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  1. #141
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,106
    636 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    what do you know about the real mine Roy..?
    May be more than you might think!

    "The opening of the mine is no larger than a barrel"

    "From above my mine, you can see a pointed peak to the south"

    "From my mine, you can see the old military trail; but from the trail, you can not see my mine"

    "The setting sun shines in the mouth of my mine"

    "My mine lies in a north-trending canyon"

    "You must pass a cow barn on your way to my mine"

    "There is a rock face on the trail to my mine"

    "There is a trick in the trail to my mine"

    "There is a spring near my mine, but we camped at the other spring"

    Waltz sealed his mine with ironwood logs and covered with rocks and earth, camouflaging it so well that he warned Reiney,

    "Reiney, you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!"


    Name:  AEmatchbox-of-Waltz-ore.jpg
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    What would you like to know?

    Blindbowman also wrote
    i beleive i was asking Roy a question ...?
    I believe Beth was talking to you about a totally different thing, not answering for me; a discussion between you and that fellow would be interesting.

    Cactusjumper wrote

    Roy,

    "The geology of the Superstitions is not the most promising for finding rich gold deposits. Mostly it is volcanic type rock, practically barren of gold or silver except for small areas tending along the southern edge of the Wilderness Area. To be sure there is gold there, you can pan out some color in a number of places, but if you are out to find gold I would suggest almost any other gold district of Arizona before the Superstitions."

    It's been many years ago, but I remember talking to my uncle about this subject. He took out a map showing mines in Arizona. As I remember, there were mines running in a belt from the northwest to the southeast. They ran right up to the Superstitions and stopped. Nothing to speak of until you got over on the east side, where the picked up again and continued to the southeast.

    My memory ain't so good anymore, but that's how I remember it. Maybe someone knows what I am talking about, or knows that my memory is worse than I thought.
    I don't see much to disagree with here, and have to agree (mostly) with what Beth said on this as well. Any particular area can be geologically quite un-promising for a rich gold deposit, and yet have a few hidden in it; look at the Vulture for instance, or the Dragoons which are probably a bad example for they are promising for copper and in AZ gold is always associated with copper. The volcanic activity which created the Superstitions may have covered up some extremely rich gold veins, the big trick is finding them - then another big trick in ever getting anything out of it.
    Roy


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  3. #142
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    501 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Gossamer
    Thank you Joe, I knew I saw it somewhere... and yes I plan to be at the Rendezvous! Health cooperating with me, I'll be there.
    Janiece

    (can you have ATVs at the campgrounds?)
    We have brought our quad before. It's no problem.



    There are many people praying for our friend Janiece's health. We look forward to visiting with you, again, at the Rendezvous.

    Joe & Carolyn

  4. #143

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    912
    407 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    I agree Beth. Gold is all around the mountain. I think there is gold under the mountain volcanic rock.

  5. #144

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    IMHO the trem is cluster pocket deposites ,i believe the mine is a cluster deposite. we see it in Gem hunting more then mineing IMHO

  6. #145
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,106
    636 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    IMHO the trem is cluster pocket deposites ,i believe the mine is a cluster deposite. we see it in Gem hunting more then mineing IMHO
    Why would you say it is a cluster deposit? Waltz described it as a single thick vein running for some distance; one version of the Dr Thorn description has it as a single thick vein of white quartz. If you mean that a group of mines is around the LDM, what evidence is there to support that view?

    The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine.

    There is a remarkable difference between the dozen or so prospectors who claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine in the early years (up to around 1940) and those of recent days - in virtually every case of the early reports, the prospectors involved had very rich gold ore to show. We don't see that today. As far as I know, every one of the early claimants did not truly find Waltz's mine, but some other very rich gold mine and they were quite happy with the results regardless of any loss of fame - yet today we do not see that either. It seems as if <for many searching today> it is all about the status, fame and recognition. I guess I am too much of the old school for to me, it hardly makes any difference what name a rich mine is called, nor what people think of the find.

    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  7. #146
    us
    Feb 2008
    Apache Junction, AZ
    MXT 300 / Javelina Gold Trommel
    277
    4 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    IMHO the trem is cluster pocket deposites ,i believe the mine is a cluster deposite. we see it in Gem hunting more then mineing IMHO
    Why would you say it is a cluster deposit? Waltz described it as a single thick vein running for some distance; one version of the Dr Thorn description has it as a single thick vein of white quartz. If you mean that a group of mines is around the LDM, what evidence is there to support that view?

    The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine.

    There is a remarkable difference between the dozen or so prospectors who claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine in the early years (up to around 1940) and those of recent days - in virtually every case of the early reports, the prospectors involved had very rich gold ore to show. We don't see that today. As far as I know, every one of the early claimants did not truly find Waltz's mine, but some other very rich gold mine and they were quite happy with the results regardless of any loss of fame - yet today we do not see that either. It seems as if <for many searching today> it is all about the status, fame and recognition. I guess I am too much of the old school for to me, it hardly makes any difference what name a rich mine is called, nor what people think of the find.

    Oroblanco

    One thing about Gold/Treasure being found in today's time as apposed to 30's-40's, The government will be the first one to your door if you claim finding/ recovering anything and then the trolls right behind them! IMHO fortune is much easier to deal with if fame doesn't come with it......loose lips sink ships, say nothing to no one, yada yada yada Just my personal view on it.....I would never say a word, would leave it in my last will and testament and possibly not even then.

    Tim
    "THE GOLDEN RULE"&nbsp;
    ...The one with the most gold makes all the rules...

  8. #147
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    501 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Roy,

    "The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine."

    As I recall, the Peralta legend of 18 mines.....or so, places them all over the range. Does that qualify as a "cluster deposit"?

    Thanks,

    Joe

  9. #148

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    IMHO the trem is cluster pocket deposites ,i believe the mine is a cluster deposite. we see it in Gem hunting more then mineing IMHO
    Why would you say it is a cluster deposit? Waltz described it as a single thick vein running for some distance; one version of the Dr Thorn description has it as a single thick vein of white quartz. If you mean that a group of mines is around the LDM, what evidence is there to support that view?

    The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine.

    There is a remarkable difference between the dozen or so prospectors who claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman mine in the early years (up to around 1940) and those of recent days - in virtually every case of the early reports, the prospectors involved had very rich gold ore to show. We don't see that today. As far as I know, every one of the early claimants did not truly find Waltz's mine, but some other very rich gold mine and they were quite happy with the results regardless of any loss of fame - yet today we do not see that either. It seems as if <for many searching today> it is all about the status, fame and recognition. I guess I am too much of the old school for to me, it hardly makes any difference what name a rich mine is called, nor what people think of the find.

    Oroblanco

    thats a well worded reply ROY .

    Roy ask
    " Why would you say it is a cluster deposit?

    why ,because most deposits have higher purities and qualities then veins or placers ...the discription alone told me that .. but seeing where it is tells me a lot more ...

    ROY said
    "single thick vein running for some distance"

    very true , the vein dose run away from the main deposite, but waltz neaver knew the main deposite was there .





  10. #149
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,106
    636 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by BenThereDoneThat

    One thing about Gold/Treasure being found in today's time as apposed to 30's-40's, The government will be the first one to your door if you claim finding/ recovering anything and then the trolls right behind them! IMHO fortune is much easier to deal with if fame doesn't come with it......loose lips sink ships, say nothing to no one, yada yada yada Just my personal view on it.....I would never say a word, would leave it in my last will and testament and possibly not even then.

    Tim
    Well people do get discouraged about the difficulties involved in getting legal ownership for sure, but it can be done. It does take real, solid proof of a find though not solutions to treasure maps or satellite images, which is where people get hung up. Have to agree on not advertising sudden wealth too, and not just for the greedy fingers of Big Brother, you may find that you have relatives you never heard of that will turn up on your doorstep!

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy,

    "The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine."

    As I recall, the Peralta legend of 18 mines.....or so, places them all over the range. Does that qualify as a "cluster deposit"?

    Thanks,

    Joe
    I have to agree, unless we want to start counting the Mother Lode country of CA as a "cluster"? I would not call it a cluster. What I would call a cluster would be fairly closely spaced, closely related mineral deposits not scattered over a mountain range.

    Blindbowman wrote
    Roy ask
    " Why would you say it is a cluster deposit?

    why ,because most deposits have higher purities and qualities then veins or placers ...the discription alone told me that .. but seeing where it is tells me a lot more ...
    Higher purities than veins or placers? I am not sure what you mean by this statement?

    Blindbowman also wrote

    ROY said
    "single thick vein running for some distance"

    very true , the vein dose run away from the main deposite, but waltz neaver knew the main deposite was there
    Waltz never knew the main deposit was there? You really underestimate how good a prospector Jacob Waltz was; he had prospected and worked in mines in CA, there have been hints that he also prospected some in NC before coming west; he discovered or help discover several very rich mines in the Bradshaws, and his description of the lost mine certainly does not suggest that he didn't know what it was very well. Why do you feel that Waltz never knew the main deposit was there, especially in light of the statement attributed to Waltz that there was 'enough gold showing to make millionaires out of twenty men'? I have to respectfully disagree, I suspect that Waltz knew that mine very well indeed, but would like to hear what makes you believe otherwise, thank you in advance.

    Have to sign out but will drop in later this evening,
    Roy




    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  11. #150

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper
    Roy,

    "The Peralta saga does include a group of mines of course; yet Waltz is only directly connected with a single mine. All those who claimed to have seen it, only refer to a single mine."

    As I recall, the Peralta legend of 18 mines.....or so, places them all over the range. Does that qualify as a "cluster deposit"?

    Thanks,

    Joe
    NO , it dose not .. cluster deposites are sorce related

  12. #151

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    ROY

    with the hanging rock over his head there is no way he could have tested to see how far the vein ran in that direction ..so there is no way he could have known the main deposite was there ..its most likely a volcanic vent or plug ...IMHO it will mirror the Hoya and be a volcanic vent blow out or chemmey or plug ..maybe a few hunderd ft deep ..by the size of the flow off . i would say at lest a few hunderd ft deep if not a thousand ft deep or more .. but you also have to remember these are surface faultlines ..not often more then a few hunderd ft deep ..most likely not more then a 1000ft deep, more like 300-400 ft would be more realistic IMHO ..

    but i will know more when i see it up close ..
    but i beleive your going to find out the Fault line runs threw 4 of the deposties

    that dose in fact make them part of the same sorce and dose make them cluster deposites..

  13. #152
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    10,188
    814 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Hmmm listening, listening & plotting..

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  14. #153

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
    Hmmm listening, listening & plotting..

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    RT you going to the Rendezous ?
    if you can not hike in
    i will bring you a sample if its the real LDM ...

  15. #154

    Apr 2008
    AZ
    356
    2 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Thank you very much Joe and Carolyn, I appreciate prayers.

    OK for what it is worth, my cousin, who was one of the top guys with the Magma mines and worked all over the world for mining conglomerates, believes that there is plenty of gold in that area.

    Has anyone heard of a special crystal that can be found in few places on earth, but can be found in AZ, that is actually illegal to sell out of the US?
    And would that crystal perhaps be one of the reasons that LDM was supposed to be so high grade?
    Janiece

  16. #155
    Charter Member

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    5,272
    501 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Janiece,

    You are more than welcome.

    Are you talking about the Herkimer Diamonds?

    Take care,

    Joe

  17. #156
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    5,106
    636 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindbowman
    ROY

    with the hanging rock over his head there is no way he could have tested to see how far the vein ran in that direction ..so there is no way he could have known the main deposite was there ..its most likely a volcanic vent or plug ...IMHO it will mirror the Hoya and be a volcanic vent blow out or chemmey or plug ..maybe a few hunderd ft deep ..by the size of the flow off . i would say at lest a few hunderd ft deep if not a thousand ft deep or more .. but you also have to remember these are surface faultlines ..not often more then a few hunderd ft deep ..most likely not more then a 1000ft deep, more like 300-400 ft would be more realistic IMHO ..

    but i will know more when i see it up close ..
    but i beleive your going to find out the Fault line runs threw 4 of the deposties

    that dose in fact make them part of the same sorce and dose make them cluster deposites..
    Well, that sounds like you are in large part speculating? Certainly Waltz didn't exactly have diamond drills or geomagnetic mapping, but considering his background and expertise, I would very much hesitate to say he would have missed a large gold deposit. Besides, he already did say there was a lot of gold showing, a large deposit by one definition of the term. Just on the (slim) evidence, it sounds more to me like he certainly did find a large deposit, and deliberately left it, taking only what he thought would suffice rather than blindly missing a large deposit.

    I take it you are of the opinion that four mines are directly connected to the same vein that Waltz was mining? Wouldn't that have greatly increased the odds that someone else would have found them by now? Just asking, I have some doubt that the whole Peralta saga with multiple mines may well be fictional, or if true, is geographically displaced. Treasure writers have been doing that (moving treasure stories) for some time.

    Herkimer diamonds are found in the Superstitions? I had never heard that before, <I had heard of the cave of diamonds which turned out to be calcite> but would be a neat thing to find. Of course there may well be a very different kind of illegal crystal being cooked up in the Superstitions now, which would be a very dangerous thing to find.

    Oroblanco

    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  18. #157

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Quote Originally Posted by Gossamer
    Thank you very much Joe and Carolyn, I appreciate prayers.

    OK for what it is worth, my cousin, who was one of the top guys with the Magma mines and worked all over the world for mining conglomerates, believes that there is plenty of gold in that area.

    Has anyone heard of a special crystal that can be found in few places on earth, but can be found in AZ, that is actually illegal to sell out of the US?
    And would that crystal perhaps be one of the reasons that LDM was supposed to be so high grade?
    Janiece
    i think your talking about so4 crystall , like what are in the crystal caves in mexico ,, and yes that is what i may have found in the area ,, i have a peice of it and will bring it with me to the Rendenzous .. maybe someone there can id the type of stone but the conditions at the crystal caves in mexico are 100 % a match to the area i am talking about ..i will explain at the Rendezous..

  19. #158

    Aug 2007
    1,120
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Herkimer diamonds come from herkimer county NY , but i think you are both right ..they are not real diamonds they are pure calcite if i remember right . joe your starting to rub off on me ,,, memory is on vaciation already...lol

  20. #159

    Apr 2008
    AZ
    356
    2 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    I'm not sure, but I don't think they are called herkimer diamonds, I dont' think they are of the same kind that were found in Mexico, although that whole story is an amazing one.

    Its something my miner cousin said, that there were crystals so pure that they were used in computer design. They were illegal to export and darn it I wish I had taken notes. Since I'm annoyed with said cousin for not paying attention to his Mom... He was the one that was a miner, but not the executive. He was very much a rock hound and knew Superior like the back of his hand. Some of the things he showed me and told me about, were, very interesting.

    The one thing was that my Uncle was a miner and rock hound and other not so legal things... lol, I was 6 and adored him, followed him around and collected rocks with him. What I will never understand is why I didn't collect arrowheads, when they were everywhere, silly kid.

    But my summers were spent in Superior, running around the desert, and boy did my sis and I find enough danger out there. Including men chasing us out of Box Canyon with sawed off shot guns. And wild boar...that and since I was youngest no one would let me ride my cousins horse, so well I kinda borrowed it... it was very painful, cactus and all, with everyone running out the front and screaming for me to stop, then covering up the deed, so they wouldn't get in trouble for not watching me. Under penalty of death, I was not to disclose the incident.

    But the area up there was so amazing with the rock hunting and other mischief.

    Cousin also gave me a wonderful little (pipe), bisque that is rather naughty, with a 'saloon girl' and the 'smoke' comes out, ah well that is for another forum and its so old, he found that at an old camp that the miners would stay at.

    I will have to find out about those crystals, and get back to your guys, even if I have to pull cousin out and 'extract' the info. I would like to know the info on them, he seemed to believe it had something to do with that mountain.
    Oh well, more later.
    Janiece

  21. #160

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    912
    407 times

    Re: The Lost Gold Mine of Jacob Waltz, not Peralta stones related

    Herkimer diamonds are double terminated quartz crystals
    I'm also a Graduate Gemologist. Find some crystals you need a ID on I can help you out. Least I can do.

 

 
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