The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Infosponge]

Good afternoon Gollum,

The main version of how Tumlinson found the Stone Maps comes from his Uncle Robert. WHY on God's Green Earth would Travis lie to his uncle and partner about where and how he found them? Why would he draw his uncle and partner a map pinpointing the location of where he found them knowing it was a lie? Its not like he was writing an article for TREASURE! Magazine. IT WAS HIS FREAKING UNCLE! That is the part that people keep forgetting: THE STONES WERE A FREAKING SECRET! The ONLY people that knew of their existence were a few people close to the Tumlinsons and a few more that the info got leaked to. I would guess maybe 15 or so people. THAT IS FIFTEEN OR SO PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that knew of the existence of the Stone Maps. Where is the need to lie?

I can think of at least one reason, if the stones are in fact stolen property. If Grandpa John Jackson Tumlinson Sr. A.K.A. Pegleg Tumlinson, did indeed steal the stones from the Arizpe Mission, then it would explain why Travis would have concocted the story of finding the stones along the side of the road. The story of finding the stones would kill two birds with one stone. 1) How they came into his possession. 2) Keep Grandpa Pegleg's name from being impligated in any wrong doing. Once the story was told Travis would have to stick to it, even to his uncle. Drawing a map to the discovery location just adds credence to the story.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

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[gollum]

Good afternoon Gollum,

The main version of how Tumlinson found the Stone Maps comes from his Uncle Robert. WHY on God's Green Earth would Travis lie to his uncle and partner about where and how he found them? Why would he draw his uncle and partner a map pinpointing the location of where he found them knowing it was a lie? Its not like he was writing an article for TREASURE! Magazine. IT WAS HIS FREAKING UNCLE! That is the part that people keep forgetting: THE STONES WERE A FREAKING SECRET! The ONLY people that knew of their existence were a few people close to the Tumlinsons and a few more that the info got leaked to. I would guess maybe 15 or so people. THAT IS FIFTEEN OR SO PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that knew of the existence of the Stone Maps. Where is the need to lie?

I can think of at least one reason, if the stones are in fact stolen property. If Grandpa John Jackson Tumlinson Sr. A.K.A. Pegleg Tumlinson, did indeed steal the stones from the Arizpe Mission, then it would explain why Travis would have concocted the story of finding the stones along the side of the road. The story of finding the stones would kill two birds with one stone. 1) How they came into his possession. 2) Keep Grandpa Pegleg's name from being impligated in any wrong doing. Once the story was told Travis would have to stick to it, even to his uncle. Drawing a map to the discovery location just adds credence to the story.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

Buddy,

THAT is no reason. You are talking about Robert Tumlinson's Uncle (PegLeg's Nephew). Don't you think he would have known the truth? He was closer to PegLeg than Travis (in the family tree). Why would Travis lie to his Uncle about it? By not telling Robert the truth it may damage his chances of deciphering the stones., of which I am sure he was to get a portion. Still doesn't make sense. If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?

I know you want the stones to apply somewhere else, but that is not where the evidence we have so far says is "most likely." As far as possibilities go, they could apply to the area of Arizpe, or the S.... ...., or a million other places between Mexico City and Memphis. HAHAHA We just need to look at MOST LIKELY.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

..... If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?.......

Of course, under this scenario, there may well have been additional information (an accompanying document, yet another stone, information from the padre, local rumors, etc.) that we are not aware of that linked the stones to the Superstitions. We have no way of knowing that. However, if that were the case, then it makes sense. Now, if the Superstitions were chosen without a supporting reason, then we truly do enter the hoax or prank realm. Door 1 seems the most likely if you believe that Peg Leg was involved as rumored, given Travis' later actions that you've referred to, i.e. his reported lengthy effort to solve the maps.

 

[Infosponge]

Dearest Gollum,

THAT is no reason. You are talking about Robert Tumlinson's Uncle (PegLeg's Nephew). Don't you think he would have known the truth? He was closer to PegLeg than Travis (in the family tree). Why would Travis lie to his Uncle about it? By not telling Robert the truth it may damage his chances of deciphering the stones., of which I am sure he was to get a portion. Still doesn't make sense.

Good point! So what's to say they weren't both in on the story of finding them to protect the family name?

If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?

The logic being the stones do not name a specific location other than Santa Fe, or maybe horse pasture along a river somewhere to the north of……………(drum roll please)………….. ARIZPE! That could put the location anywhere, including the Superstitions which are north of the Gila river. Without knowing the exact area of where to apply the stones, then it is a matter of trying to make them fit a specific location. Even if Travis found the stones where he claimed he did, what proof do you have that they apply to the Superstition mountains? That is one hell of an assumption at best! Maybe they were being transported from a different location further to the west, and for whatever reason they were left there on the trip back to Santa Fe.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[NativeOne]

Dearest Gollum,

THAT is no reason. You are talking about Robert Tumlinson's Uncle (PegLeg's Nephew). Don't you think he would have known the truth? He was closer to PegLeg than Travis (in the family tree). Why would Travis lie to his Uncle about it? By not telling Robert the truth it may damage his chances of deciphering the stones., of which I am sure he was to get a portion. Still doesn't make sense.

Good point! So what's to say they weren't both in on the story of finding them to protect the family name?

If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?

The logic being the stones do not name a specific location other than Santa Fe, or maybe horse pasture along a river somewhere to the north of……………(drum roll please)………….. ARIZPE! That could put the location anywhere, including the Superstitions which are north of the Gila river. Without knowing the exact area of where to apply the stones, then it is a matter of trying to make them fit a specific location. Even if Travis found the stones where he claimed he did, what proof do you have that they apply to the Superstition mountains? That is one hell of an assumption at best! Maybe they were being transported from a different location further to the west, and for whatever reason they were left there on the trip back to Santa Fe.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

'Maybe' well since we are playing around with 'maybe' well maybe there are really extra terrestrials in roswell new mexico, since az and new mexico were really the same place in history, then santa fe and the superstitions would really be brother and sister, an alien or extra terrestrial may be 'some what uneducated in human language and spelling,' but got the gist of it from some portuguese spanards that were traveling through at the time, to get by they needed gold for their advanced computer circuits, so they made the peralta stone maps, and at the same time carved bluff spring mountain to match the priest and horse on the stone maps, they had to journey light years away but knew they would return in 2010 earth time, to recover the gold with the help of the ancestors of the same portuguese spanards that led them there in the first place. NOW PROVE ME WRONG!

 

[gollum]

Dearest Gollum,

THAT is no reason. You are talking about Robert Tumlinson's Uncle (PegLeg's Nephew). Don't you think he would have known the truth? He was closer to PegLeg than Travis (in the family tree). Why would Travis lie to his Uncle about it? By not telling Robert the truth it may damage his chances of deciphering the stones., of which I am sure he was to get a portion. Still doesn't make sense.

Good point! So what's to say they weren't both in on the story of finding them to protect the family name?

If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?

The logic being the stones do not name a specific location other than Santa Fe, or maybe horse pasture along a river somewhere to the north of……………(drum roll please)………….. ARIZPE! That could put the location anywhere, including the Superstitions which are north of the Gila river. Without knowing the exact area of where to apply the stones, then it is a matter of trying to make them fit a specific location. Even if Travis found the stones where he claimed he did, what proof do you have that they apply to the Superstition mountains? That is one hell of an assumption at best! Maybe they were being transported from a different location further to the west, and for whatever reason they were left there on the trip back to Santa Fe.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

Spongebob,

Let's say he was in on it. It still begs the question ..... if the stones came from under a priest's bed at Arizpe, then why spend the rest of his life searching the Supers?

I am a guy that works on what is MOST LIKELY. If the stones came from Arizpe, then I would start my search in THAT area. If the stones came from under a priest's bed at Tumacacori, then I would begin my search there. If the stones were found less than five miles from the Superstitions, I would begin my search there. MOST LIKELY!

I try to break things down to as simple an element as I can. Sometimes, as in the case of Jesuit involvement with mining, things get very complicated and can't be made simple without some missing document or fact. Like I told somebody else, the secret to coded Jesuit Letters lies in either their Breviaries or Sir Thomas a Kempis' "An Imitation of Christ". Figure that out and you unravel the whole ball of twine. Right now, it is all very incongruous and twisted. Find that one thing, and it will break down into something pretty simple, like ANY math problem.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Dearest Gollum,

..... The logic being the stones do not name a specific location other than Santa Fe, or maybe horse pasture along a river somewhere to the north of……………(drum roll please)………….. ARIZPE! That could put the location anywhere, including the Superstitions which are north of the Gila river. Without knowing the exact area of where to apply the stones, then it is a matter of trying to make them fit a specific location. Even if Travis found the stones where he claimed he did, what proof do you have that they apply to the Superstition mountains? That is one hell of an assumption at best! Maybe they were being transported from a different location further to the west, and for whatever reason they were left there on the trip back to Santa Fe.

Interesting. Of course Santa Fe, NM, was always a Franciscan town, and Arizpe went Franciscan after the Jesuits were expelled. These stones have always been claimed by many to be the work of the beloved Jesuits, but maybe the whole stone map mystery is a Franciscan gig. Wouldn't surprise me - after all, the Franciscan Marcos was first beyond the northern frontier in 1539 with Estavanico, a mission still clothed in mystery, especially after the 1540 Coronado fiasco. Anyway, the provenance of these stones has always been an issue, IMO. If Travis et al chose wrong with the Superstitions, where does that now leave the curious?

 

[Javaone]

Hi Infospongebob, Hey Springy,

"Best guess" is the only route to take in the case of the Stones. If someone could come up with something substantiated that lead to a different area, people would follow. I’m pretty sure that over the fifty some odd years of their known existence to us modern men/women there have been plenty that have tried to fit them into other areas to no avail. Not that it’s not possible – there is just no evidence of such enough to lead people in another direction. For me, I am inclined to stick with the Supes as the years are getting shorter… sigh

Java the hut one - Go Cards!

 

[somehiker]

"where does that now leave the curious?"

Wondering why so many think that the "Santa Fe" incised on the face and left hand edge of the H/P stone(between the two wrap around lines),as well as one of the Stone Crosses,as well as the "Cursum Perficio Map",(discovered long before the others and shared with very few until recently), refers to "La Villa Real de la Santa Fé de San Francisco de Asís",in the first place?

Wondering if Peg Leg Tumlinson,as a "treasure hunter",or his lost in a wagon fire "waybills",were mentioned in any literature or other documents prior to Dobie's book,"Coronado's Children"?

Just a couple for now,but I'm curious about a whole lot more.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

"where does that now leave the curious?"

Wondering why so many think that the "Santa Fe" incised on the face and left hand edge of the H/P stone(between the two wrap around lines),as well as one of the Stone Crosses,as well as the "Cursum Perficio Map",(discovered long before the others and shared with very few until recently), refers to "La Villa Real de la Santa Fé de San Francisco de Asís",in the first place?

Wondering if Peg Leg Tumlinson,as a "treasure hunter",or his "waybills",was mentioned in any literature or other documents prior to Dobie's book,"Coronado's Children"?

Just a couple for now,but I'm curious about a whole lot more.

Regards:SH.

Curiosity is a good thing, maybe the most important curse we have. Santa Fe was founded in 1608 by Pedro de Peralta (oops, another cowinkydinky) and was of course known to all thereafter in Mexico and points north. A mention of 'Santa Fe' in a document, on a map, etc., might well refer to the New Mexico capital. Now, the Horse of the Holy Faith? Quien sabe?

Regarding Dobie - good question. Boy, you've got a tiger by the tail when you consider Dobie. That rabbit hole goes deep.

 

[somehiker]

Si Springfield,who knows if "Santa Fe" means Holy Faith,keep the faith, or even the burg itself.
That particular "cowinkydinky" is just one of many that send us curious types scattering in all directions.
Maybe thats the reason that so many folks think that the stones were made by the Peraltas and apply to a bunch of mines.

The Jesuits knew that they were about to be replaced,most likely by the Franciscans.
A few ambiguous Santa Fe's,here and there,coulda sent them off to search their own backyard,if they were to discover the maps after the Jesuits were hauled off the premises.Personally,I don't really think that's the case but,Quien sabe?

Regards:SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote, in reply to Infosponge;

Buddy,

THAT is no reason. You are talking about Robert Tumlinson's Uncle (PegLeg's Nephew). Don't you think he would have known the truth? He was closer to PegLeg than Travis (in the family tree). Why would Travis lie to his Uncle about it? By not telling Robert the truth it may damage his chances of deciphering the stones., of which I am sure he was to get a portion. Still doesn't make sense. If they were stolen from Arizpe, Mexico, and Peg Leg lived in South Texas, why would they pick The Superstitions? If I knew the stones came from the Mission Arizpe, the logical place for me to start looking would be........................ (drum roll please)............................... ARIZPE! Where is the logic? We know the stones came from Arizpe, so we will spend the rest of our lives searching ...............The Superstitions?? ?? REALLY?

I know you want the stones to apply somewhere else, but that is not where the evidence we have so far says is "most likely." As far as possibilities go, they could apply to the area of Arizpe, or the S.... ...., or a million other places between Mexico City and Memphis. HAHAHA We just need to look at MOST LIKELY.

Best-Mike

Most likely the Superstitions, yet what about those two water courses? They may be rivers or creeks, but there are no such matching parallel waterways in the Superstitions. Finding a map in Arizpe does not mean that map must apply to Arizpe either; it could be a map of Guatemala's highlands unless it is marked with place names that clearly identify where it applies. There are other areas that will "fit" those stone maps, regardless of those who claim they will only fit the Superstitions, and which include those two water courses along the sides of the maps, even within Arizona. There is no "pinnacle" marked on them, no Four Peaks either, which one would expect for a map of the Superstitions after all. Besides, the stone maps were not found IN the Superstitions for that matter.
Roy

PS I will be absent more often in the coming weeks, nothing wrong just very bizzie; so I will fall behind in the discussions. I will try to catch up when possible but will not be able to keep up.

 

[gollum]

Roy,

The two waterways actually match quite well with the courses of the Salt and Gila Rivers (or the Salt River and Queen Creek).

Mike

 

[Loke]

Guys (and Beth!!),
The following is from thelostdutchmangoldmine-forum, June28th 2002 by 'Ron':

First I want to say again , I knew Kochera for over 20 years. I will relate to you what I remember he said about the saddlebags. He felt they were of 1870-1890's vintage. I believe from style , straps, etc. Of course he may have been wrong, but he did not feel they were from Mexican prospectors coming out with gold. They were in my mind what I envision as cavalary style. Remember the key here is they were well rotted from his description. So indentification may not of been too complete. I will also say that he never believed the massacre to of taken place on Peter's where he absolutely found the gold ore. He never told tall tales or in my opinion ever lied. The gold was were he said he found it , and you can take that to the bank. Again as I said I agree with Peter on two massacres, 1840's and again 1860's, too early for the style of saddlebags Kochera told me about. Also thank you Peter for your rendition of the massacres.

So - if the saddlebags with gold is from the 1870-1890's timeline - where does that leave us??

Per

 

[gollum]

Guys (and Beth!!),
The following is from thelostdutchmangoldmine-forum, June28th 2002 by 'Ron':

First I want to say again , I knew Kochera for over 20 years. I will relate to you what I remember he said about the saddlebags. He felt they were of 1870-1890's vintage. I believe from style , straps, etc. Of course he may have been wrong, but he did not feel they were from Mexican prospectors coming out with gold. They were in my mind what I envision as cavalary style. Remember the key here is they were well rotted from his description. So indentification may not of been too complete. I will also say that he never believed the massacre to of taken place on Peter's where he absolutely found the gold ore. He never told tall tales or in my opinion ever lied. The gold was were he said he found it , and you can take that to the bank. Again as I said I agree with Peter on two massacres, 1840's and again 1860's, too early for the style of saddlebags Kochera told me about. Also thank you Peter for your rendition of the massacres.

So - if the saddlebags with gold is from the 1870-1890's timeline - where does that leave us??

Per

Why do you have to ask? It leaves us with the Two Soldiers Story.

Best-Mike

 

[Loke]

Why do you have to ask? It leaves us with the Two Soldiers Story.

Best-Mike

... and how sure are we about the two soldiers??
I seem to have asked that particular question once before - without much success :-(

Per

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gully, for kicks the map can also qualify for the Tayopa north to Ocampo area quite well. The two rivers that correspond very well to the map are the are the Yaqui and Mayo . The same compass direction and shaps, maybe the same mines of that period... Also Arizpe is not that far north?? HMMMMMMMM

MAYBE our BB is right after all

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Loke wrote

So - if the saddlebags with gold is from the 1870-1890's timeline - where does that leave us??

..and Gollum replied

Why do you have to ask? It leaves us with the Two Soldiers Story.

Why do you automatically link that find with the Two Soldiers story? Were they on horseback or afoot? A man may use saddlebags if walking, but not as a general rule. Also, military horse tack was used by civilians <and Indians>, as it still is. What links this to the 2 soldiers, besides that statement of "They were in my mind what I envision as cavalary style. " Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

PS for those following our discussion here is a photo of a set of 1874 US Cavalry saddlebags mounted on the classic McClellan saddle; they are at the back not the smaller pommel bags which mount at the front of the saddle. They have larger cover flaps than other military type saddlebags as you can see in the photo on right, which are the earlier style used in the Civil War period (if this works)

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I don't assume anything. I read the story:

".........they bought two burros and pack saddles, bedding, grub, etc. To the tune of eighty-four dollars; packed up and started back for their mine."

That was the last anybody saw of them (except for whomever killed them). There are three possibilities:

1. Indians: their bodies were found stripped just like as if they had been killed by Apache. If Indians HAD killed them, that would explain why the saddlebags were left behind.

2. The Swamper from a saloon at the King disappeared right after the two soldiers left. When he returned, he lied about having been in Florence. Soon after some tough questioning, he disappeared forever (Well, almost forever).

3. In the Holmes Manuscript, Waltz told Dick Holmes that he had murdered the two soldiers and made it look like an Indian depredation.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

I was making the Franciscan connection to the Stone Maps years ago. Hard to make that theory float in the face of all that "Jesuit Treasure" hype. Educating myself was the only way I escaped from that belief, but it took a number of years.
_________________________________________________________

Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?
Reply To This Topic #639 Posted Mar 14, 2007, 11:45:34 PM Quote Modify Remove

Oroblanco,

Very well said.

I, somehow, ended up with two copies of the Walker/Bufkin "Historical Atlas of Arizona". I guess I really liked it.

The Franciscans were the first to place missions in Arizona. They were in, what is now, the northeast portion of the state.

It would seem that they had no idea there was a rich mine located near Tumacacori when they inherited it after the Jesuit expulsion. Although they built the present church around 1822, they abandoned it in 1848.

You will notice there is no sign of missions in Apacheria.
_____________________________________________

While we had drifted into Tumacacori, there has always been an obvious connection between the Stone Maps and the Franciscans. It's been overlooked for years, and I was one of those who ignored the ties.

Take care,

Joe