Stone Charts of the Superstitions

[gollum]

The "Kings Code" absolutely makes sense to me. Travel how you can to reach the site but when returning with the Kings share that path MUST be followed. If something were to happen on the return those searching for any survivors (and their gold) would know exactly which path they traveled.

cactusjumper,
Where can I find a copy of that interview with Kenworthy.. the one that he describes his solution to the stone charts? Thank you in advance!

Hal,

Here, I have to disagree with you. Most people know that I place great stock in Kenworthy's ideas. What most don't know is that I also disagree with some of his conclusions as to methods and meanings. Years and finds have proven him correct in many cases and caused me to disagree with others. I don't know if there was an actual "King's Code" or if the markings were personal and specific to each owner/operator. I do think that if there were an actual "King's Code Book" a copy would have "LIKELY" surfaced by now.

Roy,

What is odd concerning Kenworthy and the Kings code (for me) is not so much that his claimed source has proven not true,

Maybe you could show me one place in any of Kenworthy's Books where he referenced Dr. Lyon as the source of any of his material? I will save you the time. HE DIDN'T! He said that the sources of his material were various archivists from all over the world. There is only one person that states Kenworthy told him he got some information from Lyon: Roger. Joe believes Roger, and I believe Joe. Joe also says he has spoken to Dr. Lyon who denies having done work for Kenworthy. That puts us in a bit of a pickle.

Joe,

Maybe you could do me a favor and ask Roger if their conversation involved a specific piece of information, or if Kenworthy said he got all his document copies from Dr. Lyon, since Kenworthy and Lyon may have met during the time Kenworthy and Fisher were in conflict over a wreck Kenworthy was recovering in Florida? Hey Joe, think that might also be a reason for Dr. Lyon to not admit any relationship with Kenworthy? My guess is that since Fisher believed Kenworthy's Wreck Recovery belonged to him, what would he have done to Lyon if he found out that Lyon had moonlighted for Kenworthy?

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Quote
What is odd concerning Kenworthy and the Kings code (for me) is not so much that his claimed source has proven not true,

Maybe you could show me one place in any of Kenworthy's Books where he referenced Dr. Lyon as the source of any of his material? I will save you the time. HE DIDN'T! He said that the sources of his material were various archivists from all over the world. There is only one person that states Kenworthy told him he got some information from Lyon: Roger. Joe believes Roger, and I believe Joe. Joe also says he has spoken to Dr. Lyon who denies having done work for Kenworthy. That puts us in a bit of a pickle.

Um not to nit pick here but I did not mention Dr Lyon specifically. What Kenworthy wrote in "Treasure Signs" concerning his source was this:

Beginning in 1974 I began making contact both directly and indirectly with archivists and sub archivists in France, Spain and the Vatican. Mexico City's archives were completely "off limits", however, "arrangements" were made through a minister of the navy and I developed an outstanding "source". Beginning in 1978 "I began receiving notifications of "findings" from various archives. Not having seen the 'information" available, I would guess at a value and make an offer for copies.

In 1983 a letter arrived stating that 116 pages had been found relating to the King of Spain's rules and regulations on mining and exploration in the new world. Included were thirty-four pages of coded signs and symbols to be used in documents and on maps and their meanings. Also included were drawings of trail markers that Spain required to be constructed, "under pain of Spain", along all treasure/mine trails.

I have found that there are indeed Spanish royal regulations concerning mines, which (so far) is not in agreement with Kenworthy. It does bother me that he did not include his source materials even in extracts which could be checked.

Roy

 

[gollum]

Roy,

is not so much that his claimed source has proven not true,

Your own words. Kenworthy only had two claimed sources:

1. In his books which you have quoted. Nobody has PROVEN he lied in this case.

2. In a statement to Roger Newkirk he said Dr. Lyon. Lyon told Joe he did not. That is the ONLY source that is proven to not be true, but we don't know for certain if Kenworthy or Dr. Lyon was not telling the truth. I have put forth more than a couple of VERY good reasons for Lyon to have lied about a relationship with Kenworthy.

My understanding of the entire monument subject is that it is supposed to be localized in the area of the far North of New Spain. In the mountainous deserts of our Southwest. For the reason that mining could only be conducted for six or seven months out of the year due to drying up of water sources and the desert heat.

Roy, I have every Spanish/Mexican mining code available to the public. They begin with the Code of 1263 all the way to the Post Revolution Code of 1827 (to the present). What I have seen is a large gap in the known codes from 1584 until 1783. That's 199 years and several wars and Kings with no new mining ordinances? It is possible that I have missed something. It is possible that no new ordinances were made in that time. It is also possible that there still exist some ordinances that have either not been made public or have not been found.

What I do know for certain is that much of what Kenworthy claims as far as the meanings of different monuments is accurate. Roy, open that "Monuments" book again and find the picture of that big "FISH" monument. The one with the Arrow pointing at the dot, which is supposed to mean "One league to a water source." Because I have Kenworthy's research materials on the Anza-Borrego Desert Area, I have photographed that fish, GPS'ed it, sat on top of it and shot azimuths, and I will tell you that it is just a tad over two miles (as the crow flies) from there to Ocotillo Wells or San Sebastian Marsh (but the fish points at Ocotillo Wells). That was my first confirmation that Kenworthy wasn't full of it. I have more.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Did you miss...... "NUEVAS LEYES DE LAS MINAS DE ESPANA: 1625 EDITION OF JUAN DE ONATE"?

"NEW LAWS OF THE MINES OF SPAIN: 1625 EDITION OF JUAN DE ONATE".

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I did miss one, but your example wasn't it. It was the Recopiliacion of 1680.

What Juan de Onate did was publish the laws of 1584 that had a couple of changes in 1607. He was a mining engineer and one of the most knowledgeable people in the New World on the subject of mining. Unfortunately, he did not have any authority to write any laws regarding anything.

New mining laws had to originate from the King of Spain. If you read "A Collection of the Mining Laws of Spain" (free Google book), you will find a ton of small changes to existing laws during the 1700s until the big Recopiliacion of 1784.

Now, I haven't read this book cover to cover yet. I have gotten a good ways through it though.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

If you read "A Collection of the Mining Laws of Spain" (free Google book), you will find a ton of small changes to existing laws during the 1700s until the big Recopiliacion of 1784.

Now, I haven't read this book cover to cover yet. I have gotten a good ways through it though.

That is what I have and agree it is pretty interesting reading, for anyone interested here is where you can download it (free)
http://books.google.com/books?id=2Rg4AAAAIAAJ

The requirements for markings and monuments seem to be pretty vague, wooden stakes, stacked stones cemented with mud etc virtually nothing on any more complex sort of marks or signs to be left. I even have doubts about trail signs, for some very old Spanish monuments have been found that are very straightforward, such as the one in the story of El Naranjal which was a road sign that said it was a Royal road and had the names of two mines on it, Naranjal and de Arco (as in Juana de Arco, "Joan of Arc"). This does not mean that purely symbolic types of signs were not a regulation thing too, just have never found any such regulation that defined how the symbols were to be employed.

Roy



PS you might also find this one interesting, has some of the 1783 regs:
http://books.google.com/books?id=wmIuAAAAIAAJ

 

[EE THr]

Interestingly,the use of the word "cipher" has arisen once more.
As used in the "codes",are ciphers numbers,letters or symbols....or all three ?

The word "cipher" means "zero."

Also, any Arabic numbers. Also secret, or code writing. Also the key to a code. And several more which are related to these.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

You are correct in that there has never been a single "authenticated" document that describes any "rules" that even hint at what was said to be in the "King's Code". The Spanish were never any good at hiding anything, they wanted to keep secret.

Just my opinion, based on the history I have read.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

If you and I wanted to travel from Mexico City to Santa Fe in 1750, how would we be able to know we were on the Royal Road?

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

We would simply stay on the road lined with yellow flowers. Perhaps that's where the "Yellow Brick Road" originated.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

Hal---

That mark on the Heart does resemble the tall skinny guy's face, with the outcropping in front of him, too. But why aren't the grooves that make it---yellowish?

Below him in the photo looks like a man's head, with his hand over his mouth, as if to indicate something which is "not spoken."

 

[cactusjumper]

What about the rooster on the heart stone

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

We would simply stay on the road lined with yellow flowers. Perhaps that's where the "Yellow Brick Road" originated.

Take care,

Joe

HAHAHAHAHA

Joe,

The mustard seed trail was mostly from the Baja California Camino Real. Missions, Pueblas, and such were spaced about 15 leagues apart (more or less, one days horse ride). There had to have been trail markers. If you have ever hiked or driven through the far Southern portion of Az, you know that it is VERY easy to get completely turned around in a space of thirty or so miles.

If you travel the Santa Cruz River Valley, you can see trees and cliffs marked with crosses. This was, of course, the primary route for Mission Fathers to travel South to North. I have an old photo somewhere of the Baja California Mission Trail with about a two foot tall standing stone with a cross carved into it. The best routes between missions seem to commonly be marked with signs a Priest would easily understand. I guess the same should be true for regular folks. Maybe special signs for explorers/packers?

I don't know for certain whether or not any specific signs or monuments were required by the Crown. I do know they exist. Unless such sign/monument making was required to be kept secret, what would stop ne'er do wells from following the signs in the off season and robbing the owner blind? Nothing but fear of royal retribution. I think it is likely that each owner secured his own mine trail with signs/monuments specific to him. A lot of signs/monuments would have likely been common from similar areas (hearts, fish, lines with dots, crosses, x's, turtles, birds, etc). Who knows?

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

I have an old photo somewhere of the Baja California Mission Trail with about a two foot tall standing stone with a cross carved into it.

Does it look like this?



For our readers, don't expect to find many of these, for over time most have disappeared for one reason or another.
Roy

 

[gollum]

BINGO!

That's the one.

Roy is correct. Most of them are probably either in people's gardens or living rooms.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The fact is, as I understand it, that there was no "Camino Real" in Baja. All roads were the King's road. Each would have another name attached such as, Camino Real de la Tierra Adentro. Once Mexico won it's independence, there were no "Kings Roads".

If there is another historical reference to a specific "King's Road" I would like to see it.

No real search for this, just something I remembered. You may prove me wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

What about the rooster on the heart stone

Joe

I don't know about any rooster on the Heart Stone, but that image in your photograph looks like a cloud, to me.

8)

 

[gollum]

If there is another historical reference to a specific "King's Road" I would like to see it.

No real search for this, just something I remembered. You may prove me wrong.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

In "A Collection of the Mining Laws of Spain" page 267:

"Art.9. To the end that Royal and common roads necessary for communication between places (Lugares) of mines ........... "

So see, not all roads were Royal. There were a select few roads that the Crown maintained. Those would be the ones necessary for communication and travel of things important to the King of Spain (like gold, silver, and mail).

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

So see, not all roads were Royal. There were a select few roads that the Crown maintained. Those would be the ones necessary for communication and travel of things important to the King of Spain (like gold, silver, and mail).

I would only add "..and soldiers."

Oroblanco

 

[natchitoches]

http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/mountain.html
this is what treasure hunters univsrsity
has to say about the kings road. now i do not know this man who owns this website.
or if its ture.