YOUR FAVORITE CLUE/EVIDENCE

[cactusjumper]

Back on Sept. 26th. 2002 , when I had first started posting on the old LDM Forum, I started this topic. Don't know if we have done it here, but thought I would give it a try again. This was my post:

[What is your favorite piece of evidence, or clue? Do you consider it fairly reliable? If it is something that has not been in print, can you tell us what it is without disclosing it's location? I won't blink on this one. Twenty-five years ago, my Uncle Chuck, my Brother Phil and myself, backpacked into the mountains. I had figured out one of the maps and knew what to look for and where to look. We arrived at our camp location around noon. While Chuck set up camp, Phil, myself and my dog Juno went to find a trail or path up the side of the canyon to get to my search area. We found a likely ravine and decided to see how far we could get. It was not all that difficult to get to the top, although we had to hand the dog up in a lot of places. It ended up probably taking three hours or so to reach the top. We proceeded across the top of the ridge and walked directly into a six foot high stone monument. The hair on the back of my neck immediately stood up. I released the loop on my .45 All the stories of the killings of those who came close to the treasure were running thru my mind. It was where the map said it would be. It also was suppose to point out the next monument. As we approached the monument it had an obvious opening at eye level. I looked thru it and saw a small rounded hill in front of it. The map showed a curve from this monument to the next. We walked the curve around the hill and found the next monument. It was the same size without the sight opening. No other monument was in view. It was starting to get dark, we had overstayed our time. We walked to the edge of the ridge and looked into the canyon below, it was a long way to the canyon floor. We started to climb directly down in the dark. Chuck had built a large, white mans, fire to show us where the camp was. I would not want to repeat that descent. I have not been back to that monument since. It started to storm during the night and Chuck insisted we leave the next morning. I will now blink......]

As you all know, we looked for those monuments back in 2003-04 and found nothing. They had been destroyed completely. I searched the ridge on foot with my team, as well as from a helicopter very close to the surface.

They still remain my best find in the mountains with the heart a close second. Both the monuments and the heart were found using my drawing of the Stone Maps. They had been placed in their exact location on a topographic map before I ever made that trip in with Chuck and Phil.

Many will consider that might have been just coincidence, but I guess you just had to be there. They were exactly where I placed them on the map without ever being to the location.

So what's your favorite clue/evidence?

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Blindbowman]

good thread joe

my FAVORITE CLUE would have to be something clay worst says on the youtub clip he made .. he says
waltz told two diffrent stores .one was the story about him and wiser killing the miners , and the other was about the dick holmes account , or known by some as the bed side confession ..

i know now wich one of these are the truth ..and why . so one of these two would have to be my favorite clue ...

if someone learns everything they can about these two storys then they would also pick one of these as their favorite clue as well...

 

[Loke]

I do have a favourite clue - but, alas it's a negative one.
My 'clue' (as such) is Jim Bark - a contemporary (of Waltz) and in the middle of it all.
Yes - he was primarily a cattle-rancher but it didn't stop him from doing prospecting along Fish Creek ...
He had first-hand access to almost everything that happened - Dutch hunters were often visiting or passing by.
By his own admissions - he was also sincerely looking for the mine - at least whenever he was out checking on his cattle. If _he_ could not find it - then, what chance do we mere mortals have? Our information is 2nd or 3rd hand at best (I still vividly remember one of the games we used to play as youngsters - 7 or 8 or more all lined up and a sentence was whispered to the first - who in turn whispered whatever he/she heard to the next and so on and so forth until the last was reached - who had to recite what had he/she been told. 9 times out of 10 it was nothing like the original sentence - in spite of no attempts to willfully deceive. I believe we suffer from the same fate).

So, does the LDM exist? Yes, I think it does.
Has it been worked out/emptied? I believe that is a fair probability - alas. However, that wont stop me from looking!!

Per

 

[motell6]

Well Mr.Cactus, I read with interest your experience trying to locate the LDM many moons ago as the Apaches might tell the tale, and I believe you were close to the X location by some details in your story, however do realize I have never been to the Supermts but that does not dampen my desire to unravel the mystery location and I only have my map to help with that,and there very well may be important details missing. So to answer your last open question with at least 1 clue, I would say Military trail is a Diamond that is Glowing at the right time and place ,as in Mcannas Gold,my opinon only.

 

[EE THr]

My favorite LDM clue is, "To the North of my mine, you can see the Four Peaks as one; and from the hill above it, to the South you can see Weaver's Needle."

I don't think that is the exact wording, and some stories have it slightly different than others. And I'm not sure he is supposed to have said "Weaver's," but some stories indicate that's the one he meant.

What I like about it is that it puts the LDM somewhere in a line between Weaver's Needle and the Four Peaks, which narrows things down quite a bit.

My problem with it is that I wasn't there when Waltz said it. So, who knows if he really did?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe (*^%^#^## ) stop it, yer ruining my Reaves thingie.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

What is your favorite piece of evidence, or clue? Do you consider it fairly reliable? If it is something that has not been in print, can you tell us what it is without disclosing it's location?

The matchbox. Yes, I consider it reliable, for there would have been little good reason to create a fake item for personal use. The cross cut slice of ore used to adorn that matchbox gives us a peek at what the Jacob Waltz ore looks like, and what to look for. For those who dismiss the whole Dutchman legend as fantasy, the matchbox is a sticking point difficult to explain away. Unfortunately for the many different people who claim to have found the LDM, that matchbox stands as a major obstacle if their case is built on matching up clues, aerial photos, trails etc for the specimen should match ore from the mine. This makes it tough to garner honors without ore that matches.

This could be an interesting thread, lets see how long it takes before it is hijacked either by stone tablets or flame wars etc.
Oroblanco

 

[BILL96]

Everytime I see a picture of that matchbox I wonder how they they sliced the ore?. How thick do you think that slice is? I don't know much about slicing rocks but it seems like it would take a pretty fine blade to slice a thin slab like that. I wonder if there was much "waste", in any case it is a true work of art.

Bill

 

[EE THr]

Bill---

A 4" diameter "trim saw" blade is around .007" thick at the cutting edge.

The larger diameter slabbing blades run a little thicker as the size goes up.

When cutting small pieces of stuff like jade or turquoise, or gold bearing quartz, you do don't want to waste any of the material by using a thick blade.

 

[coazon de oro]

I may not get the words right but, "there's enough gold in sight to make millionaires out of twenty men". That's what motivates everyone. The evidence is the matchbox of course, and the ring on Bob Corbins finger.

I like all the clues really, " a miner will never find my mine", that eliminates a lot of the competition.

"A cowboy will never find my mine", I like a challenge.

"You can drive an Army pack train right over it, and not see it". The evidence, no one has "stumbled" over it, and no one will ever "stumble" over it. I don't know who composed this song, but it has been sung by just about everyone who has searched for decades.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

You realize, of course, that it's very unlikely that the gold in Bob's ring is from the LDM.....Right?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

I may not get the words right but, "there's enough gold in sight to make millionaires out of twenty men". That's what motivates everyone. The evidence is the matchbox of course, and the ring on Bob Corbins finger.

I like all the clues really, " a miner will never find my mine", that eliminates a lot of the competition.

"A cowboy will never find my mine", I like a challenge.

"You can drive an Army pack train right over it, and not see it". The evidence, no one has "stumbled" over it, and no one will ever "stumble" over it. I don't know who composed this song, but it has been sung by just about everyone who has searched for decades.

Homar P. Olivarez

i agree and there are reasons why no one has found it till me ..

i disagree with the person that stated everyone wants the gold ..

it has very little to do with GOLD and more to do with solveing the legend for me at least...

i told someone that my PPL profiling system could solve any equation .. i stand by my word and this will prove it once and for all ... i can only conferm the systems findings ....i have spent over 20 years building and testing my logic code and designing the system to profile logical sequences . no matter what equation it is solveing at the time .. if it can find the LDM,, it can find anything ..and did .lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Homar,

You realize, of course, that it's very unlikely that the gold in Bob's ring is from the LDM.....Right?

Take care,

Joe

Side question here Joe but if Bob's ring specimen does not come from the LDM, what does that indicate to you? Thank you in advance;
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

To me, it indicates that Bob was sold a bill of goods from someone he trusted. It's still possible that the ore came from the LDM but there is some doubt, where there used to be none.

Take care,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

You realize, of course, that it's very unlikely that the gold in Bob's ring is from the LDM.....Right?

Take care,

Joe

Yes, I had read about some doubts about it, but since I had seen some pictures of it on one of your rendezvous gathering, and as it was being presented as Lost Dutchman gold, I assumed the doubt had been cleared.

That's the reason I threw it in there. Now I don't know what to believe.

Homar

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

To me, it indicates that Bob was sold a bill of goods from someone he trusted. It's still possible that the ore came from the LDM but there is some doubt, where there used to be none.

Take care,

Joe

sorry i have to agree with joe on this one ... if there are sorces of LDM ore they will all match with in reason . or they are not LDM ore .. if the ring has been tested then we could see the test and know out right if it was or not and with this legend i have to agree with roy as well ore talks and bs walks ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

To me, it indicates that Bob was sold a bill of goods from someone he trusted. It's still possible that the ore came from the LDM but there is some doubt, where there used to be none.

Take care,

Joe

While I do not disagree with your point, it tells me something quite different, and positive. Of course to me, a rich gold mine is a rich gold mine regardless of what name is tacked onto it. Many folks however are so caught up in 'solving the mystery' that it is much more important to find the LDM and have it confirmed as the genuine mine of Waltz, that makes me wonder if one of these fellows were to discover a very rich gold mine, but it wasn't the LDM, would they be satisfied? I doubt it.

Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO de Tayopa, you are now a confirmed treasure hunter. When the chase is more valuable to you than the prize, you are a
treasure hunter.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

To me, it indicates that Bob was sold a bill of goods from someone he trusted. It's still possible that the ore came from the LDM but there is some doubt, where there used to be none.

Take care,

Joe

While I do not disagree with your point, it tells me something quite different, and positive. Of course to me, a rich gold mine is a rich gold mine regardless of what name is tacked onto it. Many folks however are so caught up in 'solving the mystery' that it is much more important to find the LDM and have it confirmed as the genuine mine of Waltz, that makes me wonder if one of these fellows were to discover a very rich gold mine, but it wasn't the LDM, would they be satisfied? I doubt it.

Roy

i dont know if i could have said it better my self and thats just what happend .. when i first saw it i had no idea it was the LDM .. but as i started to try to define what it was .. it was easy to see it was the LDM . but i define it as a Peralta mine . the MA mine also known as the maria jusus mine , some my have the idea this mine was once called the EL sombero mine or the Frenico mine, and one of any other half a dozen posable mines ..

i cant wait to see that debate on fold ... but a few things it is ,

the LDM
a pedro Peralta mine ,not just any old pedro mine the main mine of the tayopa complex .

i dont think any one here other then RT has given any real time to under standing what i was talking about when i was talking about the Tayopa mines being at these site ..

now he may question the factsa because he has his set of sites that do make sence to him .. but ..you got question what i have found and why it is what it is ..

if i am correct , i can point out where the Tayopa PA mine is ,and that my friends has not been seen from the 1646 date of the Tayopa letters so the question is not am i correct .. the question is it there ...

you can say its in mexico all you want but if they had consealed the real mine as i have stated they did . i found a set of mines very very old mines in the very same configeruration as tha tayopa complex .. now you can say a lot of things they could be till you see what i have seen ..

then your going to under stand why i stated its Tayopa ..

the topic says whats your favorite clue ..to what .. the LDM or the stones or the mines out there .?

but ROY has hit the nail right on the head .. it took all of 6 years to define what i have found and to map out the full scale of it ..9 sites .and i still have questions not answerd ...
but one thing is claer without any dout what so ever .. this is the Tayopa complex .. i have no idea if RT has a matching site or the other 9 sites .. i would have to beleive he has the other 9 sites .

but i have very little information on his site or mapping of them ...

all i can go by is what i have seen at my sites ...

one reason i have define these sites as Tayopa is a simple set of over all plains tot he sites ..

the configuration is mathimatical in nature and both share this pattern ...its not something you could fake ...

thew sequence that makes up the pattern is configuard of about 35 factors
all of these factors are at this sites in the correct orders ..

it cant be any thing else . now the question is how detailed is the Tayopa histoy ...

i saw maps that do not match these sites but do sound like they match RT's sites . but other maps match my site in full detail and with way to much detail to be any other location inclueing RT's sites..

i still beleive they had two sets of mines 9 in each set ..i have acount for 8 out of 9 at my locations

if i am correct RT's site are ether a decoy or are a set of the Tayopa mines and i cant see puting fake mines where RT is located .. so most likely he is setting on 9 of the tayopa mines , but this explains a lot of odd data about Tayopa

maybe it had nothing to do with if it existed . maybe the confussion started when the dirrections came into play .. wich dirrection went to what sites ..

if this is the case and i do beleive it is and do have evidence to prove it is the case then ..

it dose not matter . about the gold or who claims the mines .. the goverment is most likely going to step in and take control of them any way ...

but do you want to see if the Tayopa mines are at these sites ?

the Pa mine is almost imposable to find .. they coverd it up completely ..it was not even known or seen till 1959 ...i would not have known it was even there till i herd the 1959 story about the man falling in the whole and brakeing his leg ...and seeing the statue . that detail stands out in a mass of confussion as one detail that out right defines these sites as Tayopa ...i can tell you where he came from and how he got there and where the whole was he fell in ...why because he marked the site when he left it ...

 

[Blindbowman]

in fact i beleive the legends being right on top of each other played a roll in the mass confussion of the legends and what they were and where they were ..

look at the tunnle . one of the peralta was said to have started a tunnle . but 30 some odd years later the jesuits rename the same tunnle the tayopa mine tunnle ..they both try to intersect the hoya or mother load ....yet the tunnle is off set from the Ma mine and it runs down to a wash where the parmo placer was located ..i can change the names of the sites and tell the same configuration between all 3 legends ..

the fact is the Pedro Peralta mines (EL Sombero ). the Tayopa mines are the same set of mines and the LDM is one of them .. the MA or maria jesus mine or you can call it any one of half dozen well known mines but it wont change the fact

the lost Pedro Peralta mines were renamed by the jesuits as the Tayopa mines
waltz just killed the peralta and took the mine they were working at the time .. see if the peralta had known about the mines from family history no matter if the jesuits wanted to think they were theirs or not these are the Peralta lost mines ..renameing them tayopa or the LDM will not change that fact ..i realized this when i realized Waltz had described the paremo placer and the lay out of the peralta mines ...we know the story about how waltz got the mine was true in his will .. the other story may be some what true in details some how . but we may never know why he told two diffrent stories . but i can tell you the one he told in his will is correct .. thats why i question his citizen ship . because that will is 100% correct ...the details are garbled . but i know what they say and why ...

someone may have used waltz's name in cal. but waltz did not know it or did not beleive he was a citizen when he wrote the will .. now ask your self this .. if the will gave location directions in a grabled manner then the will was writtern before his death and it is not a acount told to dick holmes ..
that would be imposable under the under standing of what the will really is ..

i will try to explain it when i can ..

but waltz gives us a few diffrent discriptions and we only have to define wicxh are true and wich are not and if they are all true why dont they make logical sence to us ..

because we can not under stand how they are all true unless we see the mine for our self ..


i dont think i will find Gold ore in that mine .. i know i will and it will match the LDM ..

but that means how much when you realize the Tayopa is so close you can throw a rock and hit it ..even the chance this is the Tayopa Pa mine . is worth checking it out and seeing if i am correct ...

the Tayopa letter gave coded clues to find the Pa mine ..if i am correct the Peralta stones detail those same mines and i have been able to fill in the missing parts to locate 8 out of the 9 mines ...

5 of these mines are the Ma and Pa , the Paremo placer and the Hoya .. and the wagnor deposite.


lets see if i am correct .. before you judge what i am saying you should walk to the sites and let me explain why and where these mines are ...

if i could not stand there and point them all out one by one .. i would agree with all of you .. but the fact is i can and will ...