The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

[mrs.oroblanco]

BB,

You don't need night vision to know there are people in the Supes at night.

Heck, you don't think I hike in all day long so I can go back when it gets dark, do you? Of course not - we camp in the Supes.

Anybody who goes for any length of time camps in the Supes. Knowing someone is there, and knowing exactly what they are doing are two entirely different things. Plus, there are 1000's of places to stay without anything or anybody seeing you.

Beth

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

your really roughing it .. wheres the TV and lazyboy.

You can't see them? They are made out of the solid rock!!!!


Beth

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan wrote

Having read the past few days of posts here, I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the suggestions that someone specific may be/have been involved in doing something illegal in the SWA. It's one thing to talk about things in private, but it's another when it becomes public no a forum like this.

I have no idea how slander or defamation of character laws work in the "internet age" online, but I think if nothing else it's disrespectful to implicate someone publicly like this by name.

Just my $0.02

I am not sure what statements you are thinking of here Paul? It is fairly common knowledge that Ron and Bob own the Mammoth, and real estate ownership is public record, and it is not located inside the boundaries of the Superstitions Wilderness Area so finding a new vein in the mine would not be an illegal activity right? Then too if an illegal activity occurred enough years ago that it has been longer than the statute of limitations, it is not prosecutable at this point. Slander and libel have always been tricky, and a point that has been used as a successful defense against such charges in past has been that the person making the slanderous-libel statements believed it to be true, then it is not within the legal definition of those terms. To commit slander and libel is to spread false and damaging information, that is known to be false to the person spreading the info. Cactusjumper's post there reads as gossip, but if Joe believes it to be true then it would fail the slander definition, and I can't see where it is accusing any illegal activity? Maybe I am just confused today. If you could point out the statement(s) you are referring to I would appreciate it.

I am no attorney so don't 'take that to the bank' of course. I have never heard of any successful legal defense based on "Roy Decker told me this was OK!".
Oroblanco

Roy - I'm travelling and only have a short time to post. I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than it is, and I may be out of line evening having brought it up - but some of the posts struck me as riding a very thin line between postulating a generic theory and suggesting a specific person(s) was/is involved in illegal activity in the SWA. Usually when that "inner voice" warns me of something it's correct.

I'll be home in a few days and can send you a PM or e-mail if you want to clarify my thoughts, however I think if you were to go back and re-read some of the posts you would see my point.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

If you want to have a fire in the SWA, you have to do it by way of a hobo stove or a propane stove, because there are no ground fires allowed.
(like I'm really going to pack in 10 propane bottles - I prefer the hobo stove route if I plan to be there for more than one night).

But, just so you know - it has nothing to do with the place going up in flames - the "official" line is that burned wood from campfires will ruin the ground.

More dumb $hit, as, every one knows that one of the ways to enrich soil is ash. But, that's just more environmentalist BS.

Beth

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Something else, that I wanted to address last night, but, crashed and burned, so didn't (canned garden stuff for 12 hours).

The Wilderness Act of 1964.

Several items.

1) It was supposed to be for FOREST SERVICE lands only, and somehow, they extended it to BLM lands.

2) It was supposed to be for unmineralized areas - The Supes not having minerals is BS, and many folks know it.

3) One of my favorites that everyone just "glosses over", and I'm going to quote this one:

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources,


AND



effective January 1, 1984, the minerals in lands designated by this Act as wilderness areas are withdrawn from all forms of appropriation under the mining laws and from disposition under all laws pertaining to mineral leasing and all amendments thereto.

What this says is that you cannot file a mining claim - that's what "appropriation and disposition" means - filing mining claims and filing of patents.



Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Unless the rules have changed since 2004, campfires are allowed in the Superstions. That would depend on the conditions in the area you are camping. If there are any questions about that, I would suggest you contact Scott at:

J. Scott Wood
Forest Archaeologist / Heritage Program Manager
Tonto National Forest
2324 E. McDowell Road, Phoenix, AZ 85006
voice: (602) 225-5231 FAX: (602) 225-5295
[email protected]



In that respect, he has seen too many bodies, over the years, hauled out of the mountains over foolish theories that are not based in reality/history.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

This past year, 3 different areas we went to - including the Tortilla spot, had new "no ground fires" posters. (not no fires, no ground fires), with this big old explanation of how it was ruining the environment. There was one at Tortilla, one at Fish Creek and one somewhere else, can't remember which.

Going to the "fire restriction" site for Tonto, I see they were lifted on July 22nd of this year.

Fire restrictions lifted on Tonto National Forest; fireworks prohibited at all times
PHOENIX, Ariz. (July 20, 2011) – All campfire and smoking restrictions affecting the Tonto National Forest are being lifted, effective 8 a.m., Friday, July 22.

We always carry a hobo stove for the times when there are major fire restrictions.

However, the environmental groups are trying to make the campfires (ground fires) illegal, the statement they put out is as follows: (and this is a shortened version of the document they put out, since they are even more long-winded than me)

Due to the fragile nature of the desert environment, the study should include the availability of campfire fuel resources in the upland Desert Zones.

Fires are currently permitted in the Superstition Wilderness, and inventory strongly reflected this allowance. The issue and potential restrictions related to campfires will continue to be a concern.

Vegetative damage is always a consideration in the backcountry, and is usually an indicator of firewood collection. About 1/3 of all sites in the Superstition Wilderness Area had vegetative damage, including tree and shrub damage.

There is alot more figures, but their bottom line was:

The relationship between campfire fuel availability, fuel gathering and cacti damage should be further evaluated. In most cases, campfires should be restricted.

So - yes, you can normally have a campfire - but, you need to watch the fire restrictions (which, by the way, is always triggered by 3 consecutive days of 100 degrees or more - as per the FS), and whenever they think its too dry or whatever during other parts of the year, but, you have to know where, when and if that "right" is applicable to your time there.

Beth

 

[EE THr]

"Vegetative damage is always a consideration in the backcountry, and is usually an indicator of firewood collection. About 1/3 of all sites in the Superstition Wilderness Area had vegetative damage, including tree and shrub damage.

"The relationship between campfire fuel availability, fuel gathering and cacti damage should be further evaluated. In most cases, campfires should be restricted."

Whoever cuts green trees, green shrubs, or green cacti to build a fire, is going to have a cold night.

That just sounds goofy.

 

[Zephyr]

"Vegetative damage is always a consideration in the backcountry, and is usually an indicator of firewood collection. About 1/3 of all sites in the Superstition Wilderness Area had vegetative damage, including tree and shrub damage.

"The relationship between campfire fuel availability, fuel gathering and cacti damage should be further evaluated. In most cases, campfires should be restricted."

Whoever cuts green trees, green shrubs, or green cacti to build a fire, is going to have a cold night.

That just sounds goofy.

That usually happens when the panic sets in, after they find out their "environmentally friendly" solar stove isn't working....

 

[Oroblanco]

Paul - no need to go back and re-read, I see what you are referring to and yes it does appear to be skating pretty close to the edges. I will watch what I say in future.

I have never visited Adolph Ruth's campsite but would like to ask a question of those who have; did Ruth have a camp fire? Just curious, but it would tell us something if he had a campfire, that there was time for it. I have looked at photos of his camp but can't tell for sure if he had a fire or not. Thank you in advance.
Roy

 

[Terry Soloman]

Having grown up in Arizona, and hiked the Superstitions since I was a small boy, I have read this thread with great interest. Whole lot of theories, very few facts. There is gold south, west, east and north of the Superstition range. In 54-years, I never met a soul that could show me gold from the Superstitions. I have participated in several search and recovery operations in the Superstitions, mostly in the 1970's, and I have seen a lot of stupid and greedy people.. just no gold.

Come on up to the Weaver or Bradshaw mountains if you want gold, or south to Globe, Tucson and Yuma!

 

[Terry Soloman]

Hello BBM! I take you at your word, as I have lived long enough to understand I do not know everything. Yes, the "possibility" of gold exists EVERYWHERE. As a gold prospector for 40-years, I can tell you that the "probability" of gold in the Superstitions is extremely low, similar to your chances of finding a deposit in New York State - the geology is all wrong!

After getting out of the Army in 1976, and getting bored as heck working a smoke tower for the Forest Service in Prescott, Arizona, for a few months, I hitchhiked across the country and ended up in the wrong car on the Bronx River Parkway. When I woke up, I was living in White Plains, had five kids, a wife, and lots of bills! I'll never do that again!

My Dad, Ray Soloman, and his buddy Jack, were really into the Spanish Conquistadors and missionaries. They taught me to read trail signs and such. Over the years, they were quite successful at finding Spanish and religous trail stashes. Your chance of finding Apache stashes from robberies are so much better than finding raw gold in the Superstitions. That, is what most gold fevered folks overlook.

The Superstition range is the traditional escape route into Mexico for the Apache and even the Yavapai. The bandits from the 1800s used them extensively. Wire gold from the Superstitions? As I said, not very likely - but certainly possible. I congratulate you BBM but I am very skeptical.

Having grown up in Arizona, and hiked the Superstitions since I was a small boy, I have read this thread with great interest. Whole lot of theories, very few facts. There is gold south, west, east and north of the Superstition range. In 54-years, I never met a soul that could show me gold from the Superstitions. I have participated in several search and recovery operations in the Superstitions, mostly in the 1970's, and I have seen a lot of stupid and greedy people.. just no gold.

Come on up to the Weaver or Bradshaw mountains if you want gold, or south to Globe, Tucson and Yuma!

terry if your from white plains , i live up in st lawernce country .. i would like to show you some fine wire gold from the supers ... yes it was found near my site and yes it is fine wire gold .. be my guest and stop in, i would be more then willing to show you this sample ..if your in white plains now why did you move up here if you dont mind me asking ?

i live in Heuvelton , ny ,20 miles southwest from Ogdensburg , i dont think there is gold at my site i know there is .fact .and yes i do have a sample . as fine as this wire gold is its the type and fact it is gold that makes it interesting ...one person like you is worth a dozen of those fools ... come and see for your self ...i dont know you and you can judge it for your self ...

and yes i agree the supers are not the gold mother load . just a pocket deposite ...isolated and very pure ...

the LDM is real and isolated by it self where no one woulds ever look for gold ..

 

[Terry Soloman]

you dont hunt any more terry ?..

Oh sure! http://www.TerrySoloman.com

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ok Terry, what is it worth to you to keep my big mouth shut on Rice and you ?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm snicker.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Terry Soloman]

Ok Terry, what is it worth to you to keep my big mouth shut on Rice and you ?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm snicker.


Don Jose de La Mancha

LOL! Get in line pal, get in line!

 

[Nugget Hunter Smith]

In the 16 years that I have lived in Apache Junction and worked/owned the local prospecting store, I have seen gold that has come out of the Superstition's almost every year. I have sent people to Tortilla Creek and Fish Creek and both have gold in them plus many other areas. Now admittedly it is not a great amount and the biggest has been about the size of a pea but it is there. Common sense tells you that it is there!

Our mineralization belt starts over by Morinci/Clifton and cuts at a 45 degree diagonal across the State towards Kingman and the authorities want you to believe that it jumps or skips from the east side to the west side of the Supserstitions. BS!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I have to do a little "sticking up' for Scott Wood - especially since I have had more than a few words with him.

First - Scott Wood never told me he didn't think there was gold in the Supes. Everyone and anyone - who has ever spent time in the Supes KNOWS, unequivocably, that, you can pan gold out of the Supes in several places.

Scott Wood has also spent many years putting up with some of the most asinine and ridiculous "theories" and "facts" - everything from ghost indians to the Peralta Stones, to gold falling from the skies and dinosaurs coming from a time portal.

He has, for years, put up and checked out an infinite number of these claims, and, with even the slightest bit of "proof" has given MANY, the benefit of the doubt.

God knows, he has listened to me - AND, has, proven to ME, PERSONALLY, why he has doubts. It is unbelievable some of the stuff that the man has been subjected to.

He has even come on this website - to this forum - to discuss, personally, things that he has been told and some of the things he has found.

Scott is NOT anti-mining, he is NOT anti-treasure hunting - and, he is NOT a skeptic that there may, indeed, be things that have not been found, and, he would actually ENJOY good proof, good evidence and even maybe a new find.

He DOES insist on straight stories, straight evidence, good pictures, (not Google Earth) good reasoning, and that the person who comes to see him has really had experience with boots on the ground.

If you really think that this is a man who has dedicated his life to making sure that nobody has access to anything, than you do not know Scott Wood.

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

You are right on concerning Scott. He's a good man trying to do a, often, thankless job. Many people in the area know him, and he is well respected.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

OHIO Beth & cactus: I personally have never met him, but from what and how he posted in here, I am behind him 100% and have so stated. I even managed to get a few skirmishes in on his behalf, as if he needed any help..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Joe and Beth,

We are in complete agreement here. While I haven't met him face to face, I have corresponded with him many times on several subjects. He has been a wealth of information for me, and given me an introduction to USFS folks down South of there. The man has held his job in Tonto for almost thirty years now, and been exploring the area for ten years before that. I don't think you'll find many folks more knowledgeable than him on the area.

As to why he would tell people such things; the reasons are endless. No matter his personal beliefs on the LDM, Stone Maps, Jesuit Treasure, Caves of gold bars, etc, his first job is as an Archaeologist. He wants to protect Tonto's Archaeological Resources from people (erstwhile treasure hunters usually) that might deface an Indian Panel thinking they are hiding some LDM Clue from other treasure hunters (how many times do you think that has already happened?), find an Indian Dwelling and start digging holes under it looking for caches, etc. I am sure he also doesn't want tenderfeet wandering off into the back country of the Supers hunting the LDM (or whatever) if he doesn't feel they are knowledgeable enough about wilderness survival (four LDM hunters dead in the last two years). Still any wonder why none of the Park Rangers or Archaeologists will tell you anything other than "move along, nothing to look at here." LOL

Scott is a very good guy, and more open than most about treasure hunting (as long as he sees you have some common sense wrapped around that lust for gold).

Mike