prospective

[Cubfan64]

Hi Joe - I misinterpretted your statement

For me, his opinion is enough. I would have preferred it was the real thing

to be a definitive statement rather than an opinion based on photographs. The only argument I was making is that forming a definitive and absolute statement about something from a photograph is tenuous at best.

Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I agree.

On the other hand, I am very familiar with Professor Smith's work, have a number of his books, and believe he is more than qualified to offer such an opinion, based on his experience in the field. I had given Brad my "unqualified" opinion, which is why I offered to pass the pictures along.

I am very often misunderstood, which must be my fault. Realizing that, I do make the extra effort to make my posts as clear as possible. So far, it's not working that well for me.

There were many things that followed that little play which made me realize that my friend was playing with less than a full deck. Brilliant man, much like bb, maybe too much.

See you soon.

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Wayne,

Brad and I were almost friends when he brought up his "find". With my unqualified eye, I pretty much pegged it from the start. I told Brad that I could present the picture to some well known archaeologist that I had made contact with in the past. He asked me to do that, and this was the results:
___________

Lazarus,

I have been a fan of ancient Mesoamerica for a number of years now.
In that time I have had more than a few questions, for which answers were varied and at odds. I had the good fortune to have a few of those questions answered by some well respected archaeologists.

[ASUgrad]

"But lets face it, if this is Spanish, and it really does look to be, then it is definately more than 150 years old, but not more than 500 years old."

This is the opinion of our "local" expert.

One of the people I sent your pictures to was, Dr. Michael E. Smith,
Professor of Anthropology, University at Albany. This was his response:

"This looks like a piece of modern junk made to fool tourists."

That's a strong comment from an archaeologist. In my dealings with them, they seldom make such definitive statements. There are good reasons for that. In archaeology, one turn of the spade can destroy what has been accepted fact for many years. They will usually leave themselves some "wiggle" room. You will notice he said "looks like", not "is".

For me, his opinion is enough. I would have preferred it was the real thing.

Respectfully,

Joe
_________________________

This was the beginning of the end for our friendship. Brad spent the next few years trying to prove me wrong on.......anything. The results of that is still to be found on the LDM Forum. I understand that, as it's the same thing I evoke in many people. I am just too sure of my conclusions.

Believe it has even turned you sideways a few times. Don't know how I can change my nature at this late date, but I consider you a friend and would hate to be at odds with you.

Take care,

Joe

your never going to find a hat that will streach that far ...lol

beside i think the detailing is not shadowed enought to be old at all .. look close at the markings you see a nice clean line edge where the lighter tooling was done . this has been cleaned in modern times or its out right fake ...see how smoth the black surface is then look at the lighter area ,,.. IMHO i would have to see this object up close . in this pic ture i beleive it is a fake ...

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I agree.

On the other hand, I am very familiar with Professor Smith's work, have a number of his books, and believe he is more than qualified to offer such an opinion, based on his experience in the field. I had given Brad my "unqualified" opinion, which is why I offered to pass the pictures along.

I am very often misunderstood, which must be my fault. Realizing that, I do make the extra effort to make my posts as clear as possible. So far, it's not working that well for me.

There were many things that followed that little play which made me realize that my friend was playing with less than a full deck. Brilliant man, much like bb, maybe too much.

See you soon.

Joe

On the red highlighted part above I would tend to agree with you .

I'll see you soon - things at work have gotten to the point where I NEED a vacation of some kind. In fact, the last few days, if I didn't have committments I'd probably sell everything I owned and make my trip to AZ permanent!

It's hard to complain about a job in this economy when so people wish they had one, but some days.... some days...

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

Seeing that you posted right after my last post, I decided to look in and see if your reply was pertinent.
For a change, it was.

"Your never going to find a hat that will streach that far ...lol"

That's very observant of you, as I do have a fairly large head. I prefer it that way, as I have read where the Doberman Pincher's small, narrow head causes restricted growth of the brain and the constant cranial pressure makes the dogs quite insane under moments of excitement or anger.

On the other hand, I find your comments on the "find" concise and well thought out.

Nice post,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

bb,

Seeing that you posted right after my last post, I decided to look in and see if your reply was pertinent.
For a change, it was.

"Your never going to find a hat that will streach that far ...lol"

That's very observant of you, as I do have a fairly large head. I prefer it that way, as I have read where the Doberman Pincher's small, narrow head causes restricted growth of the brain and the constant cranial pressure makes the dogs quite insane under moments of excitement or anger.

On the other hand, I find your comments on the "find" concise and well thought out.

Nice post,

Joe

dont feel bad i have the same problem ...lol

custom hats that big cost to much ...lol

i just dont by the object is that old . for a few reason . the coloring is not multi colors and we often see staining and clay tarnishing some other colors .. it just dose not look like its that old and if it is . some destored it with one of the worst cleaning jobs i ever saw ..
look at the botton where the tool slips of the edge .. that a clear sign to me its bad cleaning or even worse bad tooling ..
the over all frist appearnce is stricking but its flat backed why ..? and made to stand up right .. that you just dont see in real old objects that much .. they set on there own but not designed to set on there own flat to something else .. they just would not have made it like that IMHO ...if you take away the over sight ., the tooling dose not fit the ageing of the peice . IMHO .. i could be wrong with out seeing the peice close up .. but i dont think so by what i am see in this picture

 

[somehiker]

It's always hard to judge an artifact by photograph alone,but I would guess west coast,possibly Salish or Alaskan Inuit.Both soapstone and jadeite carvings are common,many more than 400 yrs old,with similar patina and colouring of the incised areas.The rounded face,eye shape and facial hair is similar,and the "seal" motive seems to also point in the same direction.Original artifact or reproduction by some native artist....who knows?
It is possible that Brad did find it in the mine.If a native of the coast happened to be employed at the mine at some time in the past,perhaps he may have carried it for luck or as a memento of some sort,and simply lost it while working. I haven't the time to search for links,but from memory I believe that such fetish carvings often featured human and animal forms intertwined in various ways.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Blindbowman]

It's always hard to judge an artifact by photograph alone,but I would guess west coast,possibly Salish or Alaskan Inuit.Both soapstone and jadeite carvings are common,many more than 400 yrs old,with similar patina and colouring of the incised areas.The rounded face,eye shape and facial hair is similar,and the "seal" motive seems to also point in the same direction.Original artifact or reproduction by some native artist....who knows?
It is possible that Brad did find it in the mine.If a native of the coast happened to be employed at the mine at some time in the past,perhaps he may have carried it for luck or as a memento of some sort,and simply lost it while working. I haven't the time to search for links,but from memory I believe that such fetish carvings often featured human and animal forms intertwined in various ways.

Regards:Wayne

i was also thinking Alaskan or eskamo native tribes . and that dose make logical sence . some people that went to the yukon also came south after the gold rush and when other gold was found in calf,. and other gold strikes... so that could explain why it was there ...if the lighter color area is where they tryed to clean the object they destoried this find by not knowing how to clean it the right way .. a lot of natives of the yukons area traded their work and food for more modern tools .

 

[somehiker]

BB:
The difference in colour is due to the lighter areas being un-polished,
a characteristic common to this and many other many kinds of sculpture,
rather than being due to how the art was cleaned in this case.
As such,it would have no bearing on a fake vs real determination.
A sig on the bottom or back surface would,however.
As would,for me, the fact that both base and back surfaces are flat on the same piece of sculpture.


Regards:SH.

 

[EE THr]

Did either Flatheads or Inuits have beards?

And what what's up with that headdress?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

somehiker: Your post brought back a memory of another series of posts sent to me by a LDM searcher. I don't remember all of the details, or when, but he had a friend that had studied a small mound in the superstitions for some time, then decided that it was the left over dirt from an excavation.

He, and his friends then dug, and indeed, it was covering a shaft, then a tunnel and another shaft which ended up at a 1/2 buried wooden door.

Apparently they had a hard time getting enough air, and debris falling down the shaft injured one of his friends.

Somehow the gov't became involved, complete with black helicopters, etc, and he was not allowed to go back to his find.

But before the gov't was through an FBI friend that was in the gov't program, showed him several objects that they had recovered, which were from the NW of the US, Washington or Alaska. A seal, a whale ? and other figures carved in the Inuit style.

My friend, not the one that had discovered the tunnel system, sent me several photographs of the items that the gov't had recovered asking my opinion of them..

He also said that they had found an Aztec? face carved on the ceiling of the tunnel?

He said there was another mound, but he refused to show it to the gov't nor has he excavated it.

Just rumors and vague recollections from some 10 years ago, but who knows?

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. At that time he was financing Ron Eagle.

 

[somehiker]

Did either Flatheads or Inuits have beards?

And what what's up with that headdress?

EE:
Coast Salish,different people and culture than the Flathead Salish Tribe.
Both Inuit and Coast Salish men wore beards.
http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/stories/meltdown/ba9305-20.htm

 

[somehiker]

Don Jose:
I have read a couple of stories with elements similar to what you describe.One,as I recall,also included a spiral "staircase" descending downward and a "throne room" of some kind.Another includes a near vertical shaft,from which a wind blows,strong enough to take the hat from your head.Takes a windy day though,I would think,and that one may have steps cut into the rock as well.
Who knows? There are so many hard to reach places and so many holes out there to explore.
Black helicopters? I have yet to see any,although I have probably seen a few of other colours every day I have been out there.
Military,Sheriffs Dept.,News,Medivac,SAR,civilian and even a SRP Huey doing a very slow and low level inspection of the power lines.
At times it can be aggravating.

Regards:SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening somehiker: they probably all are of different versions of 'a' happening, real or imagined, sigh .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Don Jose:
I have read a couple of stories with elements similar to what you describe.One,as I recall,also included a spiral "staircase" descending downward and a "throne room" of some kind.Another includes a near vertical shaft,from which a wind blows,strong enough to take the hat from your head.Takes a windy day though,I would think,and that one may have steps cut into the rock as well.
Who knows? There are so many hard to reach places and so many holes out there to explore.
Black helicopters? I have yet to see any,although I have probably seen a few of other colours every day I have been out there.
Military,Sheriffs Dept.,News,Medivac,SAR,civilian and even a SRP Huey doing a very slow and low level inspection of the power lines.
At times it can be aggravating.

Regards:SH.

There is one associated with the Superstition Mountains that sounds like that.

 

[Cubfan64]

Did either Flatheads or Inuits have beards?

And what what's up with that headdress?

EE:
Coast Salish,different people and culture than the Flathead Salish Tribe.
Both Inuit and Coast Salish men wore beards.
http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/stories/meltdown/ba9305-20.htm

Ok - is it just me, or have those of you who've been to the Rendezvous notice a striking similarity between the picture Somehiker posted and a certain Mr. Schoose?

 

[somehiker]

Did either Flatheads or Inuits have beards?

And what what's up with that headdress?

EE:
Coast Salish,different people and culture than the Flathead Salish Tribe.
Both Inuit and Coast Salish men wore beards.
http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/stories/meltdown/ba9305-20.htm

Ok - is it just me, or have those of you who've been to the Rendezvous notice a striking similarity between the picture Somehiker posted and a certain Mr. Schoose?

You must mean Tatigat,the one in the link....
Yes he does

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

I believe your stories come from a man called Alin Tree Horvaka. He talked about a cave with a horizontal component, and a staircase down in a narrow, oxygen deprived tunnel. At the bottom Alin said it sounded hollow, like someone had put boards down and filled it over with dirt. You would need a compressor or scott pack to supply air at this site.

Another story was of a cave with spiral stairs. There was a tunnel with Mayan faces carved overhead. There was a massive cave there. The Apache told Alin he could enter the tunnels, but he must give them one item. They said he would know it when he saw it. It was described as about the size of a volleyball or basketball. Alin believed it was another crystal skull.

The man who told me the above things, was an old friend of Alin's who was looking for anyone who might know where he might be. This was back in 2007. Here is something I dug up through my own research:

The Horvaka's, father and son, took lessons from an instructor who was working out of Maya Riviera, Mexico. The father took the first lessons a year before his son came down with him for his instructions. Quit a coincidence, cave diving, because some of the caves in the Superstitions may be underwater in Roosevelt Lake.

The instructor found many Mayan carvings in the caves that he did his diving in. That matches up a little to closely with the Mayan "faces in the cave" in the Superstitions.

I think Roy may have given me the source for Alin's stories.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

Did either Flatheads or Inuits have beards?

And what what's up with that headdress?

EE:
Coast Salish,different people and culture than the Flathead Salish Tribe.
Both Inuit and Coast Salish men wore beards.
http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/stories/meltdown/ba9305-20.htm

I had no idea they had beards.

The headdress on the carving doesn't look like the standard hoodie. I think you mentioned a seal on top? But the sides, with the diagonal lines looks different than the picture in the link you provided. Have you ever seen anything like that? Or know anything about it?

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
True or not,the stories I've read are certainly interesting.The Mayan faces you mention sound similar to carvings I've previously posted photos of.
There is no shortage of caves,some quite large,in the mountains.The best ones are several hours off trail.
Some,I have only partly checked out,but what I saw was enough to make me want to go further.
I expect to be in and out of a couple that I know about during this trip,and will have the necessary gear along....I hope.
One at least,could be described as massive.
I won't have a Scott Pack along,so I'll have to be extra cautious.

Regards:Wayne