RDT asked "Was there ever really a Dutchman Mine"? This leads to my favorite clue. Its not really a clue, maybe an anti-clue. Its an event in Jacob Waltz life that is mystifying, at least to me, and Ive never really seen a plausble explanation. In 1878 JW signed all of his material property over to Andrew Starrar in return for 50 dallars and the promise that AS would care for Jacob for the remainder of his life. Why? JW was around 68 yrs old at this time and according to legend had already found his mine. This action does not represent the bwhavior of a man that has a mine that would make "20 men millionaires". Jump to the flood. Andrew Starrar's "now" property that JW lives on is wiped out. Jacob is sick and again desperate. He is taken in by Julia. He lived approximately 8 months before his death. With Andrew his enticement for care was his property. With Julia he no longer had property. Could it not be possible, knowing the curiosity people had about his gold(which could have come from a lifetime of hoarding, finding a cache, or a small glory hole) that he used that curiosity and embellished it considerably to entice Julia to care for him. We know that during these two periods of his life he was quite desperate and fearful. During his life in Phoenix he certainly never lived like someone with a fabulous goldmine. In fact some of his neighbors described his life as "extreme poverty". So the question is "did JW really have a fabulous mine as presented in legend"? Just thinking out loud here. Sorry if I got too far off topic but the topic say "clue/evdence. Ralph Johnson
You make some excellent points in your post. I have often considered the same things. A sick old man might be capable of telling a few stories to get some care in his final days. Thing is, he sent his caregiver into a complete hell-hole, for a city girl, that might have got her as well as Rhiney killed. Was he the kind of man who would have done that?
Look forward to seeing you at the Rendezvous......
On the "coin" of the Waltz legend, one side says that he gave out clues, from time to time, about where his mine was located. The flip side says that he only told of it's location on his death bed.
If he did have the alleged mine, why would he give out clues when he was still wanting to keep it a secret? One person posted on this forum that most, if not all, of those clues from when he was still able, originated from a single person who liked to make up stories to tell fascinated listeners.
But if Waltz did let a clue out once in awhile, maybe it was merely to give the impression that all of his saved-up gold was out in his mine, which could never be found, because it didn't exist.
And that leaves his last instructions, which he gave to his caretakers towards the end. So, did he really want them to have his fabulous source of gold, or was there no mine at all, and what he told them was because they tickled his feet with a feather until he gave up something---anything?
On the third hand, there actually is a place, on a line between Weaver's Needle and Four Peaks, and at the edge of a five mile circle around Weaver's needle, where the Four Peaks are lined up to look like one, and Weaver's Needle can be seen from a hill, and there is a "rock face," as in the popular clues. Just a coincidence?
An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.
Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Ahh Cubber, therein lies the problem. First, was there ever really a Dutchman mine?
Don Jose de La Mancha
First, was there ever really a Dutchman mine
NO, he took the Ma mine from the peralta ..i can postiveley define this mine as the Ma mine ..
is there a mine..? yes ...the Ma mine is real ...if i can make it to the Rendenous i plain to prove it once and for all ...its going to brake a few eggs .. to bad ..
rfjj,
Good post. I am curious about something if JW Starrar did in fact enter into an agreement to take care of Waltz, why didn't he?. After the flood Waltz certainly did need some help, what ever became of Starrar? I wonder if he ever stopped by to bring old Waltz some candy or flowers during his recovery. And just why wasn't he taking care of him instead of Julia? did he return the $50.00.
Bill96
It was Andrew Starrar that Jw made the deal with. I dont think the other brother had anything to do with it. Why didnt AS take care of JW? Good question. There is some indication in Dr Glovers book that JW had become somewhat of a nuisance between the time of the agreement and the flood and he was (AS) glad to get the monkey off his back when Julia took JW. The Starrar bros. were also going bankrupt at this time and were dealing with that instead of JW. Andrew Starrar gave Jacob the 50 dollars, not the other way round.
Joe
I dont think JW would have purposfully sent his caregivers into harms way. But I dont think he meant for them to go in during the summer. In fact he originally said theey would go when it was cooler, according to Sims Ely. However I dont think the old desert rat prospector viewed the Supes and desert with the danger that we do today. They were tougher and conditioned to it. We are soft.
EE
Sounds like youve got an interesting "place" figured out there. Wish you luck with it. I dont put to much faith in "the spoken clues". mainly because I dont know who really spoke them.
I didn't mean to make the "place" sound like a mystery. It's on the forum here.
And I doubt very much that I am the first one to have noticed it.
An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.
"On the third hand, there actually is a place, on a line between Weaver's Needle and Four Peaks, and at the edge of a five mile circle around Weaver's needle, where the Four Peaks are lined up to look like one, and Weaver's Needle can be seen from a hill, and there is a "rock face," as in the popular clues. Just a coincidence?"
There are only a few places, that I know of, where you will get that view. Actually, Four Peaks will never line up, exactly, as one. Where they come closest are Black Mountain, very close to Hal's location and Malapais. They would be staying inside the five miles from Weaver's Needle range.
Bluff Spring Mountain might be considered in the mix as well.
If there is another place that fits the bill closer, I would like to know where that might be.
Ralph - good to hear from you again - you planning on being out there again this year? I'm working out so I should hopefully be in much better shape and be able to actually do some serious hiking/exploring this year
You make a very good point about the Waltz/Starrar connection. Logic alone would certainly make one wonder why a man with access to significant gold would need to give up his land in order to have someone take care of him when he got older. I also wonder why a person with access to so much gold would supposedly on his deathbed tell Dick Holmes that if he found the mine to help out his sister - why couldn't he just have taken care of that himself shortly after he found the gold?
Joe - do you recall the talk Dr. Glover gave 2 or 3 years ago at the Rendezvous about Waltz and his land? I think he spoke about the Starrar connection as well, but for the life of me I don't remember too many of the specifics of his talk. Do you know if Thomas ever put together a written "report" that covered his talk?
I may have to get ahold of Greg this fall and see if he has an audio copy of that talk.
"There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)
Ralph - good to hear from you again - you planning on being out there again this year? I'm working out so I should hopefully be in much better shape and be able to actually do some serious hiking/exploring this year
You make a very good point about the Waltz/Starrar connection. Logic alone would certainly make one wonder why a man with access to significant gold would need to give up his land in order to have someone take care of him when he got older. I also wonder why a person with access to so much gold would supposedly on his deathbed tell Dick Holmes that if he found the mine to help out his sister - why couldn't he just have taken care of that himself shortly after he found the gold?
Joe - do you recall the talk Dr. Glover gave 2 or 3 years ago at the Rendezvous about Waltz and his land? I think he spoke about the Starrar connection as well, but for the life of me I don't remember too many of the specifics of his talk. Do you know if Thomas ever put together a written "report" that covered his talk?
I may have to get ahold of Greg this fall and see if he has an audio copy of that talk.
I remember it well, as Dr. Glover and I were in contact over the Waltz "Homestead" prior to the Rendezvous. The fact that Waltz's homestead was on "School Land", may have had some bearing on why Starrar did not honor their deal.
Thomas has said he will try and make this years Rendezvous, so it will be a great time to clarify any of the stories he researched and wrote about.
Ralph - good to hear from you again - you planning on being out there again this year? I'm working out so I should hopefully be in much better shape and be able to actually do some serious hiking/exploring this year
You make a very good point about the Waltz/Starrar connection. Logic alone would certainly make one wonder why a man with access to significant gold would need to give up his land in order to have someone take care of him when he got older. I also wonder why a person with access to so much gold would supposedly on his deathbed tell Dick Holmes that if he found the mine to help out his sister - why couldn't he just have taken care of that himself shortly after he found the gold?
Joe - do you recall the talk Dr. Glover gave 2 or 3 years ago at the Rendezvous about Waltz and his land? I think he spoke about the Starrar connection as well, but for the life of me I don't remember too many of the specifics of his talk. Do you know if Thomas ever put together a written "report" that covered his talk?
I may have to get ahold of Greg this fall and see if he has an audio copy of that talk.
I remember it well, as Dr. Glover and I were in contact over the Waltz "Homestead" prior to the Rendezvous. The fact that Waltz's homestead was on "School Land", may have had some bearing on why Starrar did not honor their deal.
Thomas has said he will try and make this years Rendezvous, so it will be a great time to clarify any of the stories he researched and wrote about.
Take care,
Joe
Aha - THAT'S what the focus of his talk was!! I knew it had something to do with his land/property, but my memory is so full of useless information I had forgotten it was the whole homestead/school land issue that was the crux of the story. I know the topic of the Starar's came up at some point, but it wasn't the focus. It would indeed be interesting to see what Thomas' take is on why a man with access to a rich gold mine would need someone else to take care of him in his old age.
"There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)
"On the third hand, there actually is a place, on a line between Weaver's Needle and Four Peaks, and at the edge of a five mile circle around Weaver's needle, where the Four Peaks are lined up to look like one, and Weaver's Needle can be seen from a hill, and there is a "rock face," as in the popular clues. Just a coincidence?"
There are only a few places, that I know of, where you will get that view. Actually, Four Peaks will never line up, exactly, as one. Where they come closest are Black Mountain, very close to Hal's location and Malapais. They would be staying inside the five miles from Weaver's Needle range.
Bluff Spring Mountain might be considered in the mix as well.
If there is another place that fits the bill closer, I would like to know where that might be.
Take care,
Joe
Well, here is a layout that I came up with.
Since Four Peaks isn't directly North of Weaver's Needle, some point on the yellow line would come closest to matching the description of the Four Peaks to the North, and Weaver's Needle to the South.
The yellow circle extends approximately five miles all around Weaver's Needle.
At the edge of the circle, from a hill, both the Needle and the Peaks can be seen. The alignment of the Peaks makes them appear as one. This is only one place that I know of where both can be seen from a hill, and the Peaks line up.
If you go West or East of the yellow line, the North and South directions become either more Northeast for the Peaks, or more Southwest for the Needle.
But maybe there is another spot which matches these "clues" better?
An evil group is comprised of the insane, who, out of fear, imagine that they must conspire to destroy those who are honest and able. A good group is made up of honest people, who could each survive on their own, yet work together openly for betterment for themselves and others.
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Originally Posted by Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
I'm still trying to figure out what my favorite clue is.
