The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

Dirty Dutchman

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Hello All,

I just skimmed through the responses, so if someone has already offered this up, I apologize in advance.

I wanted to address the question about why Waltz didnt file a claim. While any theory could be correct, my personal belief is that Waltz didnt file due to the "Reavis Land Fraud" going on at the time. Reavis was making money off of almost everyone in town during that time with his scheme. And Reavis wasnt "found out" until well after Waltz was gone.

If the mine was truly as rich as Waltz described (and I believe it was), then Waltz wanted no part in sharing any of it with anyone. That is the reason for his secrecy (personal opinion). Another reason could be the killings of the two Mexicans that were working the mine. (Obviously I believe the "partner" story, not the Holmes "killer" version).

I believe I read that Reavis actually got quite a bit of money out of the Silver King Mine, which also plays a part in the "Waltz Story". (Deering/Chunning) I like to keep it "simple" when trying to figure out the 'actual' story, and the "Reavis Fiasco" seems to be the easiest explanation of why Waltz never filed a claim.

I believe Dick Holmes completely made up his version of why Waltz never filed, out of necessity. I believe Holmes never actually asked Waltz 'why', and thought he needed to have an answer to that question, before he went 'public' with his story. Now, I do believe 100% that Dick Holmes got directions to the mine. I just don't believe the Holmes version of WHY Waltz gave them to him.

thanks,
Travis
 

Springfield

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Oroblanco said:
..... The reasoning and mindset of the 1800's is not the same as today. .....

It has be argued that the judicial frameworks existing today in the western mining states were jump-started by a need to settle endless disputes over mining claims. Be that as it may, one thing's for certain: human nature never changes.

We can debate Waltz, his mindset, his motivation, his history, his circumstances, his followers, the promoters of his bigger-than-life status, his ore and his alleged mine till the cows come home. It's a great campfire story, a successful cottage industry, and maybe there's some truth behind the legend, but there's certainly not enough reliable information to justify a serious commitment to find it. If there was, it would have already been found.

Say, that's another of the many possibilities: perhaps the mine was relocated decades ago and worked out, leaving just another empty hole in the desert. 'Nothing happening here, let's move on'.

My bottom line on most of these famous lost mines dovetails with what the newspaper guy said in my favorite western, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".
 

Springfield

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gollum said:
....The gold sulphide veins are not far from the surface. There is a bit of gold still left as I got some color after I roasted the ore for several hours and panned it....

Yeah, that's why guys like Waltz would have only worked oxide/native deposits where the gold can be easily concentrated mechanically. It's pretty hard to judge the true richness of the alleged 'LDM deposit' based on Waltz's hand-cobbled high-grade. I remember well the very first shift I worked at the Idarado Mine above Ouray, CO, in 1974. The whole crew, led by our foreman, was high-grading a stringer of picture rock. I came home that night with about 1/8 of a Skippy peanut butter jar of milky white quartz carrying something like 1/3 or 1/2 chunks of gold by volume. It probably would have assayed millions of dollars a ton. Trouble is, you'd have to mine a thousand tons or more to get a ton of the good stuff.
 

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Blindbowman

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Springfield said:
Oroblanco said:
..... The reasoning and mindset of the 1800's is not the same as today. .....

It has be argued that the judicial frameworks existing today in the western mining states were jump-started by a need to settle endless disputes over mining claims. Be that as it may, one thing's for certain: human nature never changes.

We can debate Waltz, his mindset, his motivation, his history, his circumstances, his followers, the promoters of his bigger-than-life status, his ore and his alleged mine till the cows come home. It's a great campfire story, a successful cottage industry, and maybe there's some truth behind the legend, but there's certainly not enough reliable information to justify a serious commitment to find it. If there was, it would have already been found.

Say, that's another of the many possibilities: perhaps the mine was relocated decades ago and worked out, leaving just another empty hole in the desert. 'Nothing happening here, let's move on'.

My bottom line on most of these famous lost mines dovetails with what the newspaper guy said in my favorite western, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

sorry not true

just the right person had to be there at the right time .. simple as that ....
 

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"Good morning gossy, gals, guys, and any gentlemen out there: It was posted by Loke ( my friend)-->
The richer you are - the more visibility - who needs that at the age of 55+? One can only eat one's fill and sleep in one bed at a time. "

********
Yer kidding of course ? Don't you realize that broads are expotentially more expensive as you grow older and less desireable?? shahs. The other toy factors remain the same.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
El gullible posted --> Sorry guacamole. If I found a mine THAT rich, I would likely keep its location all to myself
********
Why?? Are you forgetting your long time, bosom buddies in here ? How would we know where you are if you have a cave in ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Waltz didn't want to be a rich man. If he wanted that, he could easily have taken a partner/s and worked the mine year round
********
Assuming that he actually had a mine, no? Herien lies the problemo. I must admit that I hadn't thought of the Reeves connection before. That is the best reason for not filing so far. Kudos el "scroungy Dutchman" !

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

gollum

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Dirty Dutchman, Krusty Kraut, whatever ;D

Actually, I hadn't thought about Reavis. I'm sure there was probably more than one reason, but the idea that Waltz had a mine is more than backed up by facts we now know (notwithstanding any input by possibly less than honest researchers).

Mike
 

Springfield

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gollum said:
....but the idea that Waltz had a mine is more than backed up by facts we now know ....

A. He possessed some ore.
B. He said he had a mine somewhere in the Superstitions.
C. Dozens of books have 'proved' it was the richest mine in the world.
 

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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Springfield wrote
We can debate Waltz, his mindset, his motivation, his history, his circumstances, his followers, the promoters of his bigger-than-life status, his ore and his alleged mine till the cows come home. It's a great campfire story, a successful cottage industry, and maybe there's some truth behind the legend, but there's certainly not enough reliable information to justify a serious commitment to find it. If there was, it would have already been found.

Say, that's another of the many possibilities: perhaps the mine was relocated decades ago and worked out, leaving just another empty hole in the desert. 'Nothing happening here, let's move on'.

My bottom line on most of these famous lost mines dovetails with what the newspaper guy said in my favorite western, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

Thank you for your opinion, and surely many people would agree with your conclusions. You are however preaching to the sinners rather than the choir here, as we are (mostly) all treasure hunters, whom are well familiar with the problems involved with the information relating to lost treasures. Your summation of the evidence, that being Waltz was in possession of rich gold ore and said he had a mine in the Superstitions, are the two fairly solid facts of this case. For you this is not enough reliable information to justify a serious commitment; however by comparison, this is all that we have for many lost mine cases; Breyfogle had only some rich ore and his word that there was a ledge of it, yet many have gone in search of it, Adams had a single gold nugget and a story yet hundreds of treasure hunters continue to search for it, and many more similar instances. I could relate a similar story to Waltz which is located in SD; an old gentleman whom was making a pauper's living by picking wild raspberries and selling them found a rich gold mine and started selling ore, but did not bring out a lot of it, never filed a claim on it and left only the most vague idea as to where the mine actually was. Like the case with the Dutchman, others have searched for the mine, at least one claimed to have found it and several have died in the search. So for all the validity to your opinion that the Lost Dutchman does not have enough reliable information to justify a serious search, I think you will find that for many treasure hunters the LDM certainly has enough foundation for heading into the Superstitions. The odds are heavily against anyone finding it, but are far from impossible. There was apparently enough to the LDM for a former state Attorney General to search, as well as a highly respected AZ historian - Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn just for examples.

Dirty Dutchman, I had not considered the Reavis grant fraud as a possible factor for Waltz deciding not to file a claim. Many were taken in by Reavis and paid him exorbitant amounts to quiet his claim against their mines and ranches. A factor to consider about this angle would be when Reavis made his grant public, if it occurred near or before the time when Waltz discovered his mine, then it is definitely a factor which he may have been concerned about.
Oroblanco
 

mrs.oroblanco

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Springfield,

So, may I assume that you have proprietary information about some lost mine? I ask, because, you obviously are interested in lost mines, because you post on every lost mine story that I have seen on this forum.

Or, are you afraid someone might find the LDM - or the LAD for that matter - before you do?

Truth be told - as Gollum said - taking out all the stuff we know is probably garbage, the LDM is STILL more likely than not, a real mine. In civil court, that will get you convicted (ask OJ).

Unlike wandering Jesuits and KGC folks, Waltz can not only be authorized, but so can ore he possessed, places he lived, where he was buried, and many more real live "facts" that are indisputable, including his citizenship of this country -

I, too, had never considered the "Reavis" factor, but I have considered the earthquake, and, from going from newspaper to newspaper a few years ago, it did, without a doubt, change some of the landscape of the Supes - including, but not limited to - hiding a water source that was there before the earthquake. Whether that water source was THE water source near Waltz's mine, of course, we don't know.

Beth


Beth
 

gollum

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Spring,

Smarta$$ comments about "dozens of books" does nothing to boost your argument.

The ownership histories of most of the ore samples can be traced back for the most part. The fact that it in no way matches the Vulture, Bulldog, or Wasp Mines, along with the fact that we now know Jacob Waltz was never on the payroll of the Vulture Mine sort of blasts your (even though its not yours) theory. Karl von Mueller researched the LDM, and when he couldn't find it with all his knowledge, he magically made the statement that his mine doesn't exist and Waltz highgraded from the Vulture.

Sounds more like a case of sour grapes "I couldn't find it, so it doesn't exist".

Mike
 

Springfield

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mrs.oroblanco said:
Springfield,

So, may I assume that you have proprietary information about some lost mine? Since you asked, yes.

I ask, because, you obviously are interested in lost mines, because you post on every lost mine story that I have seen on this forum. I'm looking for cross-pollination.

Or, are you afraid someone might find the LDM - or the LAD for that matter - before you do? It'd be nice if somebody found the LDM, if it exists. I'm not attached to it. I am interested in the Superstitions (more cross-pollination). This isn't the place to bring in the LAD.

Truth be told - as Gollum said - taking out all the stuff we know is probably garbage, the LDM is STILL more likely than not, a real mine. In civil court, that will get you convicted (ask OJ). I wouldn't put boots on the ground except as a curiosity about the venue.

Unlike wandering Jesuits and KGC folks, Waltz can not only be authorized, but so can ore he possessed, places he lived, where he was buried, and many more real live "facts" that are indisputable, including his citizenship of this country - Agreed, but we don't know for sure he had a mine.

I, too, had never considered the "Reavis" factor, but I have considered the earthquake, and, from going from newspaper to newspaper a few years ago, it did, without a doubt, change some of the landscape of the Supes - including, but not limited to - hiding a water source that was there before the earthquake. Whether that water source was THE water source near Waltz's mine, of course, we don't know. Reavis is probably a non-issue - haven't thought about him much. That earthquake has been a godsend to frustrated lost-mine seekers all over AZ and NM.
 

Springfield

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Oroblanco said:
.... Your summation of the evidence, that being Waltz was in possession of rich gold ore and said he had a mine in the Superstitions, are the two fairly solid facts of this case. For you this is not enough reliable information to justify a serious commitment; however by comparison, this is all that we have for many lost mine cases; You are 100% correct.

Breyfogle had only some rich ore and his word that there was a ledge of it, yet many have gone in search of it, Adams had a single gold nugget and a story yet hundreds of treasure hunters continue to search for it, and many more similar instances. Correct again.

.....So for all the validity to your opinion that the Lost Dutchman does not have enough reliable information to justify a serious search, I think you will find that for many treasure hunters the LDM certainly has enough foundation for heading into the Superstitions. History proves this as a fact.
 

Springfield

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gollum said:
Spring,

Smarta$$ comments about "dozens of books" does nothing to boost your argument.

The ownership histories of most of the ore samples can be traced back for the most part. The fact that it in no way matches the Vulture, Bulldog, or Wasp Mines, along with the fact that we now know Jacob Waltz was never on the payroll of the Vulture Mine sort of blasts your (even though its not yours) theory. Karl von Mueller researched the LDM, and when he couldn't find it with all his knowledge, he magically made the statement that his mine doesn't exist and Waltz highgraded from the Vulture.

Sounds more like a case of sour grapes "I couldn't find it, so it doesn't exist".

Mike

Actually, that point does boost my argument.

von Mueller isn't one of my favorites, but he is well thought of by a lot of very clever people. I didn't realize he denied the LDM. Maybe he has a point. Again, just to remind you: I didn't say the LDM doesn't exist. I said there is not enough evidence to warrent a search for it.
 

Dirty Dutchman

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Hello,

Oro, according to my research, Reavis was frauding people during the time of Waltz. I don't have my notebook handy to give you the exact dates, but according to the many stories I read, I am 100% sure that it was during Waltz' time. I also believe the "Reavis fiasco" to be another reason Waltz told Rhiney and Julia they couldnt mine it. (That and the fact that they were 'city folk')

Mrs. Oro,

I personally don't believe the earthquake did as much damage as people like to make it seem. While i'm still fairly new, I was able to make many trips into the mountains last Winter, and when you look around, there are so many Giant Rocks "teetering" on what look like pebbles, that it starts to make you wonder how bad the earthquake really was. Some of them look like you could walk up and push them off.

I'm including a picture of what I believe are the "3 staggard Water Tanks" that are part of the Dutchman lore. When i followed the directions and clues to where I though they lead, this is what I ran into. Fresh water, ALL winter long, in 3 "Jacuzzi sized" natural rock "tanks". To my right of the picture, is a pretty good sized boulder, and water is trickling out during the Winter. If you walk around the boulder, there is no water. So it's coming from somewhere. I read through my notes, and came up with a 'clue'. "There is a little bit of brush on the slope above the mine". Well, there are trees above my area, that only mean one thing.....Spring. Once I noticed it, I put it together that there is a seasonal spring way above the Tanks, and that has to be where it's coming from. The spring is not on any map, so it has no name. But it's there, I guarantee it because the only places in those mountains where trees grow like that, are around the Springs.

If you go about 50 yards forward from where this picture was taken, the 'trail' (wash) turns to the right, and there is a shelving cave with Black soot on it from YEARS ago. If you're standing in the wash looking at the cave, there is also a Tree with one limb "pointing" up the side of the hill. If anyone is interested in seeing that, I may post that later.

Enjoy the pic,
Travis
 

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Blindbowman

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Springfield said:
gollum said:
....but the idea that Waltz had a mine is more than backed up by facts we now know ....

A. He possessed some ore.
B. He said he had a mine somewhere in the Superstitions.
C. Dozens of books have 'proved' it was the richest mine in the world.

C: your joking right .....lol
if anything most of the write data i have seen on the mine is full of BS .. only a few parts are even directly relate the the fact of waltz or his life ... but i sure Roy will come on here and tell us what we should think and reply ..


i have gold ore setting in there other room on my desk . i A is correct , i am the only one to have found the mine and i have seen the mine its in the supers so B is correct as well ..

i read a few books on the lost dutchman mine and i have seen none that are impressive IMHO ..

and i hate to tell you this but have of what those book are tell you is fiction and dose not match the real mine ... lol

and when the real mine is made public there will be no dout what so ever that it is in fact the real LDM..roy made the post to focus on anything other then the stones because he was driveing him self nuts trying to figer them out ,,.. some times you got it some times you dont ...lol

but this post was a good idea Roy and even if you dont have the back ground data i do .. i think you could write a good book ,,,...i like my endings to end with the treasure in hand my self , makes you wonder why i got back to ny before i had the ore tested ..
 

cactusjumper

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Travis,

I am at work, so this is according to my dimming memory.......The Reavis scam was kind of a two-part act. The first run, lasted only 1-year, as I recall. It was defeated in court, but came back a few years later, bolstered by some new "evidence/artifacts".

As I recall, the second act was in the last five or six years of Waltz's life. That would have been well after Waltz made his last trip to the mine. I doubt it had any effect on Waltz's decision to not make legal claim to his mine.

Just another mystery tied to the LDM...... :icon_scratch:

I have often wondered about the many balanced rocks in the range. I have serious doubts about the severity of the quake in the interior of the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe
 

Blindbowman

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cactusjumper said:
Travis,

I am at work, so this is according to my dimming memory.......The Reavis scam was kind of a two-part act. The first run, lasted only 1-year, as I recall. It was defeated in court, but came back a few years later, bolstered by some new "evidence/artifacts".

As I recall, the second act was in the last five or six years of Waltz's life. That would have been well after Waltz made his last trip to the mine. I doubt it had any effect on Waltz's decision to not make legal claim to his mine.

Just another mystery tied to the LDM...... :icon_scratch:

I have often wondered about the many balanced rocks in the range. I have serious doubts about the severity of the quake in the interior of the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

some times you act like you know what your talking about when it comes to back ground data .. whens your book coming out joe .. no joking a side ..

i have to agree with you about Reavis scam , it did not relate to waltz or the mine IMHO

i even at first questioned if the stone had something to do with that .. but later found out difrently ..

i think for every balanced rocks there are a dozen or more that fell and a few dozen more show up when no one was looking ,,,,lol

as for the quake ,i have to go by what i saw at the mine ,, i do beleive waltz did put timbers over the shaft ,and they have fallen into the shaft ,.. i can only see this as one of two posable causes .. a quake ..or someone steping on top of it like a old well cap... very very dangerous to say the lest ..but i can make out where the timbers were and the discription match the details of the evidence at the mine ...

at first i thaught the object i think is a mummy of some kind was montuzuima 's mummy .. but you know us treasure hunter . we jump at the chance to make our discoverys bigger then they are ...lol . now i beleive it may be the nephew . he is in fact under a hanging rock ..., maybe thats what waltz was talking about ..maybe he left the nephew body right in the mine ...i wont know tell i can investigate the object and get a better look at it ...would not shock me if it was ...it just did not look to be a younger face and the mummy looked taller 6 ft or so .. looked to be peteifited .. who know i just added what i saw .. what it is ,is till in question ...
 

gollum

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Joe,

While the first run (I think) of Reavis Grant Fraud lasted a little over a year, its' impact on the Phoenix area had to have been HUGE!

First of all, the Silver King Mine paid Reavis $25,000 for a quitclaim, and the Southern Pacific Railroad paid him a total of $55,000. That would have been the biggest news of the time, buuuuuut........

The timeline doesn't mesh too perfectly with Waltz' to be a major factor in the early years after his discovery. If he discovered the mine in the 1860s (even into the 1870s), and Reavis didn't publicly start to enforce his claims until 1883, then he would have had between 10 and 20 years between discovery and the Reavis Claim hitting the papers.

I can see it having an effect on him in the last few years of his life, but not likely early on.

Mike
 

Blindbowman

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thats why i like you mike

you bring up a point , maybe thats why waltz coded his direction so they would not be misteaken for part of Reavis scam.. the will was writen within a few years of waltz death ...before he gave julia her directions .... :coffee2:
 

mrs.oroblanco

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Travis,

Hmmm - you've been reading the Perfil Mapa, I see.

I have a few pictures of that area.


As far as the earthquake doing damage - I wasn't going by the average folks opinions - somewhere, I have geological studies done. I will have to find where they are, and post a few. (and they were not looking for the LDM, imo).


Beth
 

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