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Thread: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

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  1. #16
    um
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Hola amigo,
    I miss a lot, it is a fun part of the aging process! Forgetting things is another part, but that is a whole 'nother subject.

    Not trying to 'trip you up' on Weiser, just wanted to get your views on this straight. I did follow the discussion of Bark's notes, which were never intended for publication, but this is not the only source for the bloody shirt and frying pan with "bullet holes". The bullet holes may well have not been made by bullets for one thing, Apaches and other Indians were known to 'kill' objects by punching holes in them, quite possibly driving a pick into it. Indians could also be quite wasteful of ammunition, which was a point that Bark wrote he didn't buy; plus can we say with any certainty that the Indians did not have a mix of weapons? Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. Indians of the southwest had been obtaining firearms since the 1600's so I could not say that no firearm could have been involved.
    Roy

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  2. #17
    us
    Dec 2010
    Arizona
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Hola amigo,
    I miss a lot, it is a fun part of the aging process! Forgetting things is another part, but that is a whole 'nother subject.

    Not trying to 'trip you up' on Weiser, just wanted to get your views on this straight. I did follow the discussion of Bark's notes, which were never intended for publication, but this is not the only source for the bloody shirt and frying pan with "bullet holes". The bullet holes may well have not been made by bullets for one thing, Apaches and other Indians were known to 'kill' objects by punching holes in them, quite possibly driving a pick into it. Indians could also be quite wasteful of ammunition, which was a point that Bark wrote he didn't buy; plus can we say with any certainty that the Indians did not have a mix of weapons? Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. Indians of the southwest had been obtaining firearms since the 1600's so I could not say that no firearm could have been involved.
    Roy

    Oro,
    While i agree the Indians could have "poked" holes or used other weapons, this doesnt seem logical for someone that seems to believe the Weiser story. I assume since you talk about it that you do believe that story?

    When Weiser is telling his story, he says that he was keeping the Indians away using his rifle (while he was fleeing). They were afraid to get close. His horse was brought down finally by their arrows. No gun is mentioned. I believe they were afraid to get close because they didnt have guns. Again, just my opinion on what ive read.

    I probably dont know as much about Indian history as you do, but i cant find a "gun" story in the Weiser/Walker part (other than Weisers), so i'm going to stick with what i said earlier.

    Thanks,
    Travis
    (I'm out for the night!)

  3. #18
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Dirty Dutchman wrote
    Oro,
    While i agree the Indians could have "poked" holes or used other weapons, this doesnt seem logical for someone that seems to believe the Weiser story. I assume since you talk about it that you do believe that story?

    When Weiser is telling his story, he says that he was keeping the Indians away using his rifle (while he was fleeing). They were afraid to get close. His horse was brought down finally by their arrows. No gun is mentioned. I believe they were afraid to get close because they didnt have guns. Again, just my opinion on what ive read.

    I probably dont know as much about Indian history as you do, but i cant find a "gun" story in the Weiser/Walker part (other than Weisers), so i'm going to stick with what i said earlier.

    Thanks,
    Travis
    (I'm out for the night!)
    Yes I do accept the Weiser story, in large part because of my opinion of Dr Walker. As owner of the famous Vekol mine he had no need to go risk life and limb to hunt for it, plus his record of fighting the Apaches left a rather large target on his head for the rest of his life.

    I am not saying that there must have been firearms in the hands of the Indians attacking Weiser, only that any holes found in a frying pan may have been the result of a firearm or possibly just poked through. Perhaps the victorious warriors obtained a firearm from Weiser's own camp? We can't really say. Perhaps they recovered Weiser's own rifle, which he left at the water hole in his flight. I would not say that the Indians must have been Apaches for that matter, they may as easily have been Yavapais or even Navajos, depending on what year the attack happened.

    The bloody shirt and frying pan are not in the Weiser story we get from Dr Walker, which is only logical as he fled the scene of the attack. As for the reason why the Indians were hesitant to close the distance with Weiser, the fact that they stayed back really only indicates their respect for the rifle he was using, it doesn't tell us what sort of weapons they were using themselves. It may be an indicator of the ID of the Indians involved however, which may point to a different tribe than the Apaches as is usually assumed by most.

    Good night Travis, I look forward to your replies.
    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  4. #19
    us
    Nov 2010
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    I would like to add my 2 centovos to this thread, after Walz and Wiser shot the 2 working miners{Jacobs&Ludi},Walz turned and shot Wiser, this was at night,and Wiser was able to escape wounded, 2 Pima Indians found him the next day and took him to J.D.Walkers ranch. Before Wiser died he told his story to the rancher,and made him a map to the mine.The Walkers were getting rich from the Veckol mine and were not interested in following the lead.The imformation Wiser gave the rancher that it was a old Spanish worked mine. Barry Storm/thundergods Gold,1945,edition. I believe the holes in the pan were made by nails,to anchor the pan to a flat stone . Wiser was a carptender....

  5. #20
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    ..... Even at the famous Little Bighorn battle, some of the warriors had good rifles, some had nothing more than bows and arrows. ....
    Many had brand new repeating rifles, fresh out of the box. Wonder who provided them.

    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  6. #21
    us
    Dec 2010
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    [quote it doesn't tell us what sort of weapons they were using themselves.

    Good night Travis, I look forward to your replies.
    Oroblanco


    [/quote]

    Oro,

    This is what i have been trying to say and where i disagree with you. The Walker/Weiser story DOES tell you what kind of weapons the Indians were using.

    1)The horse was brought down by-ARROWS
    2)Weiser had two wounds to his shoulder by-ARROWS

    Now, you may be correct, the Indian could have gotten his gun and went back to his camp to "finish off" the Frying pan but, it doesnt make any sense to me.

    I guess arrows and frying pans really dont matter and we will probably never know for sure. Unless there is a frying pan out there with a few holes in it!

    Thanks,
    Travis

  7. #22
    us
    Sep 2009
    158
    84 times

    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Dirty Dutchman wrote
    Oro,
    While i agree the Indians could have "poked" holes or used other weapons, this doesnt seem logical for someone that seems to believe the Weiser story. I assume since you talk about it that you do believe that story?

    When Weiser is telling his story, he says that he was keeping the Indians away using his rifle (while he was fleeing). They were afraid to get close. His horse was brought down finally by their arrows. No gun is mentioned. I believe they were afraid to get close because they didnt have guns. Again, just my opinion on what ive read.

    I probably dont know as much about Indian history as you do, but i cant find a "gun" story in the Weiser/Walker part (other than Weisers), so i'm going to stick with what i said earlier.

    Thanks,
    Travis
    (I'm out for the night!)
    Yes I do accept the Weiser story, in large part because of my opinion of Dr Walker. As owner of the famous Vekol mine he had no need to go risk life and limb to hunt for it, plus his record of fighting the Apaches left a rather large target on his head for the rest of his life.

    I am not saying that there must have been firearms in the hands of the Indians attacking Weiser, only that any holes found in a frying pan may have been the result of a firearm or possibly just poked through. Perhaps the victorious warriors obtained a firearm from Weiser's own camp? We can't really say. Perhaps they recovered Weiser's own rifle, which he left at the water hole in his flight. I would not say that the Indians must have been Apaches for that matter, they may as easily have been Yavapais or even Navajos, depending on what year the attack happened.

    The bloody shirt and frying pan are not in the Weiser story we get from Dr Walker, which is only logical as he fled the scene of the attack. As for the reason why the Indians were hesitant to close the distance with Weiser, the fact that they stayed back really only indicates their respect for the rifle he was using, it doesn't tell us what sort of weapons they were using themselves. It may be an indicator of the ID of the Indians involved however, which may point to a different tribe than the Apaches as is usually assumed by most.

    Good night Travis, I look forward to your replies.
    Oroblanco

    Hello Oro
    I've been trying to find a direct connection between the Navajo's and the Superstition Mountains, and can't seem to find anything! Can you point me in the right direction again?
    Thank's Again!
    FEMF

  8. #23
    us
    Apr 2008
    Central California
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    So, Travis, your answer is just "the Mexicans"? Well, OK. For some reason I thought it sounded like you had a theory about Waltz, which would be based on his background, like previous occupations, or something like that, causing him to "think" differently. Shucks!

    But now I see what you meant. Sorry for the confusion.

    Anyway, here are some things to consider.

    The Mexican maps start, according to the John Mitchell Timeline, in 1846, about 25 years before Waltz supposedly went to Mexico, and became involved with the Peraltas and their story.

    I'm going to start with the first maps which are said to be directly related to the LDM, again using the timeline above, and the maps from The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine Website and the Apache Junction Public Library Website. Note that the filename numbering is the same on both sites, and I did leave those numbers in my images, so they can be right clicked, and "Save Picture As..." selected, to see them filename numbers.

    I pasted the orange dates onto the maps. They are only as accurate as the referenced timeline, and my presumption that they are the maps listed there.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Incidentally, when I mentioned Northeast quadrant, I meant within the "five miles from Weaver's Needle," rather than way back in there to the East.

    These were supposedly all made early-on, when Waltz was still alive, by people who were "in the know." Do they all indicate the same area? And if so, and they were fakes, why would all of them fake to the same area?

    An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.

  9. #24
    us
    Apr 2008
    Central California
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    It appears that the Wagoner map is actually to his "Lost Wagoner Mine," as it is related to Miner's Needle, in the story on the The GeoZone Website. Oops! What's it doing in with the LDM maps?


    Click image for larger version. 

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    It says his ore was rose quarts, too!
    An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.

  10. #25
    us
    Dec 2010
    Arizona
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    EE,

    Im sorry if it sound like i was being a smarta$$.

    Yes i meant "Mexican Miners". But just because it wasnt Waltz i was talking about, doesnt mean it isnt just as interesting.

    If you care to, do a little investigating on the internet and see if you can find out what seperates Mexican miners from other types of miners. They look for something in particular. It will blow your mind when you discover what it is, and you probably wont want to "blurt" it out either.

    Our Geologists said there couldnt possibly be any gold in those Mountains. Obviously the Mexicans had a different opinion.

    Just a "hint".....They STILL mine this way.

    Thanks,
    Travis

  11. #26
    us
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Dutchman
    EE,

    Im sorry if it sound like i was being a smarta$$.

    Yes i meant "Mexican Miners". But just because it wasnt Waltz i was talking about, doesnt mean it isnt just as interesting.

    If you care to, do a little investigating on the internet and see if you can find out what seperates Mexican miners from other types of miners. They look for something in particular. It will blow your mind when you discover what it is, and you probably wont want to "blurt" it out either.

    Our Geologists said there couldnt possibly be any gold in those Mountains. Obviously the Mexicans had a different opinion.

    Just a "hint".....They STILL mine this way.

    Thanks,
    Travis
    Travis,

    Are you talking about flashes?

    If you look in the hardrock mining section of this forum, a year or two ago, I started a thread about that, and a little thing the Germans called "Witterung" The Brits called it "Blue Mist" at the Tin Mines.

    If you spend any time at Rich Hill, you will meet an old timer that sets his old video camera on a tripod near dusk and lets it run until dark. He reviews the video and takes still shots from it when there are flashes. He has a photo album chock full (and they are mostly on the side of the hill where nobody looks). Go on that side of the hill and you will see two or three generations of barrel cacti next to each other in neat lines. That is how the Mexicans know where to look.

    Best-Mike
    "You wouldn't like me when I'm mad, because I back up my rage with hard facts and logic!" - The Credible Hulk

    ............... ALWAYS REMEMBER: When you make a typo, the errorists win...................Aloha Snackbar!

  12. #27
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by FEMF
    <snip>

    Hello Oro
    I've been trying to find a direct connection between the Navajo's and the Superstition Mountains, and can't seem to find anything! Can you point me in the right direction again?
    Thank's Again!
    FEMF
    I don't know of a direct, absolute proof of a Navajo presence there; however they did range considerably farther afield than the areas adjoining their reservation boundaries and were still conducting raids right up to 1900 as you can document in newspaper accounts. Mostly their raids were horse stealing, but murders also occurred. A clue that Weiser's attackers may have been Navajos is in the failure of the warriors to follow up the wounded man, as well as being armed with bows; Apaches were fairly well armed and more likely to be sure of killing their enemy.

    <For an example of a Navajo raid occurring well after their surrender circa 1866, here is one article from 1883
    http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...Navajo+raiding>

    Navajos even were involved in an attack on Tucson, and took refuge in the Catalina mountains; this dates to the 1700's of course but is an indication of the fact they were able to range farther afield than is commonly supposed today.
    Roy

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  13. #28
    us
    Sep 2009
    158
    84 times

    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Oro
    Thanks again! I was thinking of a closer kind of tie, like a superstition type of connection? Just wondering
    FEMF

  14. #29
    us
    Apr 2008
    Central California
    4,016
    25 times

    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    DD & gollum---

    On another topic, there was talk about the flashing stuff and also the gold weed (Desert Trumpet Plant), but the barrel cactus is a new one for me.

    I've also seen it said that certain bushes and trees will turn unusual colors when near natural gold deposits.

    Are any of these what you are talking about, Travis?

    (I tried searching for Mexican prospecting techniques, and old Mexican prospectors, but had no luck.)
    An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.

  15. #30
    um
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by FEMF
    Oro
    Thanks again! I was thinking of a closer kind of tie, like a superstition type of connection? Just wondering
    FEMF
    Actually I had not thought about that angle, thank YOU for the tip! I will be sending you a PM in a moment too.
    Roy
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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