Can the LDM be Found Legally?

[Springfield]

.... If you are not willing to deal with a mass of red tape and setbacks, or risk arrest by doing things illegally, then it would probably be wise to search for a different lost mine than the LDM or look outside the boundaries of the Wilderness Area.....

I believe the law strictly prohibits the filing of new mining claims within a wilderness area, but allows that current claims can be retained if the proper yearly requirements are met. You'll probably find that there are no current claims existing within the SWA. Of course, if the proper palms are greased, there can always be 'exceptions', but in the case of trying to file on an alleged 'lost mine', I'd guess your chances are zero. As Oro suggests, either accept the consequences of going stealth or look somewhere else.

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[EE THr]

As Oro suggests, either accept the consequences of going stealth or look somewhere else.

Or get the law repealed or nullified, on the grounds that it's purpose is obviously self-contradictory.

[Oroblanco]

EE THer wrote

rom most of the legendary descriptions, it would seem likely that if the LDM exists, it has been very well covered a long time ago, and most likely well grown over by now.

I don't know if a probe would be considered "digging" or not. It might just depend on how, whatever Ranger sees you doing it, feels that day.

I think, in all probability, if there were any definitive ore samples laying around on the surface, they would have been found by now, and are long gone.

The "red tape" thing is exactly what I mean by "Catch-22." Most likely it won't be found without extensive digging, and you can't dig without permission, and you can't get permission unless you have found it. Around and around it goes.

Sure, it might be possible, in the sense that "anything is possible," that someone could, at this point in time, just walk up to it, see it, and find something on the surface that positively identifies it as the LDM. But it seems to me that's a very, very slight possibility. The highest probability being that it's a Catch-22 situation. I don't have any reason to believe other than that---do you?

In answer to your last question, yes I do; I think it is quite possible that the mine might well be locatable and clearly provable as the mine of Jacob Waltz, just by what is found on the surface, with the odds increasing right after a season of heavy rains. The ore vein supposedly crops out below the mine in the canyon, and was covered up by Waltz, but could be uncovered by a flash flood - just for one reason to think it is not necessarily Catch-22.

Perhaps you don't know what a probe looks like, but if that would count as "digging" then so would tent stakes, and I would not hesitate to argue the point with any ranger. It is not a matter of excavating to use a probe, only pushing it into the earth. There are augur type probes as well, but not too handy in rocky ground and would involve excavating earth.

As much as people have combed over the mountains, it is easy to make a lot of assumptions. But most of them stick to the trails, and things change every time it rains or freezes. A piece of ore, perhaps missed even by Waltz himself, may become uncovered by a heavy rain storm. The mine shaft itself may have subsided some, or even the logs given way entirely leaving an open hole. A cactus may be growing on top of it by now for that matter.

The red tape part comes in after finding the mine - they are not going to allow everyone to just start excavating big holes all over the wilderness area in their quest. That is partly what led to it becoming a wilderness area in the first place, for the early Dutch hunters were not hesitant to use even dynamite to blast away at some site they felt fit the "clues"; Celeste Jones was even blasting down Weavers Needle for an example. So the regulations were put in place for a reason, and while they make it very difficult for us it is not impossible by any means. Don't set roadblocks up for yourself before you even start. Besides, why limit your search strictly to the wilderness area boundaries? There is a reason why the lines were drawn where they were, for the government geologists tried to exclude the mineralized areas from it as required by the Act, and geologically it is more promising. Plus there are a number of gold and silver mines in the surrounding areas that produced a fair amount of gold and silver. It is usually good practice to hunt for gold where gold has been found after all.

If you are thinking of pushing to get the wilderness act repealed, I will be among the first to sign the petition for I think they have created far too many already, locking up vast areas for the benefit of a special interest group. I doubt it will get repealed, but one possible route might be to appeal to get the wilderness area boundaries altered, if you could prove that a highly mineralized area was within them for mineralized areas were supposed to be excluded from all wilderness areas. Either way is a political fight, and will take a great deal of patience as well as educating the public, besides having a superb argument for your case.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, wishing you a very Happy New Year
Oroblanco

[Springfield]

As Oro suggests, either accept the consequences of going stealth or look somewhere else.

Or get the law repealed or nullified, on the grounds that it's purpose is obviously self-contradictory.

Let's see. Repeal the Wilderness Act? No support there from JQ Public, I'll assure you. Of course, the mega-corporations will be on your side - perhaps they will pony up the $10 billion you'll need to buy Congress. And all for the right to file on the alleged Lost Dutchman Mine, which you don't know the location of, or if it ever existed at all? I share your outrage (have since '63), but you're complaining about a spotted porthole on the Titantic. We have bigger problems here in the good old USA than the Wilderness Act.

[EE THr]

Happy New Year to everyone!

I turned on my computer, then went to make some coffee. When I returned, the screen was full of a multicolored "snow" pattern. I turned it off and rebooted. It comes on and loads Windows XP, but before putting up the desktop, it goes into "disk check" mode. It finds errors, then corrects them, then stops and doesn't put up the desktop. I cold reboot again, this time the disk check finds no errors, but also stops before putting up the desk top. After another cold reboot, when the disk check comes on, it says "hit any key to skip this," so I did. It completes loading the desktop. Strange. Maybe it's because the first day of 2012? Anyone else have a problem like this?


Oro---

I like your way of thinking. But there are a lot of "ifs" in your scenario about identifying the LDM from surface findings. But all possible, of course. I know what a cache hunting probe is, but they only work on fairly soft dirt, not good in rocky stuff. And I think an auger would be somewhere in the gray zone of "digging." I've heard it said that "you can't stick a shovel in the ground," so I would figure anything longer than a tent stake would be iffy. I mentioned drilling before, but I guess it was in the thread that the guy deleted. Do the rules state a difference between power tools and hand tools?---Or just "no digging"? I might be confusing that with the new California river rules.


Springfield---

Mostly I'm concerned with the concept of the laws involved, not just for the LDM alone. I saw a map of the areas that are intended to be off limits to people, and it looks like more than half of the U.S. land area. And they are giving it to the U.N. Somethng ain't right, there. I think if JQ saw the big picture, they wouldn't like it. Just the general idea is bad, but it also directly affects more than just prospectors and treasure hunters---there are many of these affected groups already against it, and if they teamed up, it would be more widely known by the general public. And it blends right in with the bigger problems you mentioned. We live in interesting times.

[Oroblanco]

EE THer wrote

Oro---

I like your way of thinking. But there are a lot of "ifs" in your scenario about identifying the LDM from surface findings. But all possible, of course. I know what a cache hunting probe is, but they only work on fairly soft dirt, not good in rocky stuff. And I think an auger would be somewhere in the gray zone of "digging." I've heard it said that "you can't stick a shovel in the ground," so I would figure anything longer than a tent stake would be iffy. I mentioned drilling before, but I guess it was in the thread that the guy deleted. Do the rules state a difference between power tools and hand tools?---Or just "no digging"? I might be confusing that with the new California river rules.

I am certainly not the final word on what is, and what is not allowed in the Superstitions Wilderness Area, best bet would be to check with the Forest Service rather than to make assumptions. Perhaps even a tent peg is now forbidden, or scuffing the earth with your boot. Or it might not be quite so restrictive as we have been presuming either.
Oroblanco