The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[somehiker]

Howdy Wayne,

I don't believe PegLeg had any treasure maps from the Superstitions. J. Frank Dobie would have written about it. What treasures PegLeg did search were here in Texas. One was in the Espantosa Lake, and an other was in the Olmos Ranch on Estambel Hill. The one on the Olmos Ranch was just one of at least three different versions of the Rock Pens treasure that consists of Church items along with 61 jackloads of silver bars. I believe this is where Bob and Travis got the idea that the PSM's lead to Church treasure.
Travis's ignorance of the Spanish language led him to believe that the misspelled word of "coazon", may have meant "cajon", or box.
The so called ground map can only be Travis's interpretation of the PSM's.

Homar

We know from Dobie's writings that PegLeg had a collection of maps and "waybills", some of which were said to have been burned in an accident. We also know from Dobie's book, that PegLeg searched for what was thought to be in Texas....closer to home base. I've only speculated that it may have been one of PL's papers....map or document...which led Travis to believe in and begin his search for a "treasure" at the southern end of the Superstitions in Arizona, rather than an unplanned stop along US 60 as claimed.

 

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[Silverchair]

We know from Dobie's writings that PegLeg had a collection of maps and "waybills", some of which were said to have been burned in an accident. We also know from Dobie's book, that PegLeg searched for what was thought to be in Texas....closer to home base. I've only speculated that it may have been one of PL's papers....map or document...which led Travis to believe in and begin his search for a "treasure" at the southern end of the Superstitions in Arizona, rather than an unplanned stop along US 60 as claimed.

Let me Finnish the story for you Somehiker.

He stopped and found the Maps end of story. Yeah

Silver Chair

 

[Old]

Gentlemen, your observations are indeed interesting.
I can add but little.

Personally I believe the term “5th stone” is a misnomer. I use the term here because all know what I’m talking about. But I cringe every time I use the term. If we go back to the term I cling to “prototype”, what I refer to a 5th stone many well be the only original stone of the map series (but not perhaps the only stone in the whole puzzle). These are my thoughts and conclusions and may or may not be shared by the group as a whole.

I take nothing away from Robert Garman as a dedicated and perhaps successful explorer. Where I have differing opinions is his level of direct communication with Travis. Certainly he had many conversations with Bob Tumlinson. Many people did. Garman was thoroughly confused as to Travis’ life, history, military status, and all manner of other discrepancies. He was unable to recognize Travis’ photo and changed his description of him many times in the various editions of his book. I am unsure if that confusion wasn’t purposeful on Bob T.’s behalf. Remember there was a bitter rift between Bob and Travis at this point in time.

I am not unmindful that Frank holds fast to his photographic evidence of a Travis/Garman connection. I believe that connection is with Bob and Travis’ younger brother, which younger brother most closely fits the description and background related by Garman in his writing. Photograph below, Travis to the left. I look forward to being shown differently. Frank could be right, I’m open to that, just skeptical. Again, its just an interesting point and in the long run matters little in understanding the message of the PSMs.

No Homar, Colorado is not the base of our primary Church connection. Although begun in the continental US, it has become global in scope with the help and assistance of those directly involved. Photographs, videos and the substance of much dialog, some of which you have seen others not, have been flown to the Vatican where it was reviewed by top experts in their field. As shared with us, in their opinion the symbology (that may not be a real word) is indeed Jesuit in origin and in keeping with the methodology of communication at the time.

 

[Old]

As a post script to my earlier post.

Once we tire of this discussion, I believe a fuller discussion of the Queen Creek "find" location(s) would be revealing.

 

[Silverchair]

Gentlemen, your observations are indeed interesting.
I can add but little.

Personally I believe the term “5th stone” is a misnomer. I use the term here because all know what I’m talking about. But I cringe every time I use the term. If we go back to the term I cling to “prototype”, what I refer to a 5th stone many well be the only original stone of the map series (but not perhaps the only stone in the whole puzzle). These are my thoughts and conclusions and may or may not be shared by the group as a whole.

I take nothing away from Robert Garman as a dedicated and perhaps successful explorer. Where I have differing opinions is his level of direct communication with Travis. Certainly he had many conversations with Bob Tumlinson. Many people did. Garman was thoroughly confused as to Travis’ life, history, military status, and all manner of other discrepancies. He was unable to recognize Travis’ photo and changed his description of him many times in the various editions of his book. I am unsure if that confusion wasn’t purposeful on Bob T.’s behalf. Remember there was a bitter rift between Bob and Travis at this point in time.

I am not unmindful that Frank holds fast to his photographic evidence of a Travis/Garman connection. I believe that connection is with Bob and Travis’ younger brother, which younger brother most closely fits the description and background related by Garman in his writing. Photograph below, Travis to the left. I look forward to being shown differently. Frank could be right, I’m open to that, just skeptical. Again, its just an interesting point and in the long run matters little in understanding the message of the PSMs.

No Homar, Colorado is not the base of our primary Church connection. Although begun in the continental US, it has become global in scope with the help and assistance of those directly involved. Photographs, videos and the substance of much dialog, some of which you have seen others not, have been flown to the Vatican where it was reviewed by top experts in their field. As shared with us, in their opinion the symbology (that may not be a real word) is indeed Jesuit in origin and in keeping with the methodology of communication at the time.

View attachment 1505558

Well I saved a considerable amount of money there, I knew all this without going to the Vactian.
So what your saying is we're all matching skills with the most skilled.

Tell'em Bring it on, There no Daisy

Silver Chair

And there's know symbol that represents to box Treasures.

 

[azdave35]

Well I saved a considerable amount of money there, I knew all this without going to the Vactian.
So what your saying is we're all matching skills with the most skilled.

Tell'em Bring it on, There no Daisy

Silver Chair

And there's know symbol that represents to box Treasures.

mick?

 

[sgtfda]

Howdy deducer,

In an other fourm concerning Rojas Silver Bell, (pg. 8) Jim Hatt tells Mike that it was Charlie Miller who found the LH.

I am with Somehiker, and believe that it may have been Bob Tumlinsons creation. I believe Garman mentioned Bob T. going back and finding a fifth stone. I could be wrong, but it was Bob T. who was trying to profit from Garman, and when Elgin Kriewald said there may be a fifth stone, and that it may be heart shaped, Bob may have obliged. Peck is said to have recieved a sketch of a fifth stone that was in Portland, Oregon.

In a 4-12-65 letter from Love to Peck, Bob Tumlinson claimed to have the fifth stone. He later denied that there was one.

Homar

The Garman stone is the fifth stone Homar. You have the story. Except how Garman obtained it.

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar:
I don't recal ever suspecting or suggesting that it was Robert T. who created the fifth stone. And , although I'm fast running out of time this morning, it was actually Love saying he was convinced that old Bob had the fifth stone, due to his insistence that the treasure was out in the desert somewhere. Don't forget, the fifth stone was initially said...in the Peck letters...to have featured the face or head of an indian with two lines across it's mouth. Later, after one of TT's friends said the Iindian head stone was found north of the Columbia River, that description was dropped. Personally, I think the fifth stone quest might have been for the Latin Heart, of which rumors had begun to spread. If Peck had a sketch...Greg probably has at least a copy of it.

Howdy Wayne,

You are correct that you did not suspect Bob of creating the Latin Heart. What you suspected was Charlie Miller, and Bob finding the Latin Heart. It is I that takes it a step further, suspecting Bob as the creator. I will bring up that old thread.[h=2]Re: Tumlinson Profile[/h]

Hal:
Considering the chronology mostly true,only two hearts have been found.The primary Heart Stone (reddish in colour),found buried under the two Trail stones by Travis Tumlinson,and the Latin Heart (black in colour),found laying on the ground some distance from where the other four stones were buried, by two others searching a larger area at a later date.
The Latin Heart is what has been referred to in the Brower/Love/Kriewald to Peck correspondence as the fifth stone or map.
I suspect,based on examination of various accounts,that it was Charlie Miller and Robert Tumlinson (Uncle Bob) who found the Latin Heart.
Here are some excerpts from the letters published on Garry's website which mention the "fifth" stone.

Regards:SH.

PS: I know that you are searching for evidence of Masonic involvement in the Stone Maps,but have you considered the possibility of a group of corrupt officials and officers within the Spanish Government and Military (during the Spanish Colonial Period) being responsible for the maps as well as any treasure they may lead to ?​

Attached Thumbnails

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Lynda,

Other than the crosses, could you tell us what other symbol on the PSM's may be Jesuit? Are the Jesuit symbols found on other maps or stones other than the PSM's?

Homar

 

[markmar]

It is at any rate, a fascinating puzzle. There's no dearth of things to discuss or analysis, and I think that's one of my favorite parts about those Stone Maps, other than the objective, of course.

Yes , is a fascinating puzzle . My favorite , I can say .
IMO , the Latin stone heart and the CP map , are the only maps which have a hidden message .
The Latin heart reveals the landmarks used on the " hands " of the stone cross map , with the words " CAVERNA AURUM " and " TRANSEO ECCLESIA " to be written up side down in regards with the other words on the map . Of course for the " TRANSEO ECCLESIA " to take in consideration where you go from the church .
For the CP map message , I keep it secret because what would reveals , would make a connection with a clue from other known stories/maps .

.

 

[Old]

>>>>Other than the crosses, could you tell us what other symbol on the PSM's may be Jesuit? Are the Jesuit symbols found on other maps or stones other than the PSM's?
Homar>>>

There are several on the PSMs and more on other documents,"the 5th stone", and site specific representations on the ground which unfortunately you have not seen. Its the totality that is compelling.

Crosses, definitely. Of the ones you have on hand, the horse and depiction of the priest are descriptive, the heart(s), as well as the various astrological references throughout. We have talked about those for years with varying opinions.

Just for clarification; do you doubt my truthfulness or the abilities of the Vatican? Just trying to understand where you coming from in your question.

 

[coazon de oro]

The Garman stone is the fifth stone Homar. You have the story. Except how Garman obtained it.

Howdy Frank,

Garman never knew where that stone came from, and it is not a part of the PSM's. It was not found anywhere near the PSM's either. One day I will tell you all about that stone.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Frank,

Garman never knew where that stone came from, and it is not a part of the PSM's. It was not found anywhere near the PSM's either. One day I will tell you all about that stone.

Homar

whats wrong with right now?

 

[Old]

Just to be crystal clear.........Frank's 5th stone and my discussion of a "5th stone" are two completely different things.

 

[Shortfinger]

whats wrong with right now?

I would like to hear about it, also.......

JB

 

[cactusjumper]

Just so you all know, Garman had nothing to do with this stone:



It was not found.....anywhere. It was created as an example of how easy it is to create a stone map. The picture was taken here, leaning against my copy of Tom Kollenborn's book. Do you all think it has some meaning in relation to the Stone Maps?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

>>>>Other than the crosses, could you tell us what other symbol on the PSM's may be Jesuit? Are the Jesuit symbols found on other maps or stones other than the PSM's?
Homar>>>

There are several on the PSMs and more on other documents,"the 5th stone", and site specific representations on the ground which unfortunately you have not seen. Its the totality that is compelling.

Crosses, definitely. Of the ones you have on hand, the horse and depiction of the priest are descriptive, the heart(s), as well as the various astrological references throughout. We have talked about those for years with varying opinions.

Just for clarification; do you doubt my truthfulness or the abilities of the Vatican? Just trying to understand where you coming from in your question.

Howdy Lynda,

The only document that goes with the PSM's is what Travis wrote about them.

In his writings he stated that the PSM's represent a map of an area in the Superstitions, and he was right about that. Since it cost Ryan a pretty penny to aquire Travis's writings, and upon seeing all that the Tumlinsons had, he twisted Travis words. Ryan claims that Travis was saying that the PSM's were created as copies of a map that the Tumlinsons had gotten from PegLeg. Travis never stated that they were copies. The ground map can only be Travis's interpretation of the PSM's. Travis like any other treasure hunter, gathered stuff to try and solve the stones, those star charts are part of it. Anyone who knows how to read, can see that Travis never claims the PSM's to be copied from an other map. I challenge Ryan to post that again for everyone to make up their own mind. He claims to be after the truth after all.

There is no fifth stone to the PSM's, on the Priest stone, it show 1 for the P/H stone, 2,3 for the trail stones, and 4 for the heart stone. Show me with out assumptions how a fifth stone is missing. I don't doubt your truthfulness, you are inocent. I don't doubt the whole Vatican's ablilities, just the ones making the claims of knowing what the symbols on the PSM's represent.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

whats wrong with right now?

Don't want to make Joe look like a fool just yet.

All in due time, I have a gag order on myself.

 

[markmar]

Homar


Do you believe the stone trail heart should be considered as a separate stone map and not as part of the trail map ?

 

[deducer]

Crosses, definitely. Of the ones you have on hand, the horse and depiction of the priest are descriptive, the heart(s), as well as the various astrological references throughout. We have talked about those for years with varying opinions.

Would you mind elaborating on what exactly about either the horse or "depiction of the priest" makes the Stone Maps indisputably Jesuit in origin?

Also not sure I understand the relationship between "astrological references" and the Jesuits.