Holmes "Missing" directions

[Dirty Dutchman]

Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hello All,

I am new to forums as well as to researching the Dutchman Mine. I have been reading on The Lost Dutchman Mine for about two months and my studies have included the "Bible" by Corbin and two books by T.E. Glover. I have also taken a few trips horseback to get more familiar with the mountains. They are magnificent as well as treacherous.

My question is, has anyone ever revealed the "missing clues" that Brownie Holmes left out of "The Manuscript"? The clues that would lead from the "hidden camp" to the actual mine. From what i have read, they stop after finding the camp, and Brownie obviously left out the remaining clues on purpose, in my opinion.

I believe i have read the clues that were "left out" by Brownie, mostly on the internet. It was easy to dismiss a lot of the clues at first, thinking that most of them might have been "made up" by other people. But as I read the "Holmes Manuscript" over and over, some of the clues taken from the internet seemed to have been written in the same fashion or, wording, as the Manuscript. It's kind of like reading your favorite author, and recognizing their "writing style".

In my opinion, other clues I have gotten from the internet, seem to come from the Petrasch side for the same reasons. I believe there were more clues given to Hermann than i read in the "Bible", but disreguarded by Hermann because Julia and Rhiney didnt "say the same thing".

Being new to this, i was just wondering if there is a source or book that anyone knows of that reveals the "missing clues"? I'm sure if there is not, it's because they are "family secrets" that will never be revealed.

Thanks in advance,
Travis

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

it would not do you any good to get those dirrections .

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

In your opinion, right BlindBowman?

So, is that a yes, or a no about them being "knowingly published" by someone?

NO , i do not believe they were published ...

if your looking for something of that nature your best preson to ask is JOE ? catusjumper... he would know ....

i never needed the data .. still dont ..lol

good luck and i hope you enjoy the legends as much as we have ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

I don't know anything about the "missing clues". If you are going by Thomas Glover's account, there is one piece of information from the original manuscript that might be considered important. It's where Brownie mentions that he believes he found the "three tanks" and where they are located. Thomas left that out of his book.

I have been told by someone who knew Brownie very well, that he denied writing that manuscript right up to the time of his death. It's interesting to speculate if he was or was not the author.

I believe Clay Worst would be the man who could answer your questions, assuming he would want to.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB you posted -->walk with me and i will take you to the mine ...and show you legends can be real ..

***************
Nope, sorry, no will do BB , I will 'not' take you to Tayopa - just yet. Caddo or Dirty Dutchamn ok.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB you posted -->walk with me and i will take you to the mine ...and show you legends can be real ..

***************
Nope, sorry, no will do BB , I will 'not' take you to Tayopa - just yet. Caddo or Dirty Dutchamn ok.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to live, not live to exist"

you could only take me to the 1/2 you know of .. sorry i have my own tayopa . and it comes with dirrections and the peralta stone book .. i do not need you to guide me RD .. my path has been given from above ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Thanks for the response Joe.

I do remember reading the part about the "three tanks" in the book, but you're correct, they never mention that Brownie may have found it. We have also found 3 "tanks", kind of staggard. It was quite by accident, as we took a route we probably shouldnt have on horseback. In my opinion, the mine is actually located a bit further away from them, but in the same canyon. Too many other things have matched up for me so far, and if they are the correct tanks, it just adds to the fire, so to speak.

As for Brownie denying it, I believe Glover says the Holmes family confirmed he took part in it, and even had a copy of it. I am not sure either way, but i believe there are too many pieces of knowledge and stories mentioned in it, for Brownie to not have been involved in the manuscript somehow.
Glover even had pictures that were given to him by the Holmes family to use for the book. (according to Glover)

I'm assuming Clay is on here to contact? I will send him a message tomorrow and see where it goes.

Thanks for the help,
Travis

Travis,

I don't know Mr. Worst all that well, but I have talked to him a few times. I doubt he looks in on this forum, but you never know.

I can think of a few reasons why the family would decide to "claim" the manuscript after Brownie's death......all of them start with $$$'s The thought that the manuscript might have some monetary value may never have entered their minds, so I could be wrong in that assessment.

I don't try to make any sense out of bb's posts anymore, in fact I keep him on "Ignore", and only see what he posts when other people, such as you, quote him.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Thanks for the response Joe.

I do remember reading the part about the "three tanks" in the book, but you're correct, they never mention that Brownie may have found it. We have also found 3 "tanks", kind of staggard. It was quite by accident, as we took a route we probably shouldnt have on horseback. In my opinion, the mine is actually located a bit further away from them, but in the same canyon. Too many other things have matched up for me so far, and if they are the correct tanks, it just adds to the fire, so to speak.

As for Brownie denying it, I believe Glover says the Holmes family confirmed he took part in it, and even had a copy of it. I am not sure either way, but i believe there are too many pieces of knowledge and stories mentioned in it, for Brownie to not have been involved in the manuscript somehow.
Glover even had pictures that were given to him by the Holmes family to use for the book. (according to Glover)

I'm assuming Clay is on here to contact? I will send him a message tomorrow and see where it goes.

Thanks for the help,
Travis

Travis,

I don't know Mr. Worst all that well, but I have talked to him a few times. I doubt he looks in on this forum, but you never know.

I can think of a few reasons why the family would decide to "claim" the manuscript after Brownie's death......all of them start with $$$'s The thought that the manuscript might have some monetary value may never have entered their minds, so I could be wrong in that assessment.

I don't try to make any sense out of bb's posts anymore, in fact I keep him on "Ignore", and only see what he posts when other people, such as you, quote him.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

threw the blindness of ingorence wisdom shines threw ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

"It is my opinion, that Waltz became "frustrated" with Thomas and Petrasch, for whatever reason, and figured Dick was enough of an "outdoorsman" to find the mine. I do not believe he gave him false directions. There would be no point that i can see. If he was confessing to murders to clear his mind, why lie about the mine? I feel if you match up the Petrasch and Holmes clues, they lead to the same spot, in my opinion. Waltz gave Thomas and Petrasch "more" clues, but was with them longer while he was sick. I believe he gave Holmes a "quicker" version of them, because he was dying. I just believe Dick started out in the wrong area, for whatever reason."
__________________________________________________

Not many knowledgeable Dutch Hunters, that I know, believe that Waltz murdered all those people, and I know quite a few. On the other hand, bb has complete faith in those stories, so there must be something to them.

As for clues.......I have always believed that the farther removed from those closest to the events you get, the less accurate the information. I am talking about people like Julia and Rhiney as well as Bark and by extension Ely. Those who came later, with their "new" clues, fall under the "Hell I Was There" syndrome for me.

Some authors, in particular Dr. Glover, have pieced together the best information available to date. That is not to say they have completely factual books.

Helen Corbin, who I have great respect for, put tremendous faith in a source that was less than truthful, as did I and many others. That has muddied
up the LDM waters for many years now, and will continue to lead people down false trails for many more years to come.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

Does Mr. Kollenborn know him? I have spoken with Tom a few times through emails. I'm not sure if he would give out contact information if he had it, but it might be worth a shot.

thanks,
Travis

Travis,

Tom has known Mr. Worst for many, many years. I can't speak for him, but I doubt he would ever give out any personal information about Clay Worst. In any case, I believe you would be wasting your time trying to get any "clues" that were not public knowledge out of Mr. Worst.

As I understand it, one of his more recent "partners" had a serious falling-out with him because he wanted information that Clay would not give him. I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told a gun was drawn. Knowing the personality of that "partner", that seems possible.

As you can see, the Dutch Hunting Community can be a bit of a minefield. Man's got to be very careful who he partner's up with.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

sorry my concluession that Waltz confessed the truth to dick holmes about killing 7 people has nothing to do with any writeing of any book what so ever .. its based on the true location of the mine and the peralta camp vs the account told by Waltz to dick holmes ....

so even if the account had been changed in some details .. the main facts remain those told by waltz to dick holmes ..

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

no problems here . my concluessions were based on a few very clear factors that detail the account and how they fit the sites and the facts are clear .. Waltz was telling dick holmes the truth..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB,

Dont be sorry, i wasnt questioning your conclusion. I dont think? I too believe Waltz gave a "confession" to Holmes the night of his death, I just can't be sure, because i wasnt there, nor do I have "proof" like you say you have. But, I have been able to follow what directions i have, to a location that, so far, has matched up.

I believe Waltz did kill those people. I have my own opinion about why, as i'm sure others do as well.

thanks,
Travis

Travis,

There are good reasons why the clues from both camps seem to match, and you can find a place....or places, where the topography also matches.

Both accounts were written well after the facts. Before they came to print, the stories were being circulated as well. Holmes was following Julia and her helpers everywhere they went, hoping they would lead him to the mine. After all, according to Brownie, his dad followed Waltz. It makes sense that he would follow the people who were closest to him.

If there is any truth in Brownie's manuscript, it came from hanging onto Julia's skirts....and keeping his ears open. Most of it is pure fiction, and that has been proven by serious research. In time, I believe you will come to the same conclusion. On the other hand, I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.

Right now you are drowning in a sea of false stories, including some of those in my friend, Thomas' book. He passed them along in good faith, but some are pure fiction. It's all about sources and what you are doing.......wearing down good boot leather. I suggest "Danners".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

I would suggest you go back and reread Dr. Glover's "Part 2: The Holmes Manuscript". Pay particular attention to the opinion (***) notes, as opposed to the direct quotes from the manuscript.

It's very true that many of my opinions are based on conversations with old timers and those who have had the time and ability to do more extensive research than I. The LDM has always been a hobby for me, rather than an avocation. I never let that hobby get in the way of my life or crowd my family away from first place in my heart.

I have been at this going on 53 years now. My own research has pretty much covered every legend of the Superstitions, as well as others around the country, Mexico and (to a lesser extent) South America. It includes researching the Conquistadors, especially Juan de Grijalva (1518), who may have hidden a large treasure in Mexico, withholding it from the King of Spain.

The Grijalva name pop's up again, tied to the LDM legend, in 1773. Juan Joseph de Grijalba was a neighbor of Blas Peralta and a good friend of the Moreno family who had ties to the Peralta family through marriage. In 1884, Selso Grijalba was said to have killed Pedro Ortega outside of Waltz's home.......with Waltz's shotgun which had been hanging on a wall inside the home. After the killing, it is claimed that Selso returned the gun to it's normal place inside the dwellling.

The Ortega killing was said to have taken place around two months after Waltz returned to Phoenix after covering his mine.

You might also want to take a look at the recent activities of Raul Grijalva.......

In all the years since Waltz's death, no one has ever found his mine using any of the "clues" that seem prolific. Many have claimed to have found it, but.....no LDM gold to test. Two members of my family, my mother's uncle, and my dad's brother were sure they had found it. Both men had legal claims they worked in the mountains. At the time they didn't even know each other. What are the odds?

I didn't know Nike even made good hiking boots. Are you saying you're wearing "sneakers"?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Morning Joe: I used sneakers exclusively in the tropical jungles. Leather just doesn't hold up. Don't sell them short. Also the later models do just fine in rock work.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Don Jose,

The Superstitions are not the "tropical jungle". Sneakers work fine for walking on the trails, or pounding around in camp. All that will work until your path leads you off the trails and you start climbing in the really rough areas of the mountains.

When you seriously get into searching the mountains for the treasure de jour, you will find yourself in large, almost, impassable fields of catclaw. In many cases, rather than work your way around them, which may entail steep ravines or straight up walls, you may have to get down on your hands and knees and crawl through the mess.

The Superstitions have many types of low growing cactus, the worst of which are the Cholla. They can be found in huge.....gardens, or in unlikely little clumps, often where you least expect them. In addition to that, there are many, many very sharp rocks to deal with. A pair of boots made in Japan or Taiwan will be lucky to last one season. Sneakers will expose your feet and ankles to the danger of severe damage.

I have often pulled cholla out of my boots with the spines never reaching the skin. I can guarantee that will not be your experience with sneakers.

If you are going off the trail in the Superstitions, invest in a good pair of American made boots.....like Danner's. Many people here respect your advise and experience. Please don't hint that sneakers might be fine for exploring the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Ashton Page]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hi Travis,

My opinion would be to understand the motive behind the Holmes Manuscript – it was to entice people to look for the rock house which Brownie could never find. Once someone found the rock house, that person was then supposed to leave the area (come back out of the canyon) and then contact Brownie, who would personally lead them to the mine.

With that in mind, reading Brownie’s instructions – up the ridge, come off the ridge, into the canyon, find the house – now immediately come back out of the canyon and……….. well, contact Brownie. (Yes, that is paraphrased – but it is the essence.) So what’s wrong with this picture?

Why would you go into the canyon to just to come back out of the canyon? What - to make sure that you were in the correct canyon? Wouldn’t you already know that from being up on the ridge? Wouldn’t you already know you’re in the proper canyon because you have already seen the rock that looks like a man?

Read The Holmes Mss. (Glover’s version) page 88. Holmes Senior talking to his son “And remember son, don’t be too hasty and, if you do locate the ROCK HOUSE, do not look for the mine, don’t even attempt PACING IT OFF as I have described to you, but return to Phoenix immediately so we can secure the assistance of the authorities to protect us and then we’ll go back and ..….. yada, yada.”
Get it? Holmes senior told Brownie that the mine was paced off from the rock house. There’s your clue. In my opinion, you do NOT come back out of the canyon.

Now, Brownie wants to be there when the mine is located to share in the glory – as he tells us in his manuscript (assuming he even wrote it in the first place). And if the mine is paced off from the rock house in the canyon, then Brownie doesn’t want you looking around in the canyon because you just might stumble upon the mine – without him being there. Hence the instructions “go into the canyon and then come out of the canyon”.

Now, this is just all my own personal opinion and I am not going to debate whether it is right or wrong. We’re all adults here, let everyone decide for themselves.

I have never met Clay Worst and I know little about him. But it only follows reason that scores of people have pestered him over the years to give out “the missing directions.” That’s just a guess on my part – so take if for what is worth. If I were in your shoes I would locate the rock house first – then you have something of value to introduce to Clay when you ask him for the missing information.

Good luck to you. I wish you well,

Ashton

 

[Springfield]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Don Jose,

The Superstitions are not the "tropical jungle". Sneakers work fine for walking on the trails, or pounding around in camp. All that will work until your path leads you off the trails and you start climbing in the really rough areas of the mountains.

...... If you are going off the trail in the Superstitions, invest in a good pair of American made boots.....like Danner's. Many people here respect your advise and experience. Please don't hint that sneakers might be fine for exploring the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

Agreed. All leather boots, minimum height - above the ankles. Stay away from the lightweight leather/cordura designer combos - way too vulnerable to cactus, agave, etc. Wool or synthetic socks only - you don't want your feet sweating in cotton socks.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Springfield,

While we're at it, we might as well throw in good quality heavy weight pants, tough long sleeve shirt and gloves.

Now if you are going to stick to your caballus, it's another story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Springfield,

While we're at it, we might as well throw in good quality heavy weight pants, tough long sleeve shirt and gloves.

Now if you are going to stick to your caballus, it's another story.

Take care,

Joe

No caballus for me, but plenty of Cabela's.