what would you do w/ the ldm if ya found it?

[pippinwhitepaws]

I am sticking with the mono rail and coffee shop...sell T-shirts and trinkets...
someone found the dutchman and all I got was this t shirt

 

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[Some Dude]

Considering that the legend of the LDM (and hence the perception) has grown to the fantastical claim of “the richest mine that ever was” it would be sheer suicide to make a public announcement “lookie here, I found it”. Someone once said, and not without warrant, “whoever discovers the Lost Dutchman Mine will be the most shot at man in Arizona history.” Therefore, anyone with any prudence would be surreptitiously working the LDM. Although that statement has been made before.

SD

 

[Oroblanco]

1) I would expect absolutely nothing. A person fortunate and capable enough to make a recovery is presumably intelligent enough to remain either totally anonymous or rigidly evasive. If any of the Waltz hearsay is correct, you can likely include him in the same group.

2) Because it's strictly a social event, like a local history group or spit n' whittle club.

On your reply #1 - you must not be observant of human nature, most people would want to announce it to the world. Look at how many have appeared on the treasure forums and elsewhere on the internet claiming to have found the lost Dutchman mine as an example. Many people want to let the world know their great news and great discovery. Unfortunately most of the claimers of modern days have zero gold, which does not help their case.

On your reply #2, then if it is really a 'spit -n-whittle' type gathering, why not call it an appropriate name, as the annual Pegleg Smith Liars Contest, rather than Dutch Hunters rendezvous? Also, I think if you took a survey at any of these rendezvous, you might find that a fair percentage certainly do believe there is a mine out there to find, despite the long-suffering efforts of our professional skeptics to convince everyone that the mine never existed. Besides, as our mutual amigo Gollum likes to point out, actions speak louder than words, and Waltz was seen going into the mountains and returning with gold that he sold, his friends certainly went looking for his mine, if it were all fiction these would be unusual, and if a 'cover story' it does not make sense for what he brought out was gold ore not gold bars.

I don't expect to convince you or anyone else about the reality of a lost Dutchman's mine, everyone makes their own conclusions; my reason for commenting at all was that I see plenty of the posts voicing the "it never existed" flavor, and few speaking up for the opposing view. We have many more readers than active posters, it would slant the impression given to readers if all they see are the posts of people whom do not believe the mine ever existed.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[wrmickel1]

Springfield,

Funny quote. But here's my favorite.......

"Someone someday will fit the parts together more successfully than we have done"-Jim Bark

Thanks
Travis

Travis,

Was Jim talking about me and BB years into the future,

Wrmickel1

 

[Springfield]

On your reply #1 - you must not be observant of human nature, most people would want to announce it to the world. ...

Would you? Hubris 'has been the ruin of many a poor boy'.

... I don't expect to convince you or anyone else about the reality of a lost Dutchman's mine, everyone makes their own conclusions; my reason for commenting at all was that I see plenty of the posts voicing the "it never existed" flavor, and few speaking up for the opposing view. We have many more readers than active posters, it would slant the impression given to readers if all they see are the posts of people whom do not believe the mine ever existed...

My stance has always been that I haven't seen anything that would entice me to invest significant energy trying to find a 'Lost Dutchman Mine'. In that respect, you haven't convinced me because all you've provided is 120 year-old hearsay originating from, at best, three degrees of separation. As far as my knowledge of human nature goes, I fully realize two points: 1) if Waltz had a mine and provided true information about its location, the public would never, ever, be privy to the secret; 2) that most folks want to believe the tale and will accept most of the lore on face value.

 

[Somero]

My stance has always been that I haven't seen anything that would entice me to invest significant energy trying to find a 'Lost Dutchman Mine'. In that respect, you haven't convinced me because all you've provided is 120 year-old hearsay originating from, at best, three degrees of separation. As far as my knowledge of human nature goes, I fully realize two points: 1) if Waltz had a mine and provided true information about its location, the public would never, ever, be privy to the secret; 2) that most folks want to believe the tale and will accept most of the lore on face value.

Not that I want to wade to deep into these waters, but I try to have a little more Faith in human nature. Perhaps some of the information we have today may have come from reliable sources, maybe those sources were Hoping that if the mine were found the finder may have compensated them for the information. As for taking information at face value, this may depend on ones own experiences in life, how much Faith can you put in one persons word against another, do I trust the word of a convicted criminal over a woman who made cookies. Not really sure where I am going with this, but I usually try to have Faith in people till their actions prove otherwise.

As for finding the mine, Probably dance like a fool then depending on what it may or may not contain, release the information or keep it quiet.

Just my thoughts..............time for more coffee

 

[cactusjumper]

Not that I want to wade to deep into these waters, but I try to have a little more Faith in human nature. Perhaps some of the information we have today may have come from reliable sources, maybe those sources were Hoping that if the mine were found the finder may have compensated them for the information. As for taking information at face value, this may depend on ones own experiences in life, how much Faith can you put in one persons word against another, do I trust the word of a convicted criminal over a woman who made cookies. Not really sure where I am going with this, but I usually try to have Faith in people till their actions prove otherwise.

As for finding the mine, Probably dance like a fool then depending on what it may or may not contain, release the information or keep it quiet.

Just my thoughts..............time for more coffee

Eric,

I believe the people who worked the Pit Mine (Silver Chief) for three years, took something out of there. They moved it outside the Wilderness Area and eventually purchased a legal mine. The ore went into that mine and became "legal".

There are some good reasons for that belief.

On the other hand, I have always said that is what I would do if I stumbled onto the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

long reply

Hola amigos - this reply ended up very long, so I must ask your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Springfield wrote

<in an earlier post I wrote>

Originally Posted by Oroblanco
On your reply #1 - you must not be observant of human nature, most people would want to announce it to the world. ...

Would you? Hubris 'has been the ruin of many a poor boy'.

A rather loaded question! I have, and the worst effect has been how difficult it is to keep the location secret when friends and especially good friends press for it; however it was a different legend less famous, far less rich and not the Lost Dutchman, and I do not plan to keep the location secret to the grave. Heck even the folks who worked on the infamous "Pit" mine only kept quiet for so long, and even a book got published telling the story now that it is past the statute of limitations. Those folks are not ruined today.

Your point however is very true, look at how many people have been utterly ruined by winning a major lottery, which logically should have improved their lives in huge ways. My bet would be that most of those lottery winners if given a chance would still take the win though.

<I wrote in an earlier post>

originally posted by Oroblanco

... I don't expect to convince you or anyone else about the reality of a lost Dutchman's mine, <snip>

My stance has always been that I haven't seen anything that would entice me to invest significant energy trying to find a 'Lost Dutchman Mine'. In that respect, you haven't convinced me because all you've provided is 120 year-old hearsay originating from, at best, three degrees of separation. As far as my knowledge of human nature goes, I fully realize two points: 1) if Waltz had a mine and provided true information about its location, the public would never, ever, be privy to the secret; 2) that most folks want to believe the tale and will accept most of the lore on face value.

Well amigo I don't get the impression that you have a burning desire to be convinced, but would add this much - while much of the info we have on the LDM is at least three degrees separated from the source - <for our readers whom may not understand that phrase it is not Waltz, not from his friends directly, but from people who interviewed those friends;> there is a subset that is only two degrees separated (the pioneer interviews) and the basic facts remain:

• There was a real Jacob Waltz, you can look at photos of the matchbox,
• Waltz did help discover several rich gold mines previously which establishes that he was a capable and successful prospector,
• that Waltz was in fact present in Arizona in the early days,
• that his friends also existed, that they also went searching for the mine, and a handful of other facts.

Perhaps these facts are not enough for you, but for others it is. I would remind you that in some other lost mine or treasure legends we have even fewer facts to work with, and this does not make them false or fantasy. Look at the Silver King story for one example - the original finder had only shown the ore to some people and gave the most vague indication of where he had found it, we have no specimen from him (a fellow named Johnson) no location documents, no assay results, we do not even have any document to prove that this man Johnson was in Arizona at the time; yet the four men who then went out to relocate it were successful. I would add that just as there are people who want to believe the LDM exists, there are people whom do not want it to exist. However I won't give up on you amigo, as I know you to be a reasonable and intelligent person, the right fact or facts could turn up tomorrow which would change your mind. But I don't want to bore you either!

Somero wrote

Not that I want to wade to deep into these waters, but I try to have a little more Faith in human nature. Perhaps some of the information we have today may have come from reliable sources, maybe those sources were Hoping that if the mine were found the finder may have compensated them for the information. As for taking information at face value, this may depend on ones own experiences in life, how much Faith can you put in one persons word against another, do I trust the word of a convicted criminal over a woman who made cookies. Not really sure where I am going with this, but I usually try to have Faith in people till their actions prove otherwise.

As for finding the mine, Probably dance like a fool then depending on what it may or may not contain, release the information or keep it quiet.

Just my thoughts..............time for more coffee

I have to agree, and I try to follow the same approach to any person; <living or dead> until they give me reason to doubt them, I will trust their word. To take this a bit further, it is quite possible that in the two most popular versions of the LDM, while some of the info may well be unrelated and does not properly belong attached to the LDM, it is also possible that some info is correct and could be important.

In other words using the same approach, as for example with one of the clues, that the mine is a huge funnel shaped pit with a tunnel driven below it, we now know that originates with the Ludy brothers story, so we have good reason to doubt it. But what about the clue concerning the spring closer to the mine, yet the choice by Waltz to camp at another farther away? That is not in the Ludy story, and may be true - just one example.

Cactusjumper wrote

Eric,

I believe the people who worked the Pit Mine (Silver Chief) for three years, took something out of there. They moved it outside the Wilderness Area and eventually purchased a legal mine. The ore went into that mine and became "legal".

There are some good reasons for that belief.

On the other hand, I have always said that is what I would do if I stumbled onto the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe

This small bit of subterfuge has been used successfully a number of times in the past, not always for a lost mine but for ore stolen from another mine or even as a way to launder money which was quite sophisticated. Didn't Bob C catch someone doing this some years back?

Apologies for the long winded post, wish I could have said it shorter.
Oroblanco

 

[Somero]

"Look at all these gold bars I found in my backyard when I was digging a pool" not that this would be believable, but yes, I have thought of more plausible ideas to "discover" a cache "out of the wilderness area" To do the same thing with ore would not be beyond the realm of possibilities either. Of course I would never do anything illegal or immoral, after all we learned when we were kids "Finders Keepers" till we were made to give it back.

I'll admit I am not overly knowledgeable about the LDM, and I may be naive about human nature, I do believe there is something in the Superstitions to be found (or has been found).

 

[Springfield]

Gosh, I didn't mean to touch nerves here - sorry if I offended anyone with my views. Oro, if you knew me or my history, you'd realize that I'm hardly a non-believer in the topic - not necessarily the Wallz legend, but 'lost mines and hidden treasure' in general. Fortunately for me, I was born a realist when it comes to trying to figure out why people do and say things.

Somero, you touched on human nature, which underlies all of our dealings in life, not just 'lost mines' stuff. One thing about human nature, it's a constant over the ages - 5,000 years ago, in Shakespeare's day, in Waltz's time and today. It's a serious mistake to assume that in the past people were less intelligent or more naive, gullible, innocent and trusting of others than we are today. People in Waltz's day didn't have our resources or presumed sophistication, but they had every bit of the same motivations, hopes, fears, and manipulations that we do today. The same goes for Waltz himself. How well do we really know what drives individuals today? No better than we know what drove individuals in the past.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Perhaps these facts are not enough for you, but for others it is. I would remind you that in some other lost mine or treasure legends we have even fewer facts to work with, and this does not make them false or fantasy. Look at the Silver King story for one example - the original finder had only shown the ore to some people and gave the most vague indication of where he had found it, we have no specimen from him (a fellow named Johnson) no location documents, no assay results, we do not even have any document to prove that this man Johnson was in Arizona at the time; yet the four men who then went out to relocate it were successful. I would add that just as there are people who want to believe the LDM exists, there are people whom do not want it to exist. However I won't give up on you amigo, as I know you to be a reasonable and intelligent person, the right fact or facts could turn up tomorrow which would change your mind. But I don't want to bore you either!

...not wanting to start something, but the silver king was an anomaly that one could walk directly into ...a bubble of silver 75 ft in elevation, an 1/4 mile around{ approx.}...difficult to miss.

 

[hooch]

I hung out with the toothfairy last night. Yeah she's real and has fake hooters. On her back.

 

[Springfield]

...the right fact or facts could turn up tomorrow which would change your mind...

Absolutely! We all need to remain flexible.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry...not my words... I forgot to add the quotations, oroblanco made that statement...I agree with him.

 

[Somero]

Gosh, I didn't mean to touch nerves here - sorry if I offended anyone with my views. Oro, if you knew me or my history, you'd realize that I'm hardly a non-believer in the topic - not necessarily the Wallz legend, but 'lost mines and hidden treasure' in general. Fortunately for me, I was born a realist when it comes to trying to figure out why people do and say things.

Somero, you touched on human nature, which underlies all of our dealings in life, not just 'lost mines' stuff. One thing about human nature, it's a constant over the ages - 5,000 years ago, in Shakespeare's day, in Waltz's time and today. It's a serious mistake to assume that in the past people were less intelligent or more naive, gullible, innocent and trusting of others than we are today. People in Waltz's day didn't have our resources or presumed sophistication, but they had every bit of the same motivations, hopes, fears, and manipulations that we do today. The same goes for Waltz himself. How well do we really know what drives individuals today? No better than we know what drove individuals in the past.

Springfield

No harm No foul No apology needed.

I'm sorry if I came across a bit heavy, I'll agree human nature as a group has not changed much over time. However, if you remove outlying views of extreme right and left, those impulses of greed and fear, most individuals fall somewhere in the middle, the need to be social and help one's fellow human, that sense of community and safety. I think that is deep enough into that pool without getting to far off topic.

Individual human nature, IMO, is defined by ones own life experience, again mainly driven by the need to feel happy and secure. The means to achieve this can be quite detrimental to others around them or quite beneficial depending on the individuals sense of right or wrong.

In the case of the LDM we can only read about the actions of the people involved and try to extrapolate who they were in life. My thoughts on Jacob Waltz are that he may have been a very decent man, a miner who was semi retired and decided to settle down on a small piece of land and maybe do a little hobby prospecting. Feeling safe and comfortable in a community with friends. Julia Thomas seems like a very motivated person, and chose to run a public oriented business, I would guess a decent person also (just don't get in her way) who took in a friend in his time of need. Of course she may have expected some compensation for this or maybe just out of kindness. Either way Jacob told her something that changed her life and she went in pursuit of it.

As for me, like I said, benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise. But human nature being what it is there is always that life experience that says be a little suspicious of others motives, generally most people I know have good intentions. Then again, some people I wish I had never met.

Enough coffee..........................time to go dig a pool

 

[sgtfda]

Keep in mind it was reported that Julia was nuts and would have visions telling her what to do

 

[coazon de oro]

That sounds like your typical Dutch Hunter Frank. Others hear some stones talking to them, not much difference there I would say.

Homar

 

[Somero]

Keep in mind it was reported that Julia was nuts and would have visions telling her what to do

Poor Julia, at least she had the distinction of being the first "crazy" Dutchman mine hunter

 

[sgtfda]

As they would say in criminal court. Can't use that evidence. Fruit of the poison tree.

 

[Oroblanco]

For our readers not posting

Somero wrote

[Quote ]Originally Posted by sgtfda View Post
Keep in mind it was reported that Julia was nuts and would have visions telling her what to do

Poor Julia, at least she had the distinction of being the first "crazy" Dutchman mine hunter

and Sgtfda wrote

As they would say in criminal court. Can't use that evidence. Fruit of the poison tree.

Well, to look at this from that perspective (legalistic)
A: - Who or whom certified Julia as insane? Or is the story of her hearing voices and being nuts, hearsay, and thus inadmissible?

B: - At what point did Julia become certifiable? If she was always insane, then of course it is indeed "fruit of the poison tree" for any info from that source, unless you can independently verify any portions and then only those portions would be usable for evidence; on the other hand if she became insane at some point in life but was sane prior to it, then evidence which originates prior to that point is not as tainted as any that originates after that point.

B: subparagraph- A defense lawyer might raise issue with the accusation and rumor, pointing out that Julia had proven herself capable of running her own business and supporting herself even though abandoned by her husband, which was a rather difficult thing in that day when men were the breadwinners and business managers. How crazy could she be, that she was able to maintain a business, even if it were only a short time relatively speaking?

C: - This is a lost mine case not a legal case, so this approach may be helpful, but limited in how far you can press it. All info relating to Waltz through Julia, Reiney and Dick Holmes is not even from them but from people whom interviewed them - as Springfield pointed out, third hand; other sources related like Pete Petrasch, Jim Bark, etc, are getting into the fourth level - none of this would be admissible as court evidence. Even such evidence as the match box and jewelry, are only reputed to have come from ore found beneath Waltz's bed. Based on a criminal investigation, the criminal would certainly walk free in this case.

Apologies for butting in to your discussion Sarge & Somero, just pointing out a couple of angles in that approach that you have probably already considered but mainly this is for our readers that do not actively post.

Last bit (for our readers) this approach, as if it were a criminal case, is useful, especially with the Lost Dutchman because of the flood of misinformation and complete falsehoods that have gotten added to the story. If you are to have a chance to find the mine and perhaps the cache as well, it would help if you can weed out the garbage that got added and work only from the evidence which is fairly solid. Very little evidence is absolutely solid - we have nothing directly from Waltz himself, all has passed through at least one other person and this is probably a factor in why the mine remains lost. But you can not make much progress if you strictly enforce the rather high standards of a criminal court case for any lost mine for the evidence is not like a crime case.

Mistakes and deliberate falsehoods got in the mix. This does not mean it is impossible to find the mine - someone had to find it in the first place, and gold mines are not like a treasure chest, they don't get dug up and removed. In a criminal case, time works against you, but in a lost mine case, time works for you. Precious metal ore deposits are natural and nature can provide the best evidence of all in the form of float pieces of ore, placer that may have eroded away and traveled down stream/ down hill etc. A heavy rain may uncover a hidden mine or a subsidence may open up and expose it. Other lost mines have been found on far less info than we have in the Lost Dutchman mine.

Sorry for another long-winded post - good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco