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View Poll Results: Do you think the Peralta stone maps are genuine, or fake?

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  • They are genuine maps to the Lost Dutchman mine

    21 12.73%
  • They are genuine maps to some lost mine, not necessarily the Dutchman

    69 41.82%
  • They are fakes, created with the intention to fool

    75 45.45%
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Thread: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

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  1. #1
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    The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Photos of these maps are online here as well as an entire forum on the subject, and a number of links online to them. Bob Corbin was convinced they are genuine, Tom Kollenborn was convinced they were fakes. What do you think, are they maps to the Lost Dutchman mine, maps to some lost Peralta mines but not the Dutchman, or fakes?
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  2. #2
    mx
    Nov 2004
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    I do not know, and haven't given them too much thought, but it does seem curious that the same man is the one to have found them, and at dfferent times? Almost too coincidental for me to be happy with.

    However, after the Tayopa thingie, I am in no position to flatly say no.

    Tropical Tramp
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #3

    Dec 2004
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    bob brewer has a different theory in shadow of the sentinel...i think he is right....g

  4. #4
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Greetings gollum and everyone,
    Can it be proven that Tumlinson was the original finder? Even if he were not the creator of them and DID find them, that does not automatically make them genuine. A hoaxer could have planted these stones at a place along the road where cars commonly pull off, and that is what the tale of how they were found is, that the fellow pulled off the side of the road. If Tumlinson were the original source, why would he have made them? How about to sell them for a profit? You said yourself the stones were sold (after his death) for $1200, which is a tidy sum. Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud? Was Tumlinson really back in Arizona every year trying to follow the maps, or was he there making a new stone map each time, since the report goes that he found one, then a year later returned and found another and so on. Look carefully at the stones themselves, and ask yourself why are they not worn, scratched and corroded more from being buried in the ground for more than a century? Compare these to known, genuine stone inscriptions; they almost never look so pristine. I don't have the time to post photos right now but go compare photos of genuine inscriptions with these stones - if they don't strike you as just a little bit "wrong" then I will be surprised. Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense, does it seem likely that stone maps would be made like these, then semi-buried conveniently along a highway (which had to have a number of men at work as well as equipment BUILDING said highway, and these fellows DO frequently notice things along the sides of the road) only to be conveniently found by a family from Oregon? Or does it seem more likely these are fakes, created for the thrill of a hoax and to be able to laugh at those who try to follow it, or better yet to sell for cold cash at some point?
    Oroblanco
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  5. #5
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Greetings gollum and everyone,
    Can it be proven that Tumlinson was the original finder? Even if he were not the creator of them and DID find them, that does not automatically make them genuine. A hoaxer could have planted these stones at a place along the road where cars commonly pull off, and that is what the tale of how they were found is, that the fellow pulled off the side of the road. If Tumlinson were the original source, why would he have made them? How about to sell them for a profit? You said yourself the stones were sold (after his death) for $1200, which is a tidy sum. Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud? Was Tumlinson really back in Arizona every year trying to follow the maps, or was he there making a new stone map each time, since the report goes that he found one, then a year later returned and found another and so on. Look carefully at the stones themselves, and ask yourself why are they not worn, scratched and corroded more from being buried in the ground for more than a century? Compare these to known, genuine stone inscriptions; they almost never look so pristine. I don't have the time to post photos right now but go compare photos of genuine inscriptions with these stones - if they don't strike you as just a little bit "wrong" then I will be surprised. Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense, does it seem likely that stone maps would be made like these, then semi-buried conveniently along a highway (which had to have a number of men at work as well as equipment BUILDING said highway, and these fellows DO frequently notice things along the sides of the road) only to be conveniently found by a family from Oregon? Or does it seem more likely these are fakes, created for the thrill of a hoax and to be able to laugh at those who try to follow it, or better yet to sell for cold cash at some point?
    Oroblanco
    Oro,

    You have got the story so wrong, and your argument as to why he didn't sell them while alive smells! Sounds to me like you are backpedalling?

    Admit it! You were mistaken about nobody knowing who found the stones. You were mistaken about there being no Peraltas mining in the Superstitions (I still have to post that evidence). Here's a little teaser about the Peraltas:

    "(condensed version) In September of 1864, Antonio Pablo Peralta and his son filed a virgin mining claim on a mine they called "The Valenciana" in the Bradshaw Mountains. The Valenciana was a rich gold mine yielding $35,000 in just over a year. however, it was in a remote area, and Apaches stole their horses and mules three times, and harrassed the miners so much that they abandoned the mine." Arizona Miner, Prescott, Nov 15th 1868. The mine was located on the slopes of Black Mesa, and it was a chimney deposit of gold in a grayish-white quartz. Now, granted, this was after the time in question, but the Peraltas DID mine gold in the area. Proof of the Peraltas in the 1840s time frame to come (I just don't feel like typing all that crap right now).

    Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs! PLEASE! Go back and reread your arguments!

    No, he found them all at the same time. I have read a couple of versions of the story, but in TE Glover's book, he gives the firsthand account from Travis' brother Robert (who helped him dig them up). When you say he found them one per year, that can't be correct. LOOK AT THE PICTURE OF TWO (MAYBE THREE) OF THE STONES ON HIS FRONT BUMPER! That picture was taken at the time he found the stones.

    Your idea as to why he didn't sell the stones while alive is TOTAL BS! Why would he risk his wife going to jail? Why go to all that work for something he would never realize a penny from in his life? Doesn't make much sense. He went to Az EVERY year for his vacation until his health deteriorated too much to continue, at which time he gave his brother the stones. His brother only got to go out a few times (after he got a partner). He used to hang around a local bar in Oregon, and talk about nothing but how he was going to find the Dutchman's Mine. Year after year. So much so, that they nicknamed him "Hardrock". He had little money, and no experience in desert hunting. He kept the stones under his bed. He finally showed them to his landlord, and went to the Superstitions a few times, but had no luck (doesn't sound like a hoaxer to me). When he became too ill to continue, he gave the stones back to his brother, who soon died. His wife sold the stones after his death, and died herself two years later.

    Charlie Miller (you might have heard that name), was the one who helped Tumlinson clean off the stones. He told Al Reser and Don Shade (I KNOW you've heard of them) that when they were cleaning off the stones, they still had little roots growing in the grooves.

    Heck I have seen grave markers of less than 100 years old which show a great deal more wear and corrosion than these stone "maps". They would have had to be in a cave or some other place completely protected from the elements to have survived in such condition. Use your common sense
    Use your own! THEY WERE BURIED UNDERGROUND! I think that would have protected them quite well from the elements.

    Also; if they didn't exist, then just who did all those bones belong to on the massacre grounds in PERALTA CANYON? The story goes that there was one survivor of the massacre who made it back to the hacienda in Sonora. His name was Pedro peralta. Please look below, and may I introduce you to Senor Pedro Peralta (looks like he picked up a whopper of a scar on his right cheek)!

    Mike
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  6. #6
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Gollum, you seem to be taking this personal so I will try to be brief. I was only expounding several different explanations as to why someone would make up fake maps (to sell) and decide not to risk prosecution. If Tumlinson did find them, not to repeat this but that does NOT prove they are genuine. There are experts with opinions on the stones both ways, and I choose to be of the opinion they are fakes.

    You say that the stones show virtually no weathering because they were buried? Isn't the story that one of the stones was only HALF buried, so ought to show a clear line of weathering difference? Besides, being buried is even worse for the stones than if they were exposed! Check out this photo of weathered Chinese gravestones, used to line a gutter:
    http://www.acclaimimages.com/_galler...1501-4422.html

    You will note that the portion of the stones which shows the GREATEST weathering and erosion is that portion which was below the soil surface! Now in some areas (like here for instance) a stone below the surface gets crusted and coated with a limestone cake, yet we find no crust on the Peralta stones either. If they were cleaned of such crusts, then they removed strong evidence of their genuine-ness and made them more unbelievable.

    Look at your own photo of the Peraltas - it says "massacre" in QUOTES. The name Peralta canyon cannot be traced back on old maps to the 1840s, so is a modern name. I have been to Massacre field, and it does appear there was some kind of a fight there - but between whom? It is likely that one side was Apaches but could even be another tribe, as to who was getting ambushed - who can say? Then too, I already told you that there were Peraltas up near Black Canyon city, if you had bothered to read past the first paragraph - well the Bradshaws are not a part of the Superstitions as you well know. Showing proof that Peraltas were present in the Bradshaws proves that they were in the Bradshaws, and is in fact a solid reason to NOT believe they would waste time in the Superstitions where Apaches might kill them at any time, when they had a paying gold mine in the Bradshaws. You have a logical mind, I do not understand why the idea of Peralta lost mines and stone maps seems to appeal to you so strongly that you take disbelief as some kind of a personal attack. I have said repeatedly, you are welcome to believe the Peralta saga and validity of the stone maps, even encourage others to pursue the matter - however I disagree on a number of grounds as already expressed. Can we agree to disagree at least? Seems I failed to be brief...

    best,
    Roy - Oroblanco
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  7. #7
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Hello again,
    Just an afterthought here, concerning something you wrote above:

    Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs!
    I took the liberty of reading some of your political posts, and am surprised. You are able to present an argument with good manners (at least up until recently) and use facts, opinion etc yet your political posts are of a very different color. I would suggest that we keep the political discussion in the political forum where it belongs. Calling names etc rarely will change another person's mind to agree with you, much less vote the way you choose to.
    best,
    Oroblanco
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  8. #8
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Gollum, you seem to be taking this personal so I will be brief. I was only expounding several different explanations as to why someone would make up fake maps (to sell) and decide not to risk prosecution. If Tumlinson did find them, not to repeat this but that does NOT prove they are genuine. There are experts with opinions on the stones both ways, and I choose to be of the opinion they are fakes.

    Look at your own photo of the Peraltas - it says "massacre" in QUOTES. The name Peralta canyon cannot be traced back on old maps to the 1840s, so is a modern name. I have been to Massacre field, and it does appear there was some kind of a fight there - but between whom? It is likely that one side was Apaches but could even be another tribe, as to who was getting ambushed - who can say? Then too, I already told you that there were Peraltas up near Black Canyon city, if you had bothered to read past the first paragraph - well the Bradshaws are not a part of the Superstitions as you well know. Showing proof that Peraltas were present in the Bradshaws proves that they were in the Bradshaws, and is in fact a solid reason to NOT believe they would waste time in the Superstitions where Apaches might kill them at any time, when they had a paying gold mine in the Bradshaws. You have a logical mind, I do not understand why the idea of Peralta lost mines and stone maps seems to appeal to you so strongly that you take disbelief as some kind of a personal attack. I have said repeatedly, you are welcome to believe the Peralta saga and validity of the stone maps, even encourage others to pursue the matter - however I disagree on a number of grounds as already expressed. Can we agree to disagree at least?

    best,
    Roy - Oroblanco
    No, wrong again! I'm not taking anything personally. I'm actually having fun with this. I just think that many of your explanations of what I have provided are very far reaching! Like I said about the Peraltas and The Valenciana Mine; Wasn't in the same time frame, but there were Peralta Gold Mines North of the Salt River (NorthWest). It is reasonable to assume that the peraltas had mines in the Superstitions as well. The Peraltas of Sonora were a well known and landed family, that were miners. They owned silver and gold mines. They were very prosperous (according to Ward's book "Travels in Mexico in 1827). Then, just after 1850, the family is never mentioned again. This coincides perfectly with the modern Peralta's account of the 1847 massacre destroying the family.

    The family stories say virtually the same thing that the evidence supports. The word massacre was in quotes because of Glover being picky with words. The Peralta Family history states that there was a horrible fight with few survivors. technically, that is not a "massacre" A massacre is a total anihilation (everybody dies).

    There is also the story of Ben Edwards, who was raised by his grandfather, who was in the US Cavalry. In 1865, his patrol happened upon the massacre grounds, and found a trail of at least 25 skeletons leading back to Upper LaBarge Canyon. At first, they thought they were the remains of Pima Indians killed by Apache. Problem was, one of the skulls had a gold tooth. Indians didn't get dental work. Then, under a bush, hidden from easy view, was the only dressed skeleton. Bens mother was an Apache, and chose to live on the San Carlos Reservation when her husband died. After his grandfather's death, he went to live with his mom at San carlos, and got a job there. Long story short, in about 1910, an old Indian (his uncle) told him the story of the massacre. The book includes all the names of the chiefs, and every detail of the fight (even down to the fact that they kept the horses and ate the mules). Over the years, ben looked all over the massacre grounds, and found evidence of Spanish Miners (see the picture of the Spanish Saddle and pack below). He also found pry bars and wedges used to split rock.

    On that same site, Mahlm and Silverlock found loads of float gold, but dig as they wold, they never found a vein. That area isn't even mineralized. More evidence that pack saddles filled with ore were spread out all over the place.

    Best,

    Mike
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  9. #9
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco
    Hello again,
    Just an afterthought here, concerning something you wrote above:

    Your arguments against what I have posted sound as weak as the Democrats' saying that they are stronger on National Security than the Repubs!
    I took the liberty of reading some of your political posts, and am surprised. You are able to present an argument with good manners (at least up until recently) and use facts, opinion etc yet your political posts are of a very different color. I would suggest that we keep the political discussion in the political forum where it belongs. Calling names etc rarely will change another person's mind to agree with you, much less vote the way you choose to.
    best,
    Oroblanco
    Oh come on! I made a joke at the expense of the democrats (not the first, nor the last time)! But I'm not a Repub either. If I had to pick a side, I would say Libertarian. If I seem a little flustered, it's because I give you information which you claimed didn't exist, and all you can do is come back with some claims of hoax and fraud for profit (without one iota of evidence to back up your claim).

    I make those jokes, because all your arguments refuting my posts are just you making some VERY non factual statements about the character of the Tumlinsons and others. And the arguments make no sense at all! If Travis T was going to go to all that trouble to fake the stones (for profit as you say), but never sold them. Refused to let his name be made public in the Life Magazine Article, never even offered them for sale, used them to look in the Supers for many years, then GAVE them to his brother (who kept them hidden under his bed for many years), the brother never tried to sell them because he believed that they would lead to the LDM, when he was to infirm to continue, he GAVE them back to his brother (who died with them in his possession). And if someone else was going to go to all the trouble to make them, why didn't they sell them for profit, rather than burying them someplace where they would most likely NEVER know if they were found, and so not be able to take credit for them, or realize any profit from them. Your arguments make absolutely no sense. I'm not being rude, just honest. It's a simple thing to do, just put yourself in the place of Travis Tumlinson. Say, YOU find those stones. What would you do with them? Would you want the public at large to know that you had treasure maps in your possession? Would you let your name be used with them in print? I would have to say no to both of those question (just like the Tumlinsons)! Would I secretly use them to try and find what they led to? YEP (Just like the Tumlinsons)! Their actions don't look REMOTELY like anything a hoaxer would do.

    DOES THAT SOUND ANYTHING LIKE SOMEONE WHO HOAXED THEM FOR PROFIT? Of coarse not!

    About the buried part: The degradation of the stones underground would depend on the type of rock and the mineral contents of the soil. If the ground has moisture in it, of course the stones underground would be VERY worn. How much moisture is in the ground out by Apache Junction? Not much! In your pictures of the Chinese gravestones, how much moisture is in the ground? Looks like a lot! I have some bit of experience with this being from New Orleans. Guess what? The Don Stone was the one near the surface. when he saw the regularly shaped stone sticking out of the ground, he brushed the dirt from around it, and saw the word DON. Now, if you look at the Don side of the stone, you will see that the DON side is more worn than ANY of the other stones. See the pic below. (the DON side was up, and the map side was down, see the difference?).

    Best,

    Mike
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  10. #10
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Hello again,
    I posted a very long explanation (again) of why I find these stone "maps" to be not believable on another thread:
    http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...29161.new.html

    Mike, unlike your posts, I have not been trashing your arguments in support of these stones, despite the fact that some are terribly thin and highly unlikely. I have attempted to appeal to your logic, on the basis of whether it is more likely that there would be a whole group of lost mines much less a set of four almost-pristine stone "maps" showing the route to them, all found by a single person in an unlikely spot as alongside a highway- versus only a SINGLE lost mine carefully hidden by a SINGLE man, which is why so many thousands of prospectors and treasure hunters have been unable to find it. Just using mathematics, if there were truly eighteen lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, then it would have been eighteen times more likely that at least ONE of them would be found and KNOWN today, yet none are. I have attempted to get you to examine the appearance of the stone "maps" compared with known 100-plus-year-old stone monuments, and notice how wrong the so-called Peralta stones look. Failing this, I have repeatedly told you that you are certainly welcome to believe the stones are genuine maps to long-lost Peralta gold mines, and to go forth and use the maps to find them, that I have no problems with your freedom to do so - I now sincerely hope you WILL, and succeed too. I would sooner see you spend your efforts and time on a better lead, but you are obviously convinced the stones are genuine enough to warrant a great deal more investigation so more power to you, do proceed and use the maps to search the Superstitions. If you find a lost Peralta gold mine, you will certainly improve your financial situation and that is ALWAYS a great thing. If you should fail to find a lost Peralta gold mine, will that change your mind as to the validity of the maps? Because the original finder and his brother, as you have told me, DID use the "maps" to search the Superstitions and failed to find any lost mine of any kind, but perhaps you will have better luck. We are at polar opposites on the subject of these Peralta stones, for at this point I can not believe in them unless someone uses them to find a lost Peralta gold mine, and it appears that only a failure (or many failures) to find the lost mine(s) will change your view of them. So we can debate the validity ad infinitum here, but it does not look like it would be a good use of either of our time. I am not willing to expend much more time on these frauds (frauds to my mind) as I have mentioned before I think the time is far better spent following up less-questionable leads. I posted the poll here out of curiosity, so it does not really matter what the vote is for or against - it is up to the individual to decide if he/she thinks they are genuine and worthy of further pursuit, or are frauds and a waste of time and effort. For my time, effort, travel expenses etc these stones are frauds and not worthy of further investigation. There are plenty of other leads which are not so dubious or open to debate.
    Oroblanco

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  11. #11
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Just another thought here, but a part of the belief in lost Peralta mines is related to a belief in the Spaniards and Mexicans abilities as superb prospectors. They were very good, but keep in mind that they were human beings and had terrific problems dealing with hostile Apaches, more so than the later Americans with their better firearms and larger numbers of soldiers. It seems unlikely they would choose to venture into a known Apache stronghold when there were other areas less dangerous. Then too remember that these vaunted Spanish prospectors, while successful in many areas in Mexico and the southwest, and despite some relatively minor mines discovered in California - failed utterly to discover the fabulous Mother Lode country of California. They certainly had plenty of time to discover it from the time of the first colony there until the Americans arrived, yet less than TWO YEARS after the Americans got control, the great gold strikes were made. So the Spaniards and Mexicans were good, but not THAT good not to mention they were smart enough to know how to stay alive by keeping out of known Apache strongholds as much as possible. This only serves to point up how unlikely the Peralta-Superstitions legend is, and even more unlikely the Peralta stone "maps".
    Oroblanco

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  12. #12
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Hey Oro,

    I never though nor said that I believed you were attacking me. If oyu go back and read ALL my posts about the stones, you will find that I amd the only one that has shown any real evidence of their history! You have your opinions, and won't budge (no matter what anybody says). That's fine as well. No hard feelings, but I just like to clear things up.

    Mike, unlike your posts, I have not been trashing your arguments in support of these stones, despite the fact that some are terribly thin and highly unlikely. I have attempted to appeal to your logic,
    Here is your argument to me after I had informed you of the story of how the stones were found:

    Why didn't Tumlinson sell the stones while he was alive? How about to avoid prosecution for fraud?
    Just how does that appeal to my logic? That a man would fake these stones, and keep them a secret from the world for TWELVE YEARS, until after his death? You stated that $1200 was a tidy sum. Does it really sound like a tidy sum for keeping them a secret from 1949 until 1961? And YES, he did go into the Superstitions several times, trying to solve the stones until his health said "No more!" (at which time he GAVE them to his brother). His brother also kept them a secret, even though he was retired and living on a small pension. He could have sold them and made a "TIDY SUM" but didn't and instead found a partner, and went into the Superstitions himself to try and solve them.

    First, let me repeat myself: I don't say that they are real. I have never said it, and until I can find test results on the age of the stones, I will keep my position.

    What I am doing is arguing a position that EVERY SINGLE proof of evidence of their being frauds or hoaxes has been either shot down, don't make sense, or are not reliable. All I can tell you is to invest in the book by T.E. Glover. He is skeptical of their authenticity as well, but presents most all of the good and the bad. If you are slightly interested in the LDM, you will love that book.

    I have never been one of those that think there were 18 Peralta Mines. Most of the different versions of every story I have read or heard have at most, 8 mines. The reason that some have said there are 18 mines is because:

    1. Of the number 18 on one of the map stones.

    2. The eighteen dots along the trail marked by a line with dots on the two map stones (actually 19 dots, 18 along the trail, and the ending place).

    Have you ever seen the movie from 1974 (I think) by Robert E. Lee about the LDM? If oyu want, I have a copy, just PM me your address, and I'll burn you a copy of it. VERY INTERESTING! It is made up of video footage taken during four separate expeditions into the Superstitions (two in the early sixties, and two in the early seventies).

    As for the Peraltas being in the area in the mid 1800s: this I do firmly believe. The legends match almost exactly with Linda Peralta's family history. Her ancestors are associated (through family history) with the Superstitions. The legend of the massacre states that one of the few survivors was a Pedro Peralta. She has a picture of a Pedro Peralta, that left Sonora after about 1850, and moved to Baja. The family story is that the massacre absolutely wiped out the family. they never recovered. That story is backed up by this:

    In Wards book "Travels in Mexico in 1827", he names the Peraltas as a well to do, landed mining family of Sonora. Several other things name the Peraltas in that time. After 1850, there is no mention of them. The Peraltas that owned the Valenciana Mine in the Bradshaws were from the Peraltas that went to California with de Anza.


    As for the wearing of the stones: you state that:
    I have attempted to get you to examine the appearance of the stone "maps" compared with known 100-plus-year-old stone monuments, and notice how wrong the so-called Peralta stones look.
    Your KNOWN 100 plus year old monuments are in China, and the pictures show that the soil around them has a high moisture content. I showed you a picture of a 4700 year old clay tablet that was found underground in the same kind of climate as AZ, that looks almost perfect. You seem to discount that. All you have to do is google Mayan carving, or Aztec carving, or Sumerian tablet, or anything like that, and you will see much older stone carvings that were buried for several hundred to several thousand years, and still look great. Look below at a 800 year old carving
    from Angkor Wat. It has been exposed to the elements since it's making in the early 1200s. looks pretty good, huh?
    How much a stone degrades over time is dependent on several factors (moisture in the soil, type of rock, weather extremes, minerals in the soil, etc). You can't just find a 100 year old rock that is worn and say, "SEE?" I can show 10 times as many that were buried and still look spectacular. I can also find pics of some buried for a shorter time that are worn more! Without some test results to prove one way or another, NOBODY can say for sure by looking at them. HeII, the guy who helped him clean off the stones said that there were little roots frowing in all the grooves!

    I don't know. I have written Tom Kollenborn ( I got his address and phone# tonight), to see what he thinks, and his reasons for his beliefs. I am also in the process of finding Bob Corbin's info as well (He and his wife are both still alive). I know you said that Tom K thinks they are fakes. His opinion goes a long way with me. He has a ton of first hand knowledge about everything to do with the LDM, and nobody has ever claimed he was a BSer. If Bob Corbin tells me that he had the stones tested, I will take his word for it. Until I hear from them, I am still reserving judgement.

    Best,

    Mike
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  13. #13
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Greetings Gollum and everyone,
    Mike you have told us that the first stone discovered was the Witch stone, then said it was the Don/Cross stone, well here is a tidbit from the discussion of the giant footprint discovered on your recommended website, The History Hunters:

    While on top of this hill he stumbled over a piece of rock slightly exposed in the sand below his feet. Thinking the rock was rather finely shaped, he inspected it closer and ultimately dug it out of the sand. What he had discovered was a rectangular piece of sandstone appearing rock, measuring approximately 17"x 22"x 3" and weighing about 25 pounds. This stone was the "Horse and Priest Map".
    Now dang it which stone was first? It does not matter too much to me since I am pretty convinced these stones are frauds (and cannot PROVE they are either fraudulent NOR genuine) but now it is just confusing as to which stone was first discovered as "sticking out of the ground" at least in part, which SHOULD have left a mineral-water stain line at the very least. If you do not know which stone was first, then just say so, as all we can work from is photographs but from your posts on the History Hunters you are well aware that a stone out in the elements for at least 100 years SHOULD show the tell-tale signs of weathering, even if only a PART of the stone was exposed to the air - despite the fact that stone buried in the ground frequently is eroded in a much harsher action due to acidity or alkalinity. This matter of which stone was sticking out of the ground is not really going to make or break the whole issue, and not terribly important but I am still trying to become a "believer" in these danged stones and just can't get past the look of them, let alone the unlikely fact that they would even exist in the first place. I keep being pulled back to that, whether it is more likely that there would be so many lost mines (which were apparently incredibly difficult to find in the first place, which is questionable on the basis of Spanish/Mexican abilities as prospectors, then covered up leaving no trace by the Apaches? Then not a ONE of these mines is ever found by so many treasure hunters and prospectors for over one hundred years after the death of Jacob Waltz?) versus a single lost mine, then even if the Peraltas had a group of incredibly rich gold mines, that they would bother to make STONE maps to carry around instead of on leather, paper, wood etc - now a STONE map makes sense, if it is engraved onto an immobile boulder, but as a portable map? Just weighing out the odds of so many illogical points keeps forcing me to the conclusion they are frauds. I truly would like to believe they are all too real, and only requires a man or woman to go follow them to find a bonanza in gold ore, but even ignoring who AND how they were found, ignoring the fact they just don't look right to me compared to how they should look, ignoring the fact that the finders USED the maps for YEARS to search for a lost mine and failed utterly, ignoring the oddities on the stones themselves like the odd mis-spelling of Corazon, ignoring the opinions of "experts" who have been able to examine the stones in hand and up close and stated their opinions either for or against, ignoring the fact that there have doubtless been a number of others who have also used the maps to search for a lost mine and failed, ignoring the fact that what evidence we have of Peraltas mining in Arizona took place in the Bradshaws, not the Superstitions, ignoring the fact that the stones show remarkably little damage and that NONE were missing, much less that they were found by the same people, they just strike me as way too good to be true. Wouldn't it be wonderful if these stone engravings were the genuine article? I just can't believe it - why in the history of treasure maps to lost mines, the maps which proved to be genuine and correct are a VERY tiny minority among many. Ask Tropical Tramp how many treasure maps to lost mines he found to be genuine and correct - I will bet you that he will tell you ONE, that of Dobie to Tayopa, and even that one was incorrect to a degree.

    I wish I could be convinced these maps would lead me (or someone) to one of the lost mines of legend, that we could find an old Mexican recorded mining claim located in the Superstitions and owned by the Peraltas, or at least a will in which a Peralta had bequeathed a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions to an heir, why we would have THE key to a massive source of wealth that only required the physical effort to go and retrieve it. I just can't get past my doubts on so many unlikely issues with the stones. I only expressed my doubts when Gollum used them as an example of how Spaniards would make a number "7" (seven) in stone inscriptions etc, and I did not feel they were a very good example to use because of the controversy over their validity. If only they WERE real, we would be able to SHOW a rich gold mine in the Superstitions and prove the legend of a lost gold mine in those infamous mountains to be absolutely true. However I am a bit saddened to have to say this but based on the evidence, the so-called "Peralta stone maps" are, on many grounds, far more likely to be FRAUDS. We can only guess as to the motives why a person would have gone to such efforts to fool people, but fraudulent stone inscriptions are all too common and we have no way of ever knowing exactly WHO would have done it, unless that person were to openly confess to it. Unfortunately, it is all too uncommon for a person who has committed a fraud to come forward and admit to their crime - for it IS a crime (in my opinion) even if it were not against the law, to abuse the faith and hopes of people who have done you no harm, to have caused them to expend their time and efforts as well as resources in trying to follow up a falsehood, the resulting disappointment, fallen hopes and dreams, discouragement, simply for the forger's own personal entertainment or profit. If I could find out who made these pariah stones, I would kick his arse myself, for having perpetrated so cruel a hoax.

    Gosh it would be great, if these Peralta stones were genuine wouldn't it? Why it would be a real simple deal to just pack your gear, head into the Superstitions and go right to a tremendously rich gold mine - then mine out (and then pack out) as much gold, (or gold ore) as you could carry - or bring along a pack horse or mule or burro to haul even more. To those of you (including Mike) who are of the opinion these stones are real maps, more power to you, good luck and good hunting I really do hope one of you can prove that the stone maps lead you to a lost gold mine. At the worst you will get up into beautiful country and away from the "maddening crowd" along with very good exercise, and who knows you might just find something. I can't get myself to believe in them enough to give them a try, so will never find out on my own. My apologies to everyone concerned for having gotten SO carried away with the debate over the validity of these stones, I did not start out with the intention of blathering quite so much!

    This subject has given me hours of entertainment and lively discussion so is not a total waste of time, at least for myself. However I think we have covered the many aspects of the issue fairly well, without successfully convincing either of us to a change of opinion as to their validity. I guess that these stones will remain a source of controversy so long as they exist, to tempt treasure hunters into the Superstitions and raise the doubts of the skeptic, until it can be proven beyond doubt whether they are real or false. I like to think of myself as open-minded, as ready to put faith in the old tales and legends of lost mines and buried treasures, but in some cases even a Tinfoil Hat man just cannot buy into it, and these Peralta stones are that kind of case for me.

    I just read your latest post. Whether there are eight or eighteen lost Peralta gold mines is only a number, one considerably larger than another, but still the odds of a group being un-discoverable versus the odds of a single mine remaining un-recovered are harder to accept. I still hold that $1200 was a "tidy sum" in 1961. You could buy a new or almost new car for that amount, then - today it will not buy nearly so much but is a fair sum for a set of stones that are not gemstones or precious metals. Now you say:
    First, let me repeat myself: I don't say that they are real. I have never said it, and until I can find test results on the age of the stones, I will keep my position.
    If you are unsure of their validity, why would you expend so much time propounding that they ARE genuine? Hmm...

    You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the opinion of others -
    I don't know. I have written Tom Kollenborn ( I got his address and phone# tonight), to see what he thinks, and his reasons for his beliefs. I am also in the process of finding Bob Corbin's info as well (He and his wife are both still alive). I know you said that Tom K thinks they are fakes. His opinion goes a long way with me. He has a ton of first hand knowledge about everything to do with the LDM, and nobody has ever claimed he was a BSer. If Bob Corbin tells me that he had the stones tested, I will take his word for it. Until I hear from them, I am still reserving judgement.
    I would suggest simply decide for yourself, based on your own investigations and weighing out the various odds. To say that "all proofs against them have been shot down" is not exactly correct, as these points are very largely a matter of opinion - with some exceptions and even in these exceptions where we turn to experts for their opinion - it is still an OPINION, and you must know that on countless artifacts found even by trained archaeologists in controlled conditions, there are numerous occasions where the experts are divided in their opinions of the finds. Use your own judgement - the opinions of the experts is welcomed of course but should not be considered as THE final word for you or anyone else.

    I wonder how many thousands of words we have expended here, so far? Dang it but if I could concentrate on writing that book with as much will-power, the thing would have been finished some time ago! However this has at least been an interesting (if controversial and sometimes insulting) discussion, even if we have failed to sway our fellow treasure hunters to our opinion. Far different from some of the political rants where the discussion sinks to the level of grade-schoolers calling names and insipid statements of groundless belief in or against some politician. I for one can appreciate that.
    Oroblanco

    "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" --(wish I had said it) Groucho
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  14. #14
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    FOR THE THIRD TIME:

    When I first responded to your claims that nobody knew who the real finder was,and nobody knew just where he found them, I grabbed a handy magazine that had the article I was looking for. I didn't feel like wading through Glovers book at the time. I used the story from the magazine, because it had the finders info (I didn't realize it at the time, but it also had some facts of the story wrong as well). When I finally opened the book, I saw that the story (as told by Robert Tumlinson who was there when the stones were found by his younger brother). I saw that the story differed somewhat from the previous version. I stated that the original version was mistaken, and said why (TWICE in different threads, but you keep bringing it up). I think I have explained pretty dang well now, that the only story I give any credebce to , is the one in the Glover Book, because it was the ONLY version told by someone who had ever actually had the stones in their possession. NOW, I hope this puts that to rest! JEEEEEZ!

    If you are unsure of their validity, why would you expend so much time propounding that they ARE genuine? Hmm...
    I will say this for the second or third time as well:

    The only reason I am doing this is because you originally posted wrong information. The same thing I do on the Political Forums. When I see that mistaken information is being posted, if I know something different, I post it. The big difference between your wrong information, and the political forums wrong information, is that your info was wrong not on purpose. On the Political Forums, the lefties seem to like to post highly inflamatory outright lies. When I correct them with facts, it makes me look like a Rightie Repub (which is not the case either). Sometimes it makes it look like I am a believer (see the Bigfoot posts), but that is not the case. I don't post the negatives, because others with a more extreme opinion are doing that. If I can find information that contradicts those extreme posters, I post it!

    You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the opinion of others -
    Yes, I do. I highly respect people's opinion who have been personally involved with what I am researching. Tom Kollenborn has lived in the Apache Junction area all his life. he has personally known everybody associated with the Lost Dutchman Mine Hunt for the last 40 years. Are you telling me that you wouldn't put any faith in his opinion? You stated that he said they were fakes! I can't find anything in writing to that effect, so I went to the horses mouth. If he tells me that he thinks they are fakes (and why), that would go a long way to make me think they are fakes.

    How about Bob Corbin? He was the Attorniey General for the State of Arizona during the time the stones first came into the public spotlight, and has been personally involved in some of the lawsuits pertaining to them. He has also (supposedly) sent the stones to the FBI labs to be tested for age pertaining to a lawsuit. If he told you that, "YES, I sent those stones to the FBI labs, and the tests came back as over 100 years old." would you change your beliefs?

    Yes, it would be great if the stones were real. Even then, it wouldn't be as easy as running into the mountains to the end of the trail. There are many variations possible in the clues on the stones. For instance, when you see the word "RIO" or the letter "R", it usually meant a mirror image code. That you were supposed to hold the map up to a mirror to read (backwards). There are no NAMED landmarks on the rocks. If you use where the rocks were found as the starting point (they were found at Queens Creek, and the starting point on the map is a drawing of the cross stone next to a creek), you would have to look for monuments (that's what I think the dots are along the trail). Many of the known monuments in the Supers have been torn down, or changed over the years. Lots of possibe variations.

    To say that "all proofs against them have been shot down" is not exactly correct,
    I never said that they were "all shot down". What I said was, "some can be shot down (finder unknown, location of find unknown), some don't make sense (Tumlinson made them for profit, but kept them a secret until after his death), and some are unverifiable (unnamed engraver).

    What keeps me from being a believer? No VERIFIED testing done on stones.


    What makes me think they MAY be real? The finder (and his poor brother) kept the stones a secret until after they were both dead. Neither Travis nor Robert Tumlinson ever attempted to sell the stones in the twelve years that they owned them (and Robert was almost destitute, but believed in their authenticity). Befoire dying, both men went to the Superstitions several times trying to solve the puzzle. A man who helped clean off the stones in 1949 said that roots were growing in the grooves. The former Atty General of the State of Arizona (with much personal experience with the stones) firmly believes them to be real.

    NOW ORO! I hope that finally clears up everything about my position on the Peralta Stones, and the story of their finding. And again, I never thought you were attacking me personally or otherwise (trust me, I would have been quite rude had that been the case)

    Best,

    Mike

  15. #15
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Re: The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

    Mike, the fact that Tumlinson and his brother BELIEVED the stones were real, and we can only infer the belief (it seems logical) still does not prove the stones are genuine, only that the Tumlinsons believed they were genuine. It is quite possible they were the first victims of a mean hoax.

    Have you been up in the Superstitions personally? I have, and spent a fair amount of time there - it is beautiful country; I do respect Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn but keep one thing in mind - neither of them has found the Dutchman's mine or the Peralta mines for that matter. From what I saw with my own eyes in the Superstitions, I could not support any idea of a whole group of lost mines there. There simply is not the amount of evidence that would be there if there had been a group of mines. If you have not been there, I hope you will take the time to go up and poke around, if there is any truth to the Peralta legends perhaps you will get lucky and can settle this issue for all time.

    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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