subject I don't particularly care about. The best of luck to you - I hope you push on to a point you're satisfied with. ”

Clearly he’d rather keep digging that hole he’s in.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

I'm not going to let Springfield stop this topic from moving forward with silly rants against the the 1566 Zaltieri map.

This means I'm not going to respond to any more of his silly rants against the 1566 Zaltieri map, I'm going to ignore them as they are deliberately intended to stop this topic from moving forward.

So even though you wont move on as you said you would, I'm moving forward.

 

[daringEagle]

Re: Dutchman & government conspiracy Request

Moving forward ..........

At this website I gave a link to before did anyone notice something interesting related to Holy Stones Inc.
http://berghof.greyfalcon.us/Wolf at the door.htm
Here’s what it says.
“It is the German tradition that the Templars were ordered to form a secret scientific sect in southern Germany, Austria and northern Italy to be known as "Die Herren vom Schwarzen Stein" - The Lords of the Black Stone”
It is interesting that all nine original members of Holy Stones Inc. received black cross necklaces ….. Are they supposed to be lords of the black stone?
Also at another website a link was given to
http://www.knightstemplarvault.com/comments.php?y=08&m=01&entry=entry080125-094639
It says “Crawford found a bar which he sometimes described as a black bar, and sometimes described as a black and purple bar.”
Is this the “Black Stone” of which there are lords?