The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

Do you think the Peralta stone maps are genuine, or fake?


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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Greetings Gollum, Tropical Tramp and everyone,
Gollum wrote:
Hey Oro,

You're just going to have to quote the spot where Tom K calls the stones a cruel hoax. I just went through every page on that website, and couldn't find it.

Now Mike, did you not read my earlier post? I already did quote the spot - it is on the page that I already posted the link to, maybe this will jog your memory:

Now you have said that you respect Tom Kollenborn. Why not read what HE put on HIS website then, as I posted the link to it here earlier? Remember I said this in post 159, “PS - Mike, Tom Kollenborn believes the Peralta stones are a cruel hoax. Check out his site:

http://www.superstitionmountainmuseum.org/LostDutchmanExhibit.htm

If you don’t have the time or inclination to go and read it for yourself, here is what Tom put on his website, quote
“Bicknell may have had the earliest impact on the legend itself, but Barry Storm embellished all works he found on the Dutchman, the Peraltas or Jesuits. His work impacted the thinking of more contemporary prospectors than any other individual except for the man who perpetrated the infamous Peralta Stone Maps.End quote

Near the top of the page, you will see that it reads : History Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society
Now the site is not written as if it is a verbal quote out of the mouth of Tom K. but does certainly say a strong view on the veracity of the stones and DOES carry Tom K's name near the top of the page as one of the persons responsible for the content. If the content was in opposition to his views, it seems that he would have changed the text, he certainly had that within his power. Like I said before, you can sure write to Tom privately and perhaps he does not agree (in private) with what he put on this web site.

You quote Bob Corbin telling how the FBI lab tested the stones, and note carefully what even Bob said
"He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.
"

You wrote "The FBI Tests came back that the inscriptions were AT LEAST 100 years old."

They BELIEVED the stones were at least 100 years old, but you seem to have made that jump from A to B to Z again when we ought to have stopped on B, taking a statement that they believed the age to the absolute statement "..WERE at least 100 years old". Really now Mike, you have a logical mind (if a bit optimistic) does that sound like absolute proof to you, or yet another OPINION being stated? Bob is welcome to believe in the stone "maps" and it does not diminish my view of him, yet they continue to strike me as just too unlikely, too far fetched, too much too good to be true.

You mentioned earlier how you were the only one providing "proofs" to prove the stones were valid - well just how would you prove something false, something that doesn't exist? It is like trying to prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist, well there are all kinds of "proof" that he is very real, even a medeival saint by the name of Nicholas, yet it just isn't real. I asked you earlier but you did not answer the question but why on earth would the Peraltas, assuming they had one or a whole group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions, have bothered to carve mysterious maps into four STONES, rather than on a leather that could be readily rolled up and carried, or paper, or wood, etc the idea of portable STONE maps of this size are bordering on the ridiculous. Does this make them impossible, NO but it sure makes them UNLIKELY. You mentioned the Mexican revolution against the Spanish for a reason why they would not have denounced the claims in the Superstitions, yet look at the timeline -the revolution was pretty well OVER by 1847, since it ended in 1821. In fact during the revolution the Peraltas were actively working a silver mine, so show no real fear of the tax but instead show that they were law abiding citizens; not furtive, secretive people who had a record of sneaking into the wilds and refusing to file legal claims on the mineral finds so as to avoid paying the taxes etc. Does that mean it is impossible the group of Peralta mines in the Superstitions could have existed, no, but it does make it unlikely based on known behavior of known Peraltas.

Now you ask if Pimas would have been mining? Have you been researching southwest history, and not have made note of how many times Pimas, Papagos, Navajos etc were mining? Pimas were one of the large tribes which were assimilated to a degree by the Spanish and later Mexicans, were working cattle and sheep ranches, working MINES too. They were what you might call "civilized" or perhaps better "westernized". You must also know that other tribes in the southwest had and operated their OWN mines, including Mayos,Opatas, and others. As to why a skeleton might have been fully clothed - that only shows that the killers did not strip that particular body. Perhaps that person put up a better fight or was a known enemy so earned some respect to them. Then too, remember what the normal dress WAS for a Pima Indian - they were not like their wild cousins running around in the wilds dressed in nothing but a breechclout and moccasins, but wore full clothing very similar to Europeans. In fact take a look at old photos of Apaches, Pimas, and other tribes and you will see they were not quite like the wild three-quarters-naked Indians we see in the old Hollywood westerns but look almost like Mexicans, right down to the wearing of Sombreros for some.

You want to keep returning to Edwards story, yet seem to dismiss out of hand the very words of it - I will point out the section again, read it out loud and see how that sounds to you - if that makes it seem like the skeletons were in fact Peraltas or a group of unlucky Pimas:
"Trooper Green took the remains to be those of Pima Indians who had died at the hands of their hereditary enemy, the Apache. The lieutenant agreed with Green, especially as there were no large group of Anglos reported missing or unaccounted for in the territory."
Now does THAT sound like it must be a group of Peraltas, coming or going to a group of rich gold mines, much less mines in the Superstitions? You choose to take the opinion (yes OPINION) of Edwards over that of Green and the un-named lieutenant, plus the fact that no large group of missing Anglos had been reported in the area. You might choose Edwards opinion over that of Trooper Green since Edwards was a sergeant, but the other opinion was that of a person who outranked Edwards. Shouldn't that tilt the balance for you, the fact that a higher ranking officer was of the opinion the remains were Pimas, rather than Europeans, if not perhaps the fact that a 'democratic' method of deciding we can add up the 'votes' and find that of the three persons who were on the spot looking at the remains, TWO out of THREE were of the opinion that the remains were Pimas. We have to work with opinions in this story because that is all we have to work with. Why do you dismiss the views of Trooper Green and the Lieutenant in favor of Edwards? I don't get that logic on your part. I read the same report and it certainly seems to be solid evidence AGAINST the massacre victims being a group of Mexicans under Peraltas, let alone that the group was coming or going to a group of secret gold mines located IN the Superstitions.

Now one person can sure be right while a majority of others are in disagreement, we need only look at Schliemann and mythical Troy to find an extreme example of this, and it is reassuring to all of us that simply because your idea is in opposition to others does not mean you are wrong. This is the case here too - those stones could be maps to secret lost gold mines in the Superstitions that belonged to Peraltas, it is not possible (without a confession) to PROVE that they are not - however as optimistic as I try to be with tales of lost mines and buried treasures, I also try to keep at least one foot on the ground and have to ask if it has the "ring of truth" to any tale, any bit of evidence. In the case of these so-called Peralta stone "maps" the whole deal just does not "ring true" FOR ME. I do put some credence in the opinions of experts, but as I said earlier, opinions of experts can be wrong, can be biased; they are after all HUMAN BEINGS and we human beings are all-too-full of hidden faults, hidden bias, hidden agendas that are not readily apparent on the surface. When we are examining such a controversial artifact as these stone maps, it would be tough to find an expert who holds absolutely NO bias towards them, either pro or con, especially when we are talking abou experts who ARE ALSO HUNTING THE LOST DUTCHMAN and/or Peralta mines. I trust that you are also taking this fact into account? You must be well aware of the many fakes in the world of stone inscriptions! Some are even better and more convincing than these Peralta stones, like the King Solomon Tablet, which did not actually name Solomon but king Hezekiah and managed to fool some of the best experts in the field of Biblical archaeology, yet were eventually PROVEN to be fakes. Let me ask you yet another hypothetical question, if you come down as solidly believing this strange group of stones to be real ( I note that you have carefully avoided doing that in exact words) and go on the public record saying so, which Bob Corbin has done, how will you feel if it is later proven that they are false? If that will bother you a great deal to be 'made a public fool' by a good fraud, then you are wise to keep saying that you are not totally convinced they are genuine. Based on your arguments in your posts, you show a tendency to dismiss anything which could cast doubt (like the statement of Father Polzer, based solely on the fact that someone else has a grudge against him and that he is a Jesuit? Doesn't that strike you as being strongly BIASED? Jesuit fathers are educated men, not some dimwit who didn't finish eighth grade, and are men of God - that does not make them angels they are still human beings. More on this point below.) I will go out on a limb here, and it won't bother me a whit to be made a fool if proven wrong (heck like I said, I have my own tinfoil hat and have published some far-fetched theories) and state my own conclusions on the validity of these stones in a public venue - you are sure free to record this so as to be able to rub my nose in it if or when the stones are proven real:

I am convinced, based on all the evidence I have seen and compared with the probabilities of each part of the story which must go along with them, that the so-called Peralta stone maps are frauds, created with the intention of fooling people.
signed Roy A. Decker 9-10-2006

In fact the look of the stones strike me as even a bit amateurish. You are free to quote my statement above
This does not automatically make them frauds, and it is possible they are real. No matter how much we may debate these stones, you have already stated that only absolute tests proving the stones were NOT the right AGE would convince you that the stones were frauds, well not to raise yet another issue here but you do realize that even if the stones could be precisely dated to the year inscribed on them (impossible with current technology and science, unless they had been found in situ with other items which could be carbon-dated, and unfortunately carbon dating while excellent is also not perfect and can only give a RANGE of years, though a find of pottery and coins plus human remains right alongside the stones would have helped immensely) even that would NOT absolutely guarantee that the stones are genuine, for the making of fakes has a very long history. So since you have stated that you cannot be swayed except by tests which are not possible for either of us to do (I do not have the stones in my possession) why are we continuing? Are you trying to sway little old ME to believe in the validity of these stones, if so I have already posted that it will take the actual finding of one of those legendary mines AND finding one (or more) THROUGH THE USE OF THE MAPS. I can also assure you that MY opinion carries little weight around here, not enough to justify your spending many hours to convince me. I will sure take your word for it, if for instance YOU were to go up into the Superstitions and used the maps (or rather photos of them) to find one of those legendary mines, if you say you used the maps to find it I will believe you. I will need to see some solid evidence of the mine, you don't have to take me to the spot (being wilderness means it is closed to mineral entry so none of us can file a mining claim on it, but you CAN go in with no motorized equipment and hand work out some ore) - however for us to continue to debate these stones seems rather pointless since both of us have already expressed that it will take more evidence to prove the case for either of us. Are we debating this for the sake of the other readers entertainment? If so, I will be happy to oblige, but I cannot provide absolute evidence that they are frauds - we are forced to make our own individual opinions as to whether they are genuine or not, almost like a religious faith issue, and in this sort of case where it cannot be proven I choose to rely on my own logic as a yardstick of whether a thing or tale has a ring of truth. If it seems illogical to me, I have to conclude the item or tale is most likely false, if it seems logical then I swing the other way to most likely true. It is not possible to prove these things beyond all doubt either way with the means at our disposal here.

You dismissed the view of Father Polzer based on the fact that he was a Jesuit and someone on Desert USA cast aspersions on him. You pointed out that the Jesuits still believe they own treasures in the Americas. How exactly are the Jesuits tied in to the legend of Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions in ANY way? I have never found any tie-in to the Jesuits with ANY mines in the Superstitions, so why are you making the connection between a Jesuit bias (for the greed of treasures) towards legendary mines which they were never associated with? That looks like a personal bias on your part, now heck we are all human beings and all have personal biases, but when trying to establish the facts on a questionable, controversial artifact, we ought to TRY to control those biases. It also looks like you have taken the leap from A to B to Z in connecting the Jesuits to the legendary Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions. Now being an optimist is a good thing, optimists tend to try to see the good in everything, while pessimists have the advantage of never being disappointed, but when researching the facts regarding lost mines and buried treasures we ought to try to remain as realists; stick to what can be factually established for at least the most part - sometimes we are forced to make a leap of faith to make connections when circumstantial evidence is all we have, but when that is all we have it is usually safer to NOT make the leap of faith and look in another direction. A body can expend an inordinate amount of time on false leads, and has led to more than one treasure hunter quitting the hobby forever. Perhaps you are optimist enough NOT to quit despite any such waste of time, but I would sooner that you don't waste your time on such a questionable set of artifacts - you have shown ability as a researcher, I am sure you could come up with far more conclusive proofs in OTHER areas if you would abandon the stone "maps" idea. However this is your choice to make, I just see you in some ways a kindred spirit and a friend; I would be remiss if I did not at least try to convince you to expend your talents pursuing better, less controversial evidences.

Joseph, my apologies for dragging you into this debate as we are not able to prove the case either true or false. It has been long and interesting, and those who lean toward believing the stones are genuine probably should do more research into them. It may seem unworthy of a treasure hunter to not wish to pursue further research into items or tales that he or she has concluded are fraudulent, but we all have only a limited amount of time to spend in our pursuits, so can justify NOT spending more time on what appear to be frauds because we have to spend our research time wisely, as wisely as possible so as to make our field work that much more informed and increase our chances of success. If you have the time to spare Mike and others who believe in the Peralta stones, and don't mind expending your limited amount of research time on them when it is possible (you must admit it is possible they are frauds) they COULD be frauds, more power to you! I hope you are able to get up in the hills there and find one or more of those mines, and not hold me as your "enemy" because I failed to believe in them - maybe after you have already mined out enough gold to satisfy Croesus, you could let me go in and re-work the tailings - I will have the energy from having eaten that boiled leather hat stew with the extra protein of a side dish of crow. I won't insist that you eat your hat or the side dish of crow if the stones are proven false, crow is pretty nasty tasting and a leather hat that has been soaked in sweat for years is not exactly appetizing! ;D

Well off to browse the other postings, I hope you all have a great day!
Oroblanco


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Nov 8, 2004
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HI ORO BLANCO: You beat me to it with the Pimas, I was saving that. snifff. However, a third alternative exists, maybe they were blancos living with the Pimas and mining? Happened.

Actually one has a hundred possibilities, including the Peralta thingie, which I seriously doubt.

As for Father Charles Polzer, he was very highly respected in the Academic world, and by me. He was decorated by Spain for his research on Padre Kino. He has accumulated many many honors. This is the first time that I have ever encountered any remarks against him or his honesty. He was about as impeccable as he could be on anything, outside of the Jesuit society itself, which was to be expected.

I fail to see where he would benefit in any way by falsifying data on the Stones, since they are not connected in any way to the Jesuits??

He was the Jesuit authority and historian and worked in the University of Az. in Tucson.

As for rootlets growing in the Stones etc., there is a big business in Pre-Columbian objects here. They simply bury them in a humid area for a year or so and they have the Patina of age plus rootlets. I have several of these figures given to my by the counterfitter. They receive mixed opinions from the leading Experts in the US, most consider them genuine, I have never corrected them..

Till Eulensiegle de La Mancha -- Tropical Tramp
 

gollum

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Oro,

I went over the entire website, but somehow missed that one part. Yes, Tom K is responsible for the conteny of that page. He seems to know the person responsible. I can't wait to hear from him.

As for Mr. Corbin's statement. If it was "THE FBI's BELIEF" that the inscriptions on the stones were over 100 years old at the time, it seemed to be good enough for the state to confiscate them from MOEL Inc. This is based on the LAWSUIT the State of Az brought against MOEL, because if the stones were real, they would have fallen under the Arizona Antiquities Act. Sounds like that very thing happened. See Oro, you keep picking out little bits, but aren't paying attention to the big picture. You take ONE word "believed" and made a big deal about it. Look at what happened to the stones because of what the FBI "believed". And as history proves, MOEL was never able to get the stones back. Sounds like any appeals courts that heard the case agree with the FBIs "belief".

It's easy to prove the stones as false. If the FBI would have found any evidence of modern carving or machining anywhere on the stones, their "belief" would have been completely different! Since their belief was over a hundred years old, they must not have found any evidence of modern work on them.

Come on! Your getting kinky here! Using a democratic method to see who was right? I use Edwards opinion, because (as his story states) he went back and looked over the skeletons! The other two never saw the mining tools or the fully clothed skeleton (with the untanned cowhide pouch with cobbled gold ore).

I think it was Realde Tayopa who claimed that Indians who were found with iron implements were killed (Iron Door Thread, eh?). Oh, and Jose, would the Apache have stripped the Pimas? I really don't know. I know they stripped anglos, but not other Indians.

Of course none of that absolutely proves who it was. No large group of anglos were reported missing, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a party of them travelling through the area, who were attacked and killed. But this all goes back to the big picture thing again. The date of the massacre, and the place of the massacre coincide perfectly with the Peralta Family History. The story that Pedro Peralta was one of the few survivors matches (again) with the Peralta family History (with pictures of the man). Even down to his name and age!

You are right. You have your beliefs, and I am still waiting for either a treasure to be found, or for an official test report.

Best,

Mike
 

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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Hello my friends,
A white or Mexican living with the semi-civilized Pimas would not be an odd thing at all would it? As to using a democratic method of choosing which opinion to believe as to whether they were Pimas or Europeans? Perhaps that is not the best method but even scientists use it, simply recall how it was decided to "demote" the planet Pluto from a planet to a "dwarf". (I actually disagree with that decision too, though those against Pluto as a planet pointed out how there were asteroids and moons as large as Pluto, the planet Pluto has several features which no asteroid and few moons have - Pluto has an atmosphere, a moon of its own, and goes through seasons as it orbits the Sun - find me an asteroid that has those features and I will agree to make that a planet too ;)) So it may not seem a valid way of deciding which opinion was correct for you, but it is valid enough for myself. I would agree that the group killed in Massacre field were Pimas, perhaps with a European type among them as the more likely scenario. I may be a little kinky, but we won't go into that here - anyone got a chicken, hee hee!

So you take the FBI as the definitive answer on the age of a set of engraved stones - even though we cannot read the actual report and have to rely on Corbin saying it was their "belief" which is no absolute term. I will accept the FBI as an authority on fingerprints, ballistics, DNA and hair samples and so forth, but they are not THE recognized authority in the world of epigraphics (stone engravings). Some of the very best are in Israel, and I don't see how we could ever send the stones to the experts there, and to make matters worse even their very best experts were fooled by the King Solomon Tablet. Determining the precise age of engraved stones is tremendously difficult and it is not possible to get an exact age, unless the stones are found in situ with other artifacts (like coins) which can greatly help in establishing the age. If only some other artifacts like coins had been found with the set of four stones! You keep saying that you are only "leaning" to believing the stones are genuine Mike, yet your posts show that you dismiss any argument based on logic (like how likely is it that all four stones would be found by the same people, all completely intact for example) and propound on all sorts of other sources (like the Edwards tale) as a solid proof of how genuine the stones are even when these sources can not be directly tied in to the Peralta stones. I don't know if I believe you when you say you are only "leaning" to believing in the stones as genuine. It is obvious that the many points of unlikelihood I mentioned earlier do not strike you at all, which seems as though you are unwilling to entertain any kind of doubt about the validity of the stones. So if you are that convinced they are genuine, it is pointless to debate them here unless you are on a crusade to convince our readers of their validity or wish to just entertain them; that being said there is nothing wrong with believing they are genuine - they very well COULD be! I would be thrilled to see someone find some old legendary gold mine and get rich, it would serve to restore the faith of us treasure hunters in the very possibility.

I have read over everything you have posted, and I may well have missed some parts (I read pretty fast and do miss things now and then - not that I am admitting any kind of imperfection in myself! haha) You present a fair case for the validity of these mystery stones, if many clues are circumstantial or require a leap of logic to tie in, it certainly seems like enough reason to warrant the efforts of someone or several persons to research the stones further; perhaps enough reason to warrant an expedition into the Superstitions to see if the spots indicated on the maps do in fact lead to long lost mines. If you are not the type of person who will become discouraged (I doubt that just from what I have read here, you seem quite the optimist) and quit treasure hunting altogether if the stone maps were to fail you or prove to be frauds, then I would encourage you to go ahead and do the expedition. You have already worked out the sites indicated on the map (in another thread, devoted exclusively to the Peralta stones) in a way which will fit them - if I were you, had as much confidence in their validity as you do, I would be planning a trip there right now and putting together the equipment, saving up the gas money (a huge expense nowadays, would take me MONTHS to save up enough and I only live a hundred miles or so away! haha) to go check them out. You stand to lose nothing but some time and a little money, if you fail to find any lost mines.

For myself, I just can't buy them as genuine - they are too good to be true in my opinion. Even if they are genuine, there must be some fatal flaw in them, because the finders (we can assume them to be persons of at least average intelligence, I would NOT assume they were just too dumb to figure it out) used the maps in their searches for years and failed to find any lost mines. That does not automatically make them frauds in my book, but raises a giant red flag that they probably are. Unless it requires a much higher intellect than the finders and all those who have later used them as guides to work out the secret (in which case I would be sunk anyway as I am certainly no genius) then it appears that the finders already gave the "maps" more than a fair test by using them, and had plenty of time to work out the secrets. This is certainly not sufficient reason for you to dismiss the stones, that is readily apparent to me, and since you have shown a strong belief in the stones as genuine it is well worth your time and efforts to go ahead and see if it will lead to one or more gold mines. I sincerely hope you will, and wish you good luck and good hunting - like I said perhaps you will let me re-work your tailings when you have gotten all the gold you want? I just personally am not willing to expend more time researching them, much less the actual field expedition it will take to find out for certain. I would be interested in hearing what Tom K had to say in private, if you don't mind sharing and can send it by private message if he would rather not have his private statement made public.

Apaches not stripping their dead enemies because they were also Indians? I don't know why you would assume they would not - they would desecrate their enemies regardless of race or color, to the point of kicking apart the bones of long dead skeletons they happened upon. If the clothes were attractive or appeared possibly useful, they would not hesitate to strip the dead and could care less who it was, unless the person was perhaps a respected enemy or was visibly diseased or infested with body lice etc. There were instances (documented, I do not have the sources here handy but read it in an article on the famous raid by chief Nana, still studied in West Point) where the Apaches did not strip even dead white enemies, but in most of those cases it was thought that the warriors were in a hurry to simply do as much damage as possible in the shortest possible time so as to quickly move on and keep away from pursuing soldiers. Those 25 or so human remains could have been Pimas, could have been Mexicans (it would have been difficult to tell between them, except the Pimas would have been just a bit more Indio) or some lost group of un-lucky Anglos that had just not been reported. If they were Mexicans, it is possible they were the Peraltas coming from or going to their group of legendary gold mines in the Superstitions. I personally have too many doubts about the probabilities, with too many leaps of logic to tie in the circumstantial evidence, to believe in the Peralta mines in the Superstitions or the set of four stone "maps". I would not go up into the Superstitions using the stones as my guide, and would not recommend it to anyone who might be too easily discouraged and quit treasure hunting to use them either. However if you are optimist enough and have that much faith in them, I would say go for it and the sooner the better because IF they ARE true, then it is only a matter of time before someone WILL use them to find those mines and remove the gold! Monsoon is winding down here soon (a week or two at most) so the Superstitions will become a pretty pleasant place to go poking around, if not the safest place on earth it might rival for the most beautiful; wouldn't it be great to actually find one of those mines, pack out some gold and rub our skeptical noses in it! I would not mind that either! I think you would be better off pursuing other leads, but heck that is only my opinion, you have accumulated enough evidence (circumstantial or not) if not enough to convince you absolutely, it is enough to have shown us here that you strongly beleive in them - and why not?

Anyway sorry for yet another long-winded monologue by yours truly, I hope I have not ruffed any feathers out there with my skepticism about these mysterious stones - they sure warrant further research for some ambitious treasure hunter(s) and you just never know with these things - they might pay off in a really big way! I only wish to discourage anyone (who might be discouraged to the point of quitting T-hunting if they should fail or the stones were eventually proven false) from using them as a guide to treasure, as they remain highly controversial and un-proven either way. Perhaps someone will find this a challenge to prove them genuine, and invest the time and efforts it will take? Maybe that person will be you Mike? (hint hint) ;)

Well off to see if I can stay out of trouble this time....
Oroblanco

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gollum

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Para 1:

I never said it couldn't have been Pimas, BUT that was opinion of the other two men who did not go back and look closely at the skeletons like Edwards did. Their opinions were made from the back of a horse. You may consider Pima more likely, but we have a family history with matching names and dates that say it was Peraltas that died on Massacre Field.

Para 2:

Here is something you haven't taken into account; it is very possible that the stones were over 100 years old (in the 1960s). That still doesn't mean they are authentic! AT 100 years puts them right in the time frame of the Reavis-Peralta Land Grant Scheme. They could have very well been made as part of that fraud case. And Yes, I do believe the word of Bob Corbin. nobody has EVERY questioned his honesty, that I have seen. What the FBI had, was the ability to microscopically examine the stones for evidence of modern metal left in the grooves from carving, modern machining of the surfaces, etc. If they would have found any of that, I highly doubt that their "belief" would have been "at least 100 years old".

yet your posts show that you dismiss any argument based on logic (like how likely is it that all four stones would be found by the same people, all completely intact for example)

Of course I dismiss that argument, because it is directly refuted by Travis' brother Robert, when he states that all of the stones were dug up at the same time, from the same hole (see hand drawn map by Travis Tumlinson). And remember, he was there helping to dig up the stones (that is called first hand information) I keep saying, but you seem to keep missing it.

I don't know if I believe you when you say you are only "leaning" to believing in the stones as genuine. It is obvious that the many points of unlikelihood I mentioned earlier do not strike you at all,

And all the points I give you, you either completely ignore (Peralta family history, Robert Tumlinson's Statements, etc), or dismiss out of hand (Bob Corbin, Ben Edwards statements, the fact that the FBI's "belief" caused the stones to be confiscated and never successfully appealed). Right now, that last bit trumps everything.

if many clues are circumstantial or require a leap of logic to tie in,

You say my clues require a leap of logic to tie in, but look at what happened: We have a family history (with pictures) that gives names and dates that match the massacre story. We have a cavalry sergeant who went back after seeing the stripped skeletons, for a closer look, who finds mining tools (that Indians were not supposed to have), and un-Indian clothes on a skeleton that had hidden from the main assault carrying a pouch with hand cobbled gold ore. Now, after reading this, do you associate it with the Peralta family History? No, you make up something that has never been mentioned, that there were white miners with the Pima?

Oh, and I NEVER "assumed" that Apache didn't strip other Indians. If you read what I posted, I very clearly ASK Jose if that were the case. I honestly didn't know!

Jose,
@##$#@$#$ You and Oro Blanco are on my list, NOW I have to do some research, before I was just vaguely curious now??

I feel the same way. Since this crap started, I have been making phone calles, sending emails, and PMs on a few different forums to people that I know are "in the know" on this subject. I sent an email to Jesse Feldman, Tom K, Bob C, The Head Librarian at the Arizona State University Rogers College of Law, FBI FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Office, The A.L. Flagg Foundation, and many others. I have made the following conclusions based on the information I received from many sources:

I have already gone over the finding of the stones, and unless I come across credible evidence refuting the Tumlinson's version, I will keep using it.

Facts:
After Travis Tumlinson's death in 1961, his widow (Alleen) sold the stones to MOEL Inc. for $1200. They kept the stones secret for several years, trying to unlock the secret for themselves. Unable to do it, and for whatever reason, they decided they needed investors to further help with the investigation. Remember, at this time, the stones existence was known to only a couple of people. Finding investors would have been difficult at the very least. There is a story that MOEL had the stones tested for age privately, but I can't find any evidence of that. They needed to get the word out about the stones to help find investors......hhhhhmmmmmm......how to do that?........hhhhmmmmm......I've got it! Enter the Life Magazine Article in Jun of 1964! A feature article in a Nationally Known Publication! Can you imagine any better free advertising than that? After the article came out, MOEL had no problem finding investors.

But, all this publicity comes at a price! Not only did the public find out about the stones for the first time, so did the State and Federal Government! There is some assumption in this spot, but it makes all the sense in the world, there were so many fakes and hoaxes regarding the LDM, I would have no doubt that the state wanted to look a little closer at MOEL Inc. to make sure they weren't running a scam. (Back to facts) The state took the stones for testing in relation to a fraud charge investigation. The state also knew that if the stones were authentic, they would fall under the Arizona Antiquities Act, and not be open to private ownership. To prevent a successful appeal based on "conflict of interest", the stones would have to be sent out of state for testing, and since it was in connection to the investigation of a crime, the Smithsonian would not be the right facility. The FBI labs would be the correct place to send possible criminal evidence for testing. When the stones came back as "at least 100 years old" in the belief of the FBI, that was good enough to retain possession of them (there has never been a successful argument against the states ownership in 40 years).

As a result of the investigation, no fraud charges were brought against MOEL, but they were guilty of selling stock without a license. They agreed to refund the investor's money (about $80,000), to keep from going to jail.

Here is the final information, that may NEVER show one way or the other, the truth of the stones: If you completely believe the story of finding the stones, and you believe Bob Corbin about the FBI findings (and there is no reason not to), then you are left with stones that are "at least 100 years old". Well, 100 years (from the 1960s) puts the stones creation date smack dab in the middle of the Reavis-Peralta Land Grant Fraud Case! Now, there is NO WAY to tell the difference between 1847 and 1867 in scientific dating. It is entirely possible Addison Reavis had the stones faked as part of the land grant claim against the state (the word "DON", and the Spanish wording would have given the Spanish connection they needed). This would also go a long way in explaining the poor grammar and spelling on the carvings! I don't know about the availability of English-Spanish Dictionaries in the mid 1800s. Why they were never used or known about back then is a possible reason for belief that they weren't part of that scheme.

I am satisfied (barring any new evidence), that the above is true. I am satisfied that the stones are at least 140 years old (now). Unless a document from the Land Grant Fraud Case shows up, that talks about the stones, I won't say they are fakes. Unless somebody uses the stones to find monuments matching the stone's engravings (I don't necessarily need the treasure, but it would prove it as well), I won't say they are real.

Best,

Mike
 

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What happened was that Miguel Peralta (the son of the man who claimed the Valenciana Mine in the Bradshaws) sold the fake deed to a man named Dr. George Willing. From there a man named Gitt was involved, and later they added Addison Reavis to the mix.

Reavis was never married to a Peralta, and by the time the whole fraud scheme came to a head, both Willing and Gitt had died. The man left to take the rap was James Addison-Reavis.

The most dubious character in this whole scheme has gone mostly unknown to history. Dr. W. Gitt. He was a known fraudster, having to have fled St. Louis because the former owner's signature on one of his deeds was signed after the owner had died.

If anybody was responsible for forging the stones it was most likely Dr. Gitt.

Best,

Mike
 

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Hello everyone,
Dang it Mike but I did point out that even if the stones could be proven beyond all doubt to be at least 100 years old (in 1960s) that does not automatically make them genuine, for I have mentioned earlier that the manufacture of fakes has a very long history. You have presented many reasons why you believe they are real. You have stated that, 1) you would only agree they were frauds if a scientific test could prove they were not at least 100 years old, [the current state of science may be unable to establish the age absolutely, unfortunately] and 2) "I am satisfied (barring any new evidence), that the above is true. I am satisfied that the stones are at least 140 years old (now). Unless a document from the Land Grant Fraud Case shows up, that talks about the stones, I won't say they are fakes. Unless somebody uses the stones to find monuments matching the stone's engravings (I don't necessarily need the treasure, but it would prove it as well), I won't say they are real." which shows me at least that you are unwilling to commit either way, (a safe proposition) but have posted message after message supporting the Peralta stones are genuine. What else should a reader GET from such a repeated expression, so strongly worded and in such depth, than to conclude that you honestly believe the stones are genuine, regardless of whether you are willing to say so openly or not?

You have apparently been irritated by this whole debate, which as you said quote

Since this crap started, I have been making phone calles, sending emails, and PMs on a few different forums to people that I know are "in the know" on this subject. I sent an email to Jesse Feldman, Tom K, Bob C, The Head Librarian at the Arizona State University Rogers College of Law, FBI FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) Office, The A.L. Flagg Foundation, and many others

Now since you use the word "crap" specifically, this is a clear indication of how you view any negative view of the Peralta stones or opinion that disagrees with your view that they are genuine. Yes you have said that you will not say they are genuine, but you have said it with so many postings in support of their being genuine and your un-willingness to look at the whole idea using just your own logic. We human beings have a proven tendency to "put blinders on" when we have come to believe in something, that is to deny all evidence to the contrary and disagree with any in opposition. (This was proven in a scientific test related to political beliefs a few years ago.) YES I DO pick out a word here and there and focus on it, for a single word makes a huge difference. You point out that I homed in on the word "belief" in what Bob Corbin related concerning the FBI report (yes I hope you can get it too - perhaps you could contact the Corbins?) as not an absolute term; I could point out many examples of how a single word makes a world of difference, like (lame humor attempt here) I almost got that grenade thrown before it went off compared with I definitely got that grenade thrown before it went off. Or how about the Titanic nearly sank after colliding with a glacier versus the Titanic DID sink after colliding with a glacier. Lets use the example with the stones, read these three sentences:

The Peralta stones are real.

The Peralta stones might be real.

The Peralta stones might not be real.

Notice how subtle wording makes a difference? Silly little words can be oh-so-subtle, yet can have a great difference in what the meaning of the phrase truly is. Sometimes even a simple comma or period can change the whole meaning of a sentence, paragraph or report. You are an optimist, and do make a leap from A to B to a step that cannot be directly connected in a number of instances - this could work out very well for you in the finding of a lost gold mine, or it could result in a big waste of time and effort. Like many things in life it is another gamble - which involves the investing of time and effort - I have repeatedly expressed my opinion that I would not be willing to risk wasting my time on this artifact; you are certainly welcome to and I hope you will follow it up, the sooner the better as I stated earlier. (Actually there do appear to be several posts missing here too.) Now I have openly stated that I respect Bob Corbin, yet now you have implied that I am calling him too a liar. Dang it Mike you are making that leap from A to B to Z again so now I want you to go back through ALL of my posts, find the passage where I called Bob Corbin a liar and repost it here as a direct quote. I have not called ANYONE a liar here, in ANY post, in ANY thread, and I do have a right to doubt anyone and everyone whether I call them a liar or not - they can be simply deceived, that in no way makes them liars, which is what I think is the case here. I LOVE the tales of old lost mines and buried treasures as in my opinion the very tales are a sort of treasure in themselves, and am willing to swallow all kinds of tales (some being pretty far-fetched) but in the case of the Peralta-Superstition secret lost gold mines, and Peralta stones just strike me as a whopper.

Since you have shown so much faith in the veracity of these Peralta stones, I have a question for you that you have never answered. (If you have, I sure missed it.) You have expressed your faith in the Tumlinsons as being at least honest citizens, we can assume they were of at least average intelligence correct? Tell me the reason why, even though the Tumlinsons actually used those "maps" to search for the lost mines in the Superstitions for years and failed to locate a single one, you still hold that they are genuine and will lead to the lost mines? I just don't get it. No matter how much evidence shows them to be real, the final litmus test of actually using them to search for the mines (the maps supposedly lead to) has been done, not just one time but repeatedly, and we don't know how many others have also tried using them without success but not ONE person has ever come forward to claim that they used the "maps" and successfully found any of those legendary mines. Please enlighten me as to why this ULTIMATE test of the stones, which they have failed miserably time and again, is still not enough for you? Do you feel that the Tumlinsons were just too dumb, too inexperienced, incapable of working out the "secret" or is there some other reason? For as I mentioned before, even if the Peralta stones are very real, there must be some fatal flaw which is why those who HAVE already put them to the final test have failed repeatedly. If no other reason to doubt the stones existed, this alone is enough reason (in MY OPINION) not to waste any time on them.

My apologies on the Apaches stripping the dead - the way your question was phrased implied that it was said in sarcasm so I responded accordingly. The whole Pima-Mexican-Anglo-Peralta question over the massacre victims is just not clear cut enough to satisfy me that they were, or must have been Peraltas, much less Peraltas with secret gold mines in the Superstitions. It strikes me that the more likely scenario is a group of Pimas; a party of missing Mexicans numbering 25 would almost certainly be reported to the military officials (whether Mexican or American, and we do NOT know the exact date when the massacre occurred from the remains on the spot) and some kind of military force sent out to search for them. You point out that Pedro Peralta claimed to have been a survivor of the massacre as solid proof that it MUST then be the Peraltas who were massacred, yet look at any massacre in history and you find claimants to have survived the massacre, claimants who were making false claims (look at how many claimed to have survived Custer's last stand for example - if they were all there he would have had a better chance of holding out!) now before you make that leap from A to B to Z again and say that I am calling the deceased Pedro Peralta a LIAR, I will say this as plainly as I can - the fact that he claimed to be a survivor does not prove he was there, nor does it prove that he was not. We have no confirmation from any other survivor, no report of any large missing party in the Superstitions, not even an old Apache/Yavapai tale of how one survivor was seen running away from the fight and escaped. Of course the Apaches or Yavapais to be correct might not have noticed one enemy escaping, this happens in fire-fights, or simply no warrior lived to tell of it to the Anglos who write the history books. COULD Pedro Peralta have been the sole survivor, and the whole tale of secret gold mines in the Superstitions be true, of course it could. However it DOES take some leaping of faith to accept the tale lock,stock and barrel, as we cannot prove it beyond doubt with the evidence available (so far!) perhaps some ambitious researcher can produce enough documents, DNA evidence from the remains etc or some of the legendary mines to remove all doubt?

I would also point out to you that the fact the Peralta stones were seized by the authorities does not automatically make them genuine either and it is a fact that the legal authorities DO seize FAKES too, as the making of fakes (in many fields) is ILLEGAL and is evidence for court. You must know that but have not covered it, because it does not reflect on the genuine-ness of the stones.

I have one more question for you Mike, since we seem to be caught in an endless cycle here, why not use the maps (or photos rather as big flat stones are too danged heavy, brittle and cumbersome to haul around in a wilderness with you - one of the reasons I pointed out earlier to doubt they are real that you seem to ignore - and remember these Peraltas were in a known hostile Apache stronghold when they are purported to be in there, which makes the use of stone maps even less likely as they would slow down and hinder their movements) to go up into the Superstitions and follow them out to where you have worked out the sites to be? You will be able to prove one way or the other at least to your own satisfaction...what do you stand to lose? You will not find me the type of person to say "I told you so" if you should find that they are false, but instead if you should locate one of those legendary mines, I will be the first to congratulate you. Are you not willing to go through the effort, to spend your time and money to see just what the maps lead to, maps which you have repeatedly supported in post after post as being absolutely genuine? If you are not willing to expend your time and money to find out, why not? Just curious, but would like to see if you can find one or more of the lost mines, heck I would think that would be great. I really do wish I could believe in the Peralta stones, if I could I would sure make the expedition to go find the mines they are supposed to lead to. 8) Don't hand me the excuse that it is soooo-far-away in the next state, as we are talking about MILLIONS in gold, certainly worth the extra gas money the distance would require. Failing this, now I was willing to stick my neck out and risk being made a public fool by stating openly that I do not believe the Peralta stones are genuine, are you willing to stick your neck out and say they are genuine, since you have posted so many times how real they must be? ???

Well off to see how many other nice people I can get irritated...
Oroblanco

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HI Idle notes.

A) I do not feel that the stones are from the Peraltas. They could be "genuine" forgeries from some scheme or another reason, but not from the Peraltas.

B) As for the whites (?) living with Indians, it has been done from the time of the first contact by the Europeans. Well documented.

C) The Dutchman's remark that it was where no Gold could be found or suspected to be found, as one of the reasons that no-one would ever find his mine, heck, that is one of the main reasons why the Tayopa Mines. were lost for so many years, they are in the middle of a barran Basalt region.

Even today, after I approached certain mining companies, they would not even go there to see, since their Geologists claim that it is impossible for an economical deposit of Gold to occur under these conditions.

What they don't know is my secret, and I am not about to divulge that until I find one that will agree to go beyond the actual limits of the Tayopa mines and actually look at the reason for the Tayopa occurrence. Actually it is far bigger than Tayopa.

D) As to the stones being examined and stated to be "believed" to be over 100 years old, sheehs, I was a Federal Officer once and do know how these things can/do work.

A high enforcement officer in a state is naturally chummy with the local federal office of enforcement. If I wanted these stones for my state, I would merely suggest that they find them to be under the antiquities act by being over 100 years old. The Federal agency, being in sympathy with preserving such artifacts, would issue a statemet that we "Believe" these stones are over 100 years old - no comitment - this is regardless of the tests, if actally made, since they, like most of the public, would perhaps believe that they were better in a museum for future generations to see.

E) Not knowing the exact status of the Superstitions at the early 1800's in regards to different tribes, I am at a loss on the so called masaccare. I find it difficult to believe that such a large group of other Indians would tempt the Apache IF it was actually an Apache strong hold at that time. Since the military did not teach Forensic science to it's officers, he could easily be very greatly mistaken as to when it had taken place.

I "can" believe that it was inhabited by another group who were driven out by an Apache take over. This group could have been mining, since the southwest was liberally spotted with Native Indian workings - gold, copper, lead, jade, Turquoise etc etc. Many of these early workings were taken over by the Spanish by force and developed into excellent mines...

F) I mentioned how forgeries of pre Columbiaan figureines is a big business near here and how they aged them, I naturally apply this thinking to the stones hmmmmm.

G) What I cannot adjust to is the WHY? Why on heavy stones which would be difficult to transport on scarce animals?

Why were they buried in a inconspicous place which has no apparant locating data such as large rocks, hills, springs, etc. for later recovery? What could have led another sent by them, say 20 years later, to actually locate them?

I have many other "whys", but that is enough for the moment.

Put it all togeher and I do not have faith in the Peralta story, I tend to Oro Blanco on this.

I am enclosing a popular map to Tayopa which surpriseingly turned out to be almost 90% correct. It has been published many times in magazines, books, and letters, so I am not violating anyones © rights.

Probabably 100's have used this map to look for Tayopa, all failed. Mostly because one of the original writers had stated that the canyon drainages were to the North. He was completely wrong, they are to the south, so Tayopa instead of being on the Northern drainage of the Mesa (Sierra Obscuro) was on the southern drainage some 70+ miles to the south. BOY AM I GLAD THAT THEY FOLLOWED LIKE SHEEP!

Tropical Tramp
 

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Hi Randy!
See what happens when a guy gets too much sun, spends too much time out hunting for legendary mines and buried treasures? You end up like ME! ;D (heh heh) I see that you are willing to stick your neck out in public too, on the validity of the Peralta stones...

You mentioned earlier that you were interested in the Reavis-Peralta land grant scam - here is one article online about it:
http://www.wesclark.com/jw/baron_az.html

It dang near worked too! There are at least two books on the subject, have never read either though.

HIO Tropical Tramp! I see your logical mind has been considering the many questions where the Peralta stones, the massacre and legendary mines are concerned. I do wonder, if the stones are false, why they half-buried them where they were found? I can't figure out why they would have been buried on that spot if they were genuine either for that matter. If they were fakes, why dump them in an out of the way spot like that, though being along a highway isn't that hard to figure - on the other hand if they were genuine, why not bury them close to some obvious landmark so as to easily find them again?

You know you raise a good point too - that one map that was correct being used by hundreds of others without success, can be used to say that the Peralta stones being used by so many persons without success does not automatically prove they are false, but you also noted that the one correct map HAD A FATAL FLAW, that Tayopa was NOT north slope canyons but the south, and I think it is safe to assume that the Peralta maps, even if genuine as a silver dollar, must have some kind of fatal flaw - which may NOT be readily apparent.
Roy - Oroblanco
 

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Oroblanco

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Hello again,
Sorry for keeping on with picking at this thread but here goes anyway, please bear with me?

Golllum wrote, quote "The Peraltas of Sonora were a well known and landed family, that were miners. They owned silver and gold mines. They were very prosperous (according to Ward's book "Travels in Mexico in 1827). Then, just after 1850, the family is never mentioned again. This coincides perfectly with the modern Peralta's account of the 1847 massacre destroying the family <snip>

Mike, you are an intelligent person - think about this for a moment. Let us assume for the hypothesis here that the whole tale of Peralta secret gold mines (secret as in not recorded legally, nor reported elsewhere in gold sales or shipments) is TRUE. We then can build the scenario-history; we have Peraltas operating a rich silver mine in southern Sonora in the 1820s and beyond; they then go into the Superstition mountains and find a whole group of incredibly rich gold mines there, but fail to denounce them under Mexican mining law and keep them a secret, so secret that no trace of any gold production is discernible today; they are up in the Superstitions mining when they are suddenly ambushed by hostile Indians who kill off ALL of the members of their party of 25, leaving only poor Pedro to escape; then some thirty-odd years later, Pedro discovers a not-too-shabby gold mine in the Bradshaws and operates that mine, which he files legal claims on. In fact we get the impression that the Peralta family is not exactly "wiped out" by 1870s, but flourishing. Nothing about this tale strikes you as the least bit improbable, despite being supported so thinly or the apparent illogical story? If the Peralta family were wiped out in the massacre, why didn't Pedro report this to the Mexican military authorities, he would have risked nothing in doing so and it is possible the Mexican army would have sent in an expedition to at least bury the dead (as they did in other known and documented battles) Pedro could then have gone back and worked on his rich secret gold mines in relative safety. Doesn't that strike you as strange behavior (at least!) for Pedro?

How about this question - if Pedro knew of a whole group of secret and incredibly rich gold mines in the Superstitions, why on earth would he have bothered to go prospecting and mining in the Bradshaws? There were Apache attacks there as well, if not as infamous as a danger spot it was certainly not that safe. You don't see any thing illogical about this idea of Pedro, knowing where a whole group of secret, rich gold mines are, then just abandoning them to go up into the Bradshaws, where the miners are also attacked? I don't get it, but then I am not the brightest bulb in the rack here either so....????

This has been a fascinating discussion, with so many questions and theories; I cannot figure out many of them to an absolute certainty. Why, for instance, if the stones are genuine, is there no record of them prior to their discovery in 1949? All we can do is conjecture, unforunately.

Sorry again for keeping on with picking away at the details. :-\
Oroblanco
 

gollum

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Roy,

The only thing that irritates me, is the fact that you keep thinking I'm getting irritated! ;D ;D ;D

I can see that you aren't a "big picture guy". You are more of a "detail guy". Read my quote of jose right before the quote you made of me! I was joking (as was Joe) about having to go from being perfectly happy not knowing that much about the stones (and sitting on the fence) to having to do all the research on them, trhat I have done. I would have much rather slept at night for the last few days! ;D ;D ;D

Here's what I'll do: when I am really irritated, I won't use smileys ;D . When I am joking, I will use them!

What I meant by proving they are not over 1oo years old was that if they were examined under a microscope, we could easily see if there were modern metal fragments from the grooves, or machining marks on the surface. The FBI tests tend to disprove that.

Never said you called Corbin a liar exactly, but you are quick to discount his statements, and he is one of the very few people alive who had any direct information about the stones.

About the 'belief " thing again. You are playing semantics! I will say it one last time; Because of the FBIs "belief", the stones were taken, and NO appeal to the decision has EVER been able to get the stones from the state!

Jose,

I would think you better than that!
D) As to the stones being examined and stated to be "believed" to be over 100 years old, sheehs, I was a Federal Officer once and do know how these things can/do work.

A high enforcement officer in a state is naturally chummy with the local federal office of enforcement. If I wanted these stones for my state, I would merely suggest that they find them to be under the antiquities act by being over 100 years old. The Federal agency, being in sympathy with preserving such artifacts, would issue a statemet that we "Believe" these stones are over 100 years old - this is regardless of the tests, if actally made, since they, like most of the public, would perhaps believe that they were better in a museum for future generations to see.

You come out of nowhere with an accusation of fraud by the state! Without one word EVER having been said in ANY writing I have ever seen! You accuse the state of collusion with the Feds in defrauding somebody out of the stones! That's sad my friend! :'( :'( :'(

And it also makes absolutely ZERO sense! If the stones were fakes, the state could have gone a long way to prove a fraud case against MOEL, and why would the state even want the stones if they were fakes? Sending them to the FBI was just a step in a criminal investigation of MOEL Inc.

Oro,

I am just providing arguments that counter the statements of those who have said categorically the stones are fakes. You can't possibly speak in absolutes without some first hand knowledge. I've said it fifty times, and I'll say it again, " I am on the fence" I have done more research than most human beings who claim to be knowledgeable about the stones. I have found much circumstantial evidence that, when all added together, makes a pretty good case for them being real. I have found other evidence that suggests they are possibly fakes from an older time. No way to tell unless the landmarks are there, the treasure shows up, or some paper from an old filing cabinet, that says Reavis had used the stones to bolster his case for the Peralta Land Grant, but to the best of my knowledge, the stones remained a complete secret until 1964.

Best,

Mike
 

gollum

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I will answer the lady first (the gentlemanly thing to do),

Het Beth,

Most people who are knowledgeable about the stones don't associate them with LDM (Lost Dutchman Mine). That came about much later.

People have been looking for the LDM since before jacob Waltz died! It is a fact that he killed as many as (read possibly) 27 people defending the secret of his gold.

The stone maps were only made known to the public in 1964 (in the Life article). With the Spanish inscriptions, and the word "DON", many people associated them with the legend of the Peralta Mines (of which The Dutchman's was supposed to be one).

There is not nor has there ever ben any REAL association of the stones with teh LDM.

Mike
 

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Oroblanco

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HIO friends,
Mike, I take it then that you are NOT willing to expend your time and effort to go into the Superstitions to see if the maps are genuine?
Roy
 

gollum

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Oroblanco said:
Hello again,
Sorry for keeping on with picking at this thread but here goes anyway, please bear with me?

Golllum wrote, quote "The Peraltas of Sonora were a well known and landed family, that were miners. They owned silver and gold mines. They were very prosperous (according to Ward's book "Travels in Mexico in 1827). Then, just after 1850, the family is never mentioned again. This coincides perfectly with the modern Peralta's account of the 1847 massacre destroying the family <snip>

Mike, you are an intelligent person - think about this for a moment. Let us assume for the hypothesis here that the whole tale of Peralta secret gold mines (secret as in not recorded legally, nor reported elsewhere in gold sales or shipments) is TRUE. We then can build the scenario-history; we have Peraltas operating a rich silver mine in southern Sonora in the 1820s and beyond; they then go into the Superstition mountains and find a whole group of incredibly rich gold mines there, but fail to denounce them under Mexican mining law and keep them a secret, so secret that no trace of any gold production is discernible today; they are up in the Superstitions mining when they are suddenly ambushed by hostile Indians who kill off ALL of the members of their party of 25, leaving only poor Pedro to escape; then some thirty-odd years later, Pedro discovers a not-too-shabby gold mine in the Bradshaws and operates that mine, which he files legal claims on. In fact we get the impression that the Peralta family is not exactly "wiped out" by 1870s, but flourishing. Nothing about this tale strikes you as the least bit improbable, despite being supported so thinly or the apparent illogical story? If the Peralta family were wiped out in the massacre, why didn't Pedro report this to the Mexican military authorities, he would have risked nothing in doing so and it is possible the Mexican army would have sent in an expedition to at least bury the dead (as they did in other known and documented battles) Pedro could then have gone back and worked on his rich secret gold mines in relative safety. Doesn't that strike you as strange behavior (at least!) for Pedro?

How about this question - if Pedro knew of a whole group of secret and incredibly rich gold mines in the Superstitions, why on earth would he have bothered to go prospecting and mining in the Bradshaws? There were Apache attacks there as well, if not as infamous as a danger spot it was certainly not that safe. You don't see any thing illogical about this idea of Pedro, knowing where a whole group of secret, rich gold mines are, then just abandoning them to go up into the Bradshaws, where the miners are also attacked? I don't get it, but then I am not the brightest bulb in the rack here either so....????

Oro,

You have your Peralta family members wrong!

After Pedro made his way back to Sonora after the massacre, he shortly after moved to Baja, where he lived out his life. He was married three times. The woman in the picture with him is his third wife, and the picture was taken in the 1870s. Pedro never went to California, or claimed the Valenciana mine.

Here is that part of the family (quote from the book):

"Following Luis Peralta's departure from Tubac in 1776 with de Anza, there were no Peraltas living in Arizona until Antonio Pablo Peralta reached the la Paz Mining Camp in 1862. He and his son had originally travelled from Ures, Sonora to Northern California; Pablo then followed the gold rush trail South to Southern california and then La Paz on the Colorado River, where his son Miguel soon joined him. Disappointed with the yield at their camp in La paz, they followed the migration to the new goldfields discovered in the Prescott area. Excluded from the new Pioneer and Walker Districts because they were not Anglos (*article 14 of the Articles of Walker Mining District), they prospected the surrounding country and in 1864 filed a virgin claim on a mine they called the Valenciana in the Bradshaw Mountains."

The Peraltas in the Bradshaws had left Mexico in 1776. Different side of the same family.

To answer your question about the secrecy, I don't know if you remember this, but there was this little thing called the Mexican-American War from 1845 until 1848! I don't believe they would want anybody outside the family knowing about a valuable mine/mines in ENEMY TERRITORY!

About the make and size of the stones: They may have been placed there as a guide for somebody equipped to read them. There could have quite easily been a map to the location of the stones, and once you got there, they would guide the way in, to be reburied before leaving. No permanent paper maps to the mine/mines because of the MExican-American War! If you owned a valuable mine/mines, would you take a chance of always carrying a map to them when travelling through enemy territory?

Best,

Mike
 

gollum

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mrs.oroblanco said:
So, it got associated simply through the belief of some people that the Peralta mine and the Lost Dutchman were one in the same?

(by Bicknell?)

Quite possibly by Bicknell, but mainly by gossipers in general. There is a possibility that (if the stones are authentic), and they ARE to the Peralta Mines, AND Jacob Waltz's Mine was one of the Peralta's Mines, THEN the maps would be related to the LDM (but that's a lot of "ifs" and "maybes").

Mike
 

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Hi Mike and everyone,
Hmm, now you don't think that a good rolled up leather map would have been a lot simpler to pack and sneak out of "enemy territory" (remember the American army "invasion" was not really a large force covering every area) than a set of stone maps?

Again not to pick but the text you site even says,
"Following Luis Peralta's departure from Tubac in 1776 with de Anza, there were no Peraltas living in Arizona until Antonio Pablo Peralta reached the la Paz Mining Camp in 1862. "

Now am I reading THAT wrong too or does this not provide more evidence that NO Peraltas were in Arizona in the 1840s?

I know I am really wasting your time and efforts here, as I mentioned before at this point I would have to see a lost Peralta gold mine found using the stone maps for me to be convinced they were real - but I like reading your posts, always full of information (if sometimes there is a small jump or two of logic involved) it makes for fascinating reading. I would like to suggest that you collect what you have written here and in the other threads on the Peralta stones and edit it into an article to publish in a magazine. I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that LT mag would buy it, and you could at least get a little cash for your efforts in research. A lot of readers would probably very much enjoy it too!

I have not figured out here yet, have you said or implied that you would NOT be willing to go spend your time and efforts to go up into the Superstitions to put the stones to the ultimate test? If I missed it, that is that danged senility setting in on me again! Maybe I can blame it on Jeff... :D Anyway I would like to know if you are willing to do it or not?

Also, there is a new thread on the Peralta stones with a question on the round holes, Mike this is right up your alley you could explain it best for him.
Roy - Oroblanco
 

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TALLY HO! ORO BLANCO: sorry for modifying the post while you were reading it sniff.

A) I thoroughly believe they were intended to be casually found, whether by the actual finders or anyone else that might come along. But not by someone sent by the Peraltas. WHY? I have many theories, however that is another story.

Yes, they obviously have a fatal flaw to mislead others, since they lead to no mines in the first place, only tend to back up another thingie..

I have a Jesuit document on one of the Tayopa deposits, which has certain data mirror imaged, upside down. They loved their little games.

However I see absolutely no connection here with the Jesuits.
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=gollum ]

What I meant by proving they are not over 1oo years old was that if they were examined under a microscope, we could easily see if there were modern metal fragments from the grooves, or machining marks on the surface. The FBI tests tend to disprove that. (edited for clarification, but not changing a single word)
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"IF" they were examined ?? hmmm However I agree, IF they had been examined ---.
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I will say it one last time; Because of the FBIs "belief", the stones were taken, and NO appeal to the decision has EVER been able to get the stones from the state!
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How many times has a state/US Gov't been sued in such a case as this successfully? It would require proving that they were less than 100 years old just as difficult, and, "who' would that final decision be made by? Especially after the state and local federal office had stated that in their "BELIEF" they were included in the antiquities law?- notice no positive commitment here, only a generality - I "know" that this would not have any bearing or emotional impact upon the judgement of the expert who most probably would be in the inner circles of Archaeology and figure that even if they are fakes, they belong in a museum as other famous fakes are..
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Jose,
I would think you better than that!
D) As to the stones being examined and stated to be "believed" to be over 100 years old, sheehs, I was a Federal Officer once and do know how these things can/do work.

You come out of nowhere with an accusation of fraud by the state! Without one word EVER having been said in ANY writing I have ever seen! You accuse the state of collusion with the Feds in defrauding somebody out of the stones! That's sad my friend! :'( :'( :'(
******************

Hmm Golliium where have I stated fraud? collusion yes, but please do not insult my intelligence by saying that our Gov'ts state and Federal, have never done this or are not doing it right now. Listening!
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And it also makes absolutely ZERO sense! If the stones were fakes, the state could have gone a long way to prove a fraud case against MOEL,
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Only "IF" it could be proved that MOEL had known they were fakes.
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Sending them to the FBI was just a step in a criminal investigation of MOEL Inc.
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Have you ever received the results of these so called tests from the FBI?
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No way to tell unless the landmarks are there, the treasure shows up, or some paper from an old filing cabinet, that says Reavis had used the stones to bolster his case for the Peralta Land Grant, but to the best of my knowledge, the stones remained a complete secret until 1964.
*************
Possibly because he couldn't produce them since he never knew that they were found or by whom, IF Tomlinson was an innocent party. However, if they had been accepted, they would have established a Peralta presence in Az to help validate any claims.

Tropical Tamp

p.s hey, this is as much fun as any court case that I have been involved with..



Mike
 

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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Hello again friends,
Well since this discussion has more than a passing resemblance to a real court case (without the court and greedy lawyers involved, at least not yet!) perhaps we should ask the questions for no other reason than the entertainment of our readers here.

Why would the Peraltas have made convoy-type expeditions from far south to the Superstitions, when they could have based their operations in nearby towns at far less cost and time wasted in travel? That does not make sense to me. Why did they not file mining claims on the legendary mines? That too does not make sense to me, Mexican war or not, it seems it would have been more than prudent to establish a legal ownership to lands and minerals quickly before the war ended and titles to lands would be settled. If they had found a group of rich gold mines in 1847 (or about) why would they have gone in 1862 to the La Paz district? Wouldn't it make more sense to head for those secret gold mines in the Superstitions?

I see the hand of Barry Storm in the Peralta legend, and Bicknell too; if I were to point a finger at who(m) I would accuse as the creator of the Peralta stones, it would be Barry Storm himself. He was actively promoting the Lost Dutchman mine in the right time frame, here is another little extract from Tom K's site
"Storm's real name was John G. Clymenson and he used Barry Storm as his pen name. Storm was one of the most celebrated writers and promoters of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Peralta Mines in the early 1940s up to the early 1960s.
Now who on earth would be the most likely suspect for having made fake stone maps, then planting them alongside a well-traveled highway where some un-suspecting person(s) would likely find them, but our good old Barry Storm, who is known to have embellished upon all the tales he wrote? Hmmmm......

You say I am not much of a "big picture" guy, but really I am, but I try to pay attention to details - I have tried to present the "big picture" of the many points of questionable logic in the whole Peralta legend from secret mines with no records to mysterious maps of which none are missing or broken, and failing this have tried to simply home in on the most serious doubts like the maps being already put to the ultimate test – none of these are sufficient to you to dismiss the maps. I have now added a leading suspect as the source of the legends and quite possibly of the stones as well in our good author Barry Storm. Let me ask you yet another question, would you say that Barry Storm would have been capable of at least embellishing the Peralta legends and/or maps?



So Mike, ready to jump down off that comfortable fence (they aren't all that comfortable, those picket points can be downright painful!) on one side of this or the other? Randy has said he is willing to be a partner. If you are not willing to go up and put the stones to the ultimate test, I for one would like to know why not, since you have posted so many arguments in their favor? ???
Roy

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"==Groucho
 

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Oroblanco

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Hi Randy - yes there were undoubtedly Mexicans and/or Spaniards or perhaps more likely Pimas or Papagos prospecting and-or mining in the Superstitions, but we don't appear to have a clear way to tie these in to being definitely Peraltas. Based on the known behavior of documented Peraltas, they filed legal claims on the known mines that can be attributed to them (the silver mine and the gold mine in the Bradshaws) so why would they have chosen NOT to file claims on a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions and establish their legal ownership, in fact especially in the face of a war in which non-documented land/mineral title claims might end up being lost? This is just another part of the Peralta legend that does not make sense to my tiny brain. I can't say they are absolutely impossible to have had secret gold mines, it just seems illogical based on known behavior. :-\ Barry Storm, your shadow continues to stretch across the Superstitions.....
Roy
 

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Hey Roy,

The reason I don't go with your logic is because it doesn't address some of the known factors (like documented Peralta family History). Go to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society's Museum at Goldfield, Inc. The entire Peralta display is on loan from that part of the family.

As for filing claims on the mines: I will say it one more time! The Mexican-American War was going on from 1845 until 1848. After the Mexicans lost and signed the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, EVERY Mexican that owned ANY property North of the NEW BORDER lost it all! I haven't seen any stories that say how long the Peraltas worked those mines. I'll ask you this question: Pretend it is 1845, and you are a Mexican. You have seen all the reports from the 16th and 17th centuries of great quantities of gold and silver North of the Gila River (all the way back to 1540). You go up and find some VERY nice gold mines. Around this time there is a war between the US and Mexico, if the US wins, you lose everything North of the New Border. Would you REALLY file a claim on your mines? I wouldn't! I would secretly work them with only my family members and my hacienda employees involved! I wouldn't go into town for supplies either. Why would I take a chance on somebody following me back to my mines, when I could outfit my own family expedition to be completely self-sufficient. Also, a larger expedition would give greater security against Indian attacks.

Let's go a little further with this scenario: Say you found the LDM. It is as rich as the best legend says. Gold just laying there for the picking! Would you work it secretly, or would you report it and try to get it legally (not likely)?

Jose,

First of all, you haven't addressed my question as to why would the Government want to prove that fake stones were real? There is ZERO logic in that! The logical thing would be for the Gov to prove the authentic stones were fakes! That way they would have had a case of fraud against MOEL, and got them to pay out a lot more than they did (fraud charges are more serious than selling unlicensed stocks). If the Gov knew they were fakes, WHY would they want to take them away from those that had them? THINK MAN THINK!

If there was any chicanery with the FBI, there are still investors alive out there (I have corresponded with one) from the MOEL deal that would have a very good claim of ownership of the stones (if they did not fall under the auspices of the Arizona Antiquities Act). The one I spoke with absolutely believes they are over 140 years old. He told me that if they were fakes, he would have sued for ownership, because he could rake in the bucks on EBAY fakes or not!

If Barry Storm had faked the stones, why on Earth would they have been kept a secret? Here is a quote from somebody who knew Barry Storm:

"I spent several weeks with Barry Storm in the desert in southern CA. As I recall it was in late 1964. At the time we were prospecting as a hobby and he had his service retirement and a little jade mine for income. He lived in an eight foot square shack made out of plywood. He had no electricity and still believed that the communists were after him. He wore a gun most of the time. I think he got his mail at Desert Center during that period." -Gary Swallow. June, 1999.

He could have made a pretty penny if he had come out and said, "I FAKED THE PERALTA STONES!" He didn't! He chose to live in and "Eight foot square plywood shack" rather than be famous again for a little while! I SERIOUSLY doubt Barry Storm had anything to do with the Stone Maps! He died in 1971. The stones had been famously public for about seven years before he died, but he never said to one person that he had anything to do with them!

So Roy,

I have not laid out one piece of "questionable logic". Any suppositions I have made, were based on either known facts, documented family history, or known history.

Best,

Mike
 

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