The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

[Springfield]

.... Is it a case of "wanting" to believe? With some things I would agree like the stone tablets, an element of the inner desire to believe is definitely in play but Waltz is a fairly well documented real person, and his sales of gold (while not in the millions) are documented and witnessed. The few specimens purported to have come from his mine still exist. The clues do not all originate from a single source who later admitted to making it all up as you claim. I would highly suggest the book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely. Ely is not a perfect source but did personally interview several of the friends of Waltz, which is as close to the original source as we can get. Bicknell interviewed Julia Thomas, but added in his own material which leaves little of use. Are we to believe that Waltz did not exist? That he did not sell a sizable amount of very rich gold ore to lend money to help Julia? Where did this ore come from if not from a mine? The only specimens still existing don't match any known source. As for the allegations of Waltz being a killer - these mainly come from that source you mentioned, who later admitted to having made up so much. At the other end of the spectrum, among the skeptics there may well be an element of "sour grapes" involved too; since having failed to find it, it is more comforting to think that it never existed or was altogether a different deal as in stolen high grade ore......

We know Waltz existed and sold some ore. I really don't know if the 'Lost Dutchman Mine' existed or not. If I were young again and lived in Central Arizona, I would not spend serious time or energy trying to locate this alleged mine. Why? You cannot trust any information that did not come directly to you from the protagonist (and much from him either) - sorry, it's a fact of life. I believe my point is well demonstrated in this particular case by the lack of a LDM to gawk at, despite untold effort to find it.

Sure, the sources who have provided all the LDM lore may be forthcoming, of the highest integrity and believe with all their hearts that the info is accurate - and they have developed a loyal following who use this stuff as accepted dogma. Many have died in those hills believing in 'facts' they should have realized were most certainly disinformation. That's not to say an avid hobbiest might take on the legend for fun's sake - 'research', history, theories, what-if discussions, a good excuse to explore the mountains, 'adventure', etc. That's why most of us participate in these discussions.

Lost mines and concealed caches have been found, but not from information available in the public domain. As with so much else in life, you don't choose a golden opportunity, the opportunity chooses you. Sorry to seemingly throw cold water on all this, but I've learned to accept reality in life. Bottom line: the evidence supporting a 'Lost Dutchman Mine' seems too thin to warrent a serious commitment.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen ?? As I have gathered, Waltz 'did file' on other prospects, mines, if so, why not on this one? He was naturalized and legally able to do so, no?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Gentlemen ?? As I have gathered, Waltz 'did file' on other prospects, mines, if so, why not on this one? He was naturalized and legally able to do so, no?

Don Jose de La Mancha

One thing I can think of, is that filing would put the location in the public domain.

However, if the thing is so well hidden that a person could walk right over it, that suggests that he could possibly say that his mine was on the other end of the claim from where it really was.

Still, it could be assumed that hoards of people would continuously be scouring that limited area, and then who knows?---Somebody might find it, eventually. Plus, it seems like Waltz didn't like crowds much.

 

[gollum]

Gentlemen ?? As I have gathered, Waltz 'did file' on other prospects, mines, if so, why not on this one? He was naturalized and legally able to do so, no?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Very simple Don Guacamole,

This was his retirement. The moment he filed on this mine EVERYBODY would know where it was. He could not spend his every waking moment guarding it. He was getting old and could only get to it MAYBE once a year for a few days at a time. It was, as he said, in some very rugged country. That leaves a lot of time for others to come in and poach. If I couldn't live on site while I worked it, I would have done the same thing.

Also, there may have been some question as to ownership. He got the location of the mine from (as he states) Don Peralta.

There are no verifiable records of Waltz ever filing a claim on any other mine (to my knowledge). He worked for others on the San Gabriel River (about five miles from my house) in the early 1860s, then moved East.

Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

There are no verifiable records of Waltz ever filing a claim on any other mine (to my knowledge). He worked for others on the San Gabriel River (about five miles from my house) in the early 1860s, then moved East.

Mike - I don't have the stuff right in front of me, but I though it was documented fact that Waltz filed claims along with some other partners on 3 different mines - the Gross Lode, General Grant and Big Rebel. Those names always stick in my head and I thought at least 2 of them were in the Bradshaws. Am I remembering those wrong, cause I could swear I've seen the claim papers with his signature (assuming of course it's the same Jacob Waltz).

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: What is the purpose of filing a claim ? I am sure that if my friend Mike, el gollie, found anything of value that he would promptly file a claim.

Of course you could also lose it if you hadn't completed all of the later requirements, but that would be your fault, such as happened to me.

Of course I was careful to leave no indications where it actually was, and so could have Waltz, so I cannot easily accept the idea that he was afraid that by filing he would allow others to steal it ??

This is the one great flaw that I find in the LDM story.

But then we all do foolish things at one time or the other for reasons that were acceptable then, but not now.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Gentlemen ?? As I have gathered, Waltz 'did file' on other prospects, mines, if so, why not on this one? He was naturalized and legally able to do so, no?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Very simple Don Guacamole,

This was his retirement. The moment he filed on this mine EVERYBODY would know where it was. He could not spend his every waking moment guarding it. He was getting old and could only get to it MAYBE once a year for a few days at a time. It was, as he said, in some very rugged country. That leaves a lot of time for others to come in and poach. If I couldn't live on site while I worked it, I would have done the same thing.

Also, there may have been some question as to ownership. He got the location of the mine from (as he states) Don Peralta.

There are no verifiable records of Waltz ever filing a claim on any other mine (to my knowledge). He worked for others on the San Gabriel River (about five miles from my house) in the early 1860s, then moved East.

Mike

The Tramp raises a very good point. Waltz could have sold or leased the claim, or worked out a legal partnership, or agreed on smelter returns, etc. It could all have been done in the same day - file the claim and the sale/lease one after another in the Clerk's office. If the mine was as rich as presumed, he would have had no problem finding an operator, and quickly. Presumably, he knew players in the game. As far as security is concerned, he could have hired an overseer or agent or private army to protect his interests. His retirement? He was already old.

The Peraltas were out of the loop - they weren't US citizens. Besides, if there was no current claim filed on the site, then per the Mining Law of 1872, the dirt was open for any US citizen 18 years or older to file on.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI again, I am not sure, but I believe that someone mentioned that he was listed on a US census as a citizen ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

and ROY you ask .. the BTK killer , work in a chruch helping people and was seen as a faithfull husband and father yet used the same chruch to help him kill his victums .. and then went back to chruch and acted like nothing was wrong .. he was a coldblooded serial killer ,, sorry you ask ...

and serial killers are often bi polar , nice as nice as can be , yet they use it to trap their victums a little honey goes a long way ... .

 

[Blindbowman]

ok let me ask you this . say i am correct about the will ; who would you beleave , a record in ca ,we dont even know if thats the same waltz or who made the record . or waltz him self in his own will ... i got to beleave the most logical sorce . and thats waltz him self .. he put it in the will . he would have known ....if you want debate the rest of the Holmes manuscript i will be more then willing to .. but lets keep it about the manuscript it self .....

just becasue you beleave one thing and i know the facts to be diffrent then what other beleave dose not make me wrong ...

 

[gollum]

Yes,

He filed for citizenship from Mississippi and received his actual citizenship papers while in California (I believe).

I still say it was too easy for others to get to his mine for him to file. He was about 55 or so when he first worked the mine. He was only able to get to his mine once every few years or so for a few days at a time. That left about 350 days a year that anyone could poach him.

Sorry guacamole. If I found a mine THAT rich, I would likely keep its location all to myself. Maybe hide a few caches for a rainy day, then work it surreptitiously for as long as I could. If something happened to me so I couldn't work the mine any more, I would still have my caches. If my health failed badly, I might then file a claim. Sound familiar (although bad health came on Waltz rather quickly)?

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Yes,

He filed for citizenship from Mississippi and received his actual citizenship papers while in California (I believe).

I still say it was too easy for others to get to his mine for him to file. He was about 55 or so when he first worked the mine. He was only able to get to his mine once every few years or so for a few days at a time. That left about 350 days a year that anyone could poach him.

Sorry guacamole. If I found a mine THAT rich, I would likely keep its location all to myself. Maybe hide a few caches for a rainy day, then work it surreptitiously for as long as I could. If something happened to me so I couldn't work the mine any more, I would still have my caches. If my health failed badly, I might then file a claim. Sound familiar (although bad health came on Waltz rather quickly)?

Mike

Mining history tells us that in the US west, the best discoveries were generally worked only briefly by the discoverers before selling to developers. Why wouldn't Waltz? He knew the score - mining was his bread and butter. Yeah, the ore was allegedly rich - an even better bargaining point for him. Your logic isn't really logical here. It might explain the actions of a younger man with decades ahead of him, but, as you say, at 55 and with limited access and mobility, it seems a no-brainer to take the money and run.

 

[Gossamer]

Fascinating discussion... I don't have anything to add, just wanted to keep reading.
Oro as always you are a great read! When does the book come out on Beth and your adventures?
Thank you
Janiece

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This is a very long reply, my apologies but it was necessary to try to address all the interesting points raised.
Springfield wrote

We know Waltz existed and sold some ore. I really don't know if the 'Lost Dutchman Mine' existed or not. If I were young again and lived in Central Arizona, I would not spend serious time or energy trying to locate this alleged mine. Why? You cannot trust any information that did not come directly to you from the protagonist (and much from him either) - sorry, it's a fact of life. I believe my point is well demonstrated in this particular case by the lack of a LDM to gawk at, despite untold effort to find it.

Sure, the sources who have provided all the LDM lore may be forthcoming, of the highest integrity and believe with all their hearts that the info is accurate - and they have developed a loyal following who use this stuff as accepted dogma. Many have died in those hills believing in 'facts' they should have realized were most certainly disinformation. That's not to say an avid hobbiest might take on the legend for fun's sake - 'research', history, theories, what-if discussions, a good excuse to explore the mountains, 'adventure', etc. That's why most of us participate in these discussions.

Lost mines and concealed caches have been found, but not from information available in the public domain. As with so much else in life, you don't choose a golden opportunity, the opportunity chooses you. Sorry to seemingly throw cold water on all this, but I've learned to accept reality in life. Bottom line: the evidence supporting a 'Lost Dutchman Mine' seems too thin to warrent a serious commitment.

No apologies necessary for any 'cold water' applied, there are plenty of level headed historians whom would surely agree with you. Your first point is why we are reduced to what is generally available in public domain, for Waltz did not leave a written set of directions or hand-drawn map, though he did try to tell his friends which actually fits your specification; it was the protagonist attempting to give the directions directly and privately to his closest friends. These friends did not leave us those directions written down but were interviewed by others who did, as in Sims Ely, Pierpont Bicknell, Dick Holmes and Jim Bark. So indeed it is "third hand" so not of equal value to direct from the protagonist but is the best available.

Mitchell talked to people who claimed to have known Waltz so may "fit" with this third hand level to some degree, but as his version has elements which are not found in Ely or Bark. Dick Holmes information as passed to Brownie may not match what is found in the Holmes manuscript, as Brownie disowned it, so that source may not fit third hand level either.

The pioneer interviews are also third hand at best, and not verifiable as being "friends" with Waltz. They could be what Joe (Cactusjumper) classifies as the Elmer Keith "He11 I was there" syndrome type material.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Gentlemen ?? As I have gathered, Waltz 'did file' on other prospects, mines, if so, why not on this one? He was naturalized and legally able to do so, no?

As Mike already addressed this, I have to agree. We can't know what Waltz's true reason(s) were for not filing on this mine, when he had no problems filing on three (and yes Cubfan you are correct, I don't have the books at hand but they are published) yet didn't file on this one. It appears that he did not want a crowd of people at his mine, when his home was in Phoenix so far away. As it was, if the story of Phipps is to be believed, it was being sniped even while he was still visiting the mine and he knew it. There appears to have been a greater concentration of claim jumpers and dry gulchers in the Phoenix-Florence area than was the case in the Bradshaws, where most of the prospectors seem to have been fairly honest, banded together against enemy Apaches etc.

One key difference between Waltz's claims in the Bradshaws and the case with the mine in the Superstitions, is that he had partners in the Bradshaws. For most of the time he had sole possession of the LDM.

Blindbowman wrote

well if we are going to debate waltz citizenship ,. i have to say i found nothing else in question as much as the statement about his citizenship in the Holmes manuscript. why becasue knowing where the real mine is and knowning how the Holmes manuscript is translate i know the rest of the Holmes manuscript is true to the word ...

i dont think the Waltz in ca. was the same waltz we know as the lost dutchman

What grounds do you base this belief on, that Jacob Waltz of CA is not the Jacob Waltz of AZ? Thank you in advance.

BB also wrote

say this waltz is not the same waltz that had citizenship in ca .. maybe someone used his name come on you got to agree that if thats the case what else in this Holmes manuscript is not true .. i can tell you for a fact i know the translation is true to the letter..

Maybe someone used his ID? For what purpose? This is speculation, pure and simple. As to a "translation" of the Holmes manuscript, it was as far as I know, written in English so no translation is called for.

BB also wrote

so what other parts of the Holmes manuscript do you think are not true ...?

I don't think we can put much trust in any of it, especially when Brownie disowned it. With the false info and no author admitting to it, the Holmes manuscript is highly questionable.

BB also wrote

and let me go on record and say

" i plain to prove the Holmes manuscript is in fact waltz 's WILL"

That will take some proving, to put it mildly. The rest of your speculation as to Waltz encoding his "will" in the form of a deathbed confessional, and Brownie supposedly keeping his father's "theft" of Waltz's will, also will take a lot of proving to get people to believe it. It is fun to speculate but without some solid evidence to support it, we could as easily speculate that Reiney stole Waltz's will and Julia wrote the Holmes manuscript to cover up Reiney's theft, then planted it on Holmes and so on. Speculation without any foundation. I hope you can show something to substantiate all this.

BB also wrote

and ROY you ask .. the BTK killer <snip>

The BTK killer did not give away a large portion of his life savings to help a friend in financial distress - good try, but his "good deeds" were confined to what helped to cover his identity as a vicious killer.

BB also wrote

ok let me ask you this . say i am correct about the will ; who would you beleave , a record in ca ,we dont even know if thats the same waltz or who made the record . or waltz him self in his own will ... i got to beleave the most logical sorce . and thats waltz him self .. he put it in the will . he would have known ....if you want debate the rest of the Holmes manuscript i will be more then willing to .. but lets keep it about the manuscript it self .....

just becasue you beleave one thing and i know the facts to be diffrent then what other beleave dose not make me wrong ...

I don't know why you follow this line of theory; the signatures on the documents sure look alike. Waltz had to sign the document for his citizenship. Waltz also signed a petition while mining in the Bradshaws. There is no reason to think that someone would assume his ID, fake his signature etc. This whole line of reasoning, however much you may believe you know it to be true, is lacking on several grounds - like a foundation for starters.

Gollum wrote

He filed for citizenship from Mississippi and received his actual citizenship papers while in California (I believe).

I still say it was too easy for others to get to his mine for him to file. <snip>

You said that much better than I could, have to agree completely.

Gossamer wrote

Oro as always you are a great read! When does the book come out on Beth and your adventures?

Thank you for the very kind words, but no book on that subject is in the works nor planned. Who would believe it anyway! However I do hope to keep the pressure on our mutual amigo Don Jose' to write his life story, I would appreciate your assistance - we don't want to let him off the hook.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Springy,

You are correct that most miners sold their gold and silver mines to large companies. The flaw of your logic is that most (the very greatest majority) of mines are not bonanza ore. Mostly gold in sulphides, very small flakes in quartz, small percentages in copper and silver ore. For one man to work that kind of mine is WAAAAAAAAAAY too much work (especially if the mine is in very rugged country in the Supers). How many hundreds of pounds of ore would have to be packed out that is five ounces to the ton? Its easy to work and hand cobble ore that's 50% gold.

Makes all the sense in the world. Work it yourself until the super rich ore plays out, then sell the mine.
Waltz didn't want to be a rich man. If he wanted that, he could easily have taken a partner/s and worked the mine year round. That way, he could have reaped the full benefits of it and had the fame that goes with discovering a very rich gold mine.

As it was, he lived a meager life, but had money whenever he needed it (as evidenced by his helping Julia save her business). He always planned to go back. I believe that the real reason we don't know the location of the mine is because his ill health came on very rapidly and stayed with him until his death.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Springy,

You are correct that most miners sold their gold and silver mines to large companies. The flaw of your logic is that most (the very greatest majority) of mines are not bonanza ore. Mostly gold in sulphides, very small flakes in quartz, small percentages in copper and silver ore. For one man to work that kind of mine is WAAAAAAAAAAY too much work (especially if the mine is in very rugged country in the Supers). How many hundreds of pounds of ore would have to be packed out that is five ounces to the ton? Its easy to work and hand cobble ore that's 50% gold.

Makes all the sense in the world. Work it yourself until the super rich ore plays out, then sell the mine.
Waltz didn't want to be a rich man. If he wanted that, he could easily have taken a partner/s and worked the mine year round. That way, he could have reaped the full benefits of it and had the fame that goes with discovering a very rich gold mine.

As it was, he lived a meager life, but had money whenever he needed it (as evidenced by his helping Julia save her business). He always planned to go back. I believe that the real reason we don't know the location of the mine is because his ill health came on very rapidly and stayed with him until his death.

Mike

Actually, the sulphide veins generally came later, at depth. The jackass prospectors were looking for the surface visible gold. But it's a moot point.

You say that Waltz didn't want to be rich. Seems to me that he did want to be rich - why else would he have chosen to be a prospector and file claims on mines for all those years? He was looking for gold. If he had preferred the meager life you describe, he may have been a blacksmith, or farmer, etc. Maybe the reason he raised chickens in Phoenix wasn't because that's the life he preferred, but that his limited stash of ore, wherever it came from, was running low and he had no way of replenishing it because he had no mine.

Like you always say Mike - pay attention to the man's actions, not what he says.

 

[Springfield]

......We can't know what Waltz's true reason(s) were for not filing on this mine, when he had no problems filing on three (and yes Cubfan you are correct, I don't have the books at hand but they are published) yet didn't file on this one. It appears that he did not want a crowd of people at his mine, when his home was in Phoenix so far away. As it was, if the story of Phipps is to be believed, it was being sniped even while he was still visiting the mine and he knew it. ....

Claim jumping has always been a problem in the mining world - in Waltz's time and today too. There have always been ways to deal with the problem. One way is not filing legal claims in lieu of working stealth, the accepted explanation in Waltz's case, but that's a tough way to go. It appears that some of his contemporaries believed that Waltz had a secret rich mine somewhere and that some of these folks tried to follow him into the mountains trying to find the place. Why put up with that, especially if you're reaching your Golden Years (sorry - cheap pun)?

Another way of thwarting claim jumpers is to be first to legally file on the deposit, then take the means to secure the property. Waltz knew the game. Many others were faced with a similar problem and dealt with it. If the mine was as rich as people believe, why not legally take control of it and eliminate the risk that one of the 'snipers' might seize the property?

 

[Loke]

Wow! how utterly refreshing to have a topic on the LDM _without_ the blessed (or cursed - as the case may be) stones! Thanks Oro - this topic is long overdue!
I must agree with Gollum on this one - me, I would have done exactly the same myself. Remember, we are talking about a 16-inch vein - hardly a large-scale operation and if you cant watch it 24/7 there's a more than good chance someone's going to 'run away with it'. Also, being so narrow its no biggie for one man to work out whatever is needed for one's personal need. The richer you are - the more visibility - who needs that at the age of 55+? One can only eat one's fill and sleep in one bed at a time. Waltz - by all accounts - shied away from crowds so why should he have to put up with big crowds and admirers and hangers-on?
For whatever it is worth, _I_ believe there is a LDM. If it can be found today, I don't know (the earthquake).
My biggest doubt in it all is that Bark never found it - who would be more qualified than him? He was a contemporary, he grazed his cattle in the Superstitions and lived at its edge, he seems to have had sufficient help so as not having to work too hard himself - hell, had _I_ been in his position I would have spent every wake moment trying to find the darned thing. Heck, if he couldn't find it - how much chance have we got?

Another thing that have me real puzzled - was there or was there not a Weisner? - the Weisner that was treated by Dr. Walker but died. If one looks at the actions that were taken - yes, there must have been a Weisner ... but following that particular train of thoughts gets us (usually) nowhere. *sigh* Why is this whole thing so darned difficult? It is almost like looking at an embroidery from the wrong side - stitches and colours in all directions with no visble pattern - however, when viewed from above it all makes sense ...

... just thinking out loud here - I beg your indulgence.

Per

 

[gollum]

Spring,

Follow this link to my website. Someone told me they saw an arrastra and a mine on Google Earth. Since I had been out there a few times before looking for the Lost Hermit John Mine, I decided to give it a go. The arrastra turned out to be a cement water cistern, but there were mines. Scroll down to my second trip to the site where I actually found the old mines. The gold sulphide veins are not far from the surface. There is a bit of gold still left as I got some color after I roasted the ore for several hours and panned it.

http://1oro1.com/Lost Mines/aahermitjohn.html

The sulphide veins were pretty, but only about 1/2" to 1" wide.

Here is a chunk of ore from the mine. No visible gold, but the sulphides have started to oxidize (what looks a bit like gold is actually mica):

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Claim jumping has always been a problem in the mining world - in Waltz's time and today too. There have always been ways to deal with the problem. One way is not filing legal claims in lieu of working stealth, the accepted explanation in Waltz's case, but that's a tough way to go. It appears that some of his contemporaries believed that Waltz had a secret rich mine somewhere and that some of these folks tried to follow him into the mountains trying to find the place. Why put up with that, especially if you're reaching your Golden Years (sorry - cheap pun)?

Another way of thwarting claim jumpers is to be first to legally file on the deposit, then take the means to secure the property. Waltz knew the game. Many others were faced with a similar problem and dealt with it. If the mine was as rich as people believe, why not legally take control of it and eliminate the risk that one of the 'snipers' might seize the property?

The reasoning and mindset of the 1800's is not the same as today. There was no such thing as Social Security or Medicare. Waltz is hardly a unique case of a prospector who got what he wanted and simply didn't bother to file or to try to extract all the wealth he could get. He never married or had children either, so clearly he was not the sort of man to simply settle into the "standard" lifestyle that most people follow. Trying to explain away the existence of a mine by reasoning on Waltz not becoming vastly wealthy or not filing is not a good argument. He had very rich ore - some 44 pounds was in the candle box, and the ore came from a mine. Waltz claimed he got the gold from his own mine. I don't see good reasons to conclude he was lying about how he got the gold.

Loke wrote

My biggest doubt in it all is that Bark never found it - who would be more qualified than him?

Bark was a cattle man, not a prospector. I would say a prospector would be more qualified, which is why he partnered up with John Chuning who was a capable prospector. They did find a gold mine that paid off some profit, quite possibly the gold of Apache Jack, not far from the Salt river. In fact it was close enough that they decided to build a water wheel to help process the ore extracted. But your point of his being in the right area and being totally familiar with the terrain is a good one.

Loke also wrote

Wow! how utterly refreshing to have a topic on the LDM _without_ the blessed (or cursed - as the case may be) stones! Thanks Oro - this topic is long overdue!

The stones are certainly a fascinating subject and deserve to be discussed separately, without the interruption of the Lost Dutchman fudging up the debate. And vice versa.

There are a couple of Weisner/Weisse/Weiser fellows who might fit the bill to be the Weiser treated by Dr Walker. Walker is a source of very high reputation, and the fact that his tale of Weiser dovetails so well with Waltz's, I have to accept it.
Oroblanco