What gives this legend its "pizzazz"?

[themarkd]

What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Am trying to get the whole story from front to back. So, first, if someone could point me to a detailed synopsis, I'd be much obliged.

Also, what gives the Dutchman legend the "star" treatment in regards to legends? Is it the Ruth death and (lack of) investigation and the skull/body parts finding, or is it the sum of the whole? (or "hole" as the case may be )

 

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[Cubfan64]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Trying to put together a short synopsis is almost impossible because there are so few true facts to the story, but I'll try later tonight unless someone else beats me to the punch.

As far as what gives it it's "pizzazz," I'll give you my $0.02 since you asked .

1) Because the central story of where the mine is supposedly located is so close to a large metropolitan area (Phoenix) and is therefore easily accessible by anyone.

2) Along with #1 there is the dichotomy of how close it is to populated areas, and yet it's also a wilderness area where an inexperienced or unlucky person can very easily lose their life (rattlensake bite, heat exhaustion, fall, etc...). It's not at all difficult to imagine a situation where one could die in the mountains within sight of the lights of Apache Junction and yet not be able to get help.

3) Because there are so many different side stories to the entire legend. You have different stories passed down from different people, controversy from the very beginning (Holme's vs. Thomas version of the story), native american legends, Mexican miners (Peralta), Stone Maps, etc... So many different versions all seemingly tied together.

4) Because there have been so many documented deaths in the mountains by folks searching for the mine or at least clues to the mine - many of which have been under "odd" circumstances.

All these things together tend to attract the attention of treasure hunters and even those simply interested in the history of the lore surrounding the LDM.

I'll try to put together a synopsis without getting side tracked, but I'm afraid as I said, it's going to be extremely difficult to do.

 

[EE THr]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

I agree with Cubfan on all points.

With his #3, there are many different sources, from different "paths of life," whose stories corroborate each other, to various degrees. Stories supposedly from indians---squaws, chiefs, and children. Stories supposedly from ranchers, prospectors, soldiers, and Mexicans; some from families thereof, plus various others. Some of these "different source" stories are very close to identical, and some only vaguely similar, but nearly all put it in the Superstitions.

These legands appear to make it located in a somewhat limited area. This, to the point that it seems like a person would only need to pay a little closer attention to the clues, to get very close to the actual LDM, and then just poke around carefully to find it.

In addition, there has been much historical research into the characters involved, and especially Jacob Waltz himself, and some of this tends to substantiate parts of the legends. Which also gives the idea that studying this history, and being just a little more clever than others, could put a person on top of the mine or cache.

It is so very tempting.

All this, combined with the nature and actions of the people supposedly involved, and the many books and articles written about it, spells Pizzazz with a capital "P"!

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Hello,

In my personal opinion, it's best to get some books on the subject, and piece the story together yourself. That way you wont be influenced by anyone elses opinion on the subject. Of course there are some "missing pieces" and differences between the stories, but that's where you'll have to decide for yourself what to believe.

I recommend reading the following books.

The Sterling Legend- Conatser

The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Mine- Corbin (I've heard that Mr. Corbin is pulling this book off of the shelves, but i've recently seen at least 10 copies on the shelf at the Museum in Apache Junction)

Both parts 1 and 2 by Thomas Glover

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Travis,

"The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Mine- Corbin (I've heard that Mr. Corbin is pulling this book off of the shelves, but i've recently seen at least 10 copies on the shelf at the Museum in Apache Junction)"

Bob pulled all of the copies he could, but there are many that are out of his control. Because of the source for most of the "new" information in Helen's book, it's not a book that I would recommend. The source actually approached Bob and Helen and asked them to write the book, using his "new"information.

IMHO, "The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold", by Helen Corbin, would be a better recommendation.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Hi Joe,

I've heard you say that before, and still have to disagree.

If you are going to actively search for the Lost Dutchman, you are doing yourself an injustice by not owning this book. I have heard that some of the information from the source is false, but not ALL of it.

I base my comments on what i've SEEN out in the mountains while actively searching for the Mine.

Again, just my opinion.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

To the original question from my amigo themarkd;

What gives this legend it's 'pizzazz'?

I see nothing posted to disagree with, and only would add that Hollywood has played a major part in popularizing this legend in modern times. Prior to Waltz's death, the legend did not even exist, there was some rumor of a rich gold mine and that was it. Nationally the most well known lost mine was Pegleg's black gold nuggets, with the Lost Adams running a close second. The Doc Thorne mine story was known well within Arizona, but scarcely mentioned nationally. Then after Waltz's death, the story got out; for several decades no books were written but Pierpont Bicknell popularized the story in his newspaper articles, and these were for some time the only publicly available info. It would make an interesting study to examine how this legend grew from an obscure old German immigrant miner/prospector into world wide fame, today perhaps the best known lost mine legend in the world.

John D. Mitchell published an article on the story before Sims Ely published the first true book focused solely on the Lost Dutchman; but Barry Storm's somewhat thin book Trail of the Lost Dutchman first really increased the interest. Several of the early Dutch-hunters remarked on how many new searchers appeared in the Superstitions shortly after that book came out, and every single one of them had a folded up copy of the 'Trail' in a hip pocket.

Hollywood certainly played a major part in making this story popular with the movie Lust for Gold, based on Barry Storm's book Thunder God's Gold; however Storm was very unhappy with the way the Hollywood producers played loose with dramatic license, having Storm claim to be Waltz's grandson for example when he never made any such claim. In recent years, television got into the act with several different programs focused on the LDM; episodes of "In Search Of", "Treasure", "A&E" and the History Channel all did specials and reaching a very wide audience. The Lost Adams by comparison also had a movie done on the story, "MacKenna's Gold" which did not generate nearly so much public interest.

The Lost Dutchman gold mine also must be the most "found" lost mine of all; at last count well over 100 different claimants have all stated they have found the mine, with a dramatic difference between those of the early days and those of modern years - those of the early decades of the legend had, in almost every case, indeed found a gold or silver mine that was in fact rich, though none of them were apparently the actual mine of Waltz; while in modern years almost all of those who claimed to have found the mine have no gold to show for it.

This could be an interesting discussion, thank you for starting it amigo!
Oroblanco



PS - the Hollywood aspects were covered in an older thread here, Cubfan listed some of the television appearances

1) A&E 1998 The Lost Dutchman Mine
2) In Search of The Lost Dutchman Mine (parts 1, 2 & 3) <edit, 1977>
3) The Lost Dutchman Mine - 1973 16mm film documentary
4) World of Treasure - Lost Dutchman Mine
5) Various short video clips

This site has a fairly good collection of the 'core works' on the LDM:
http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/dutch.shtml

Two of the most popular sources are now something of a collector's item, Sims Ely and Barry Storm's first book; also while I do not disagree with what Cactusjumper said about Helen Corbin's 'Bible' for trusting any of the "new" information; I still find the book was an excellent read, certainly no worse than some others that have long been in circulation with no one even attempting to set the record straight, for example "Killer Mountains" by Curt Gentry. Bob Corbin should be praised for his efforts to remove the book on the grounds of the false info which came from a well trusted source, but the book is still an excellent read. So if you have a chance to read it, and keep in mind that an expert forger and liar had interwoven many falsehoods in the sources, it is well worth your time in my opinion. I do not reject it out of hand and it still has value as literature if not as a reference book.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Travis,

It remains a book that I would not recommend. How do you decide which part of the book is true?
Which of the stories will you follow up on? If you, or anyone else, wants to use it as a source, that's up to you.

I have a number of the books, including a signed, leather-bound first edition. It's a gift that I will keep forever, inscribed by Bob Corbin......before he learned the truth.

I have been personally lied to by this source, since 2002, so I can easily see why there are some people who still believe him. Believe what you will.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Joe,

"How do you decide which part of the book is true?".......You get your butt out in the mountains and LOOK... (And you don't discount ANY clues/sources)

I personally hope everyone believes you, and doesnt read the book.....

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Oh, and my opinion on the "Pizzazz".....

For me it's the Matchbox and gold that Dick Holmes had (I'll throw in "supposedly" to save any arguements)

That to me is enough evidence that Waltz had something.....Mine or Cache, but something.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Travis,

"You get your butt out in the mountains and LOOK... (And you don't discount ANY clues/sources)"

I have three generations of my family who have put boots on the ground in the Superstitions. I would be the third generations along with two of my cousins. I have been researching for 54 years and searched the mountains for 46.

While I did not look for the LDM, I researched the legend and walked the same trails as those who did.

I think it's important for those who are new to the game to know who the established fiction writers are, and the false "evidence" they have provided to the real researchers and authors. You, of course, are free to offer whatever advise you feel is worth giving.

The Stone Maps are an excellent example of a generaly accepted false story/trail.

I would agree that Kraig had a lot of legitamate information. IMHO, anything that he has offered up "evidence" for is suspect.

People are still dying in the Superstition's following stories that are complete fiction. Folks that know the facts are starting to hold up caution flags. It's the least we can do. People like Bob Corbin, Thomas Glover and Tom Kollenborn.......among many others, know the truth of this matter. Roy and Beth also know this story.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Joe,

I know there are people that have doubted that you have spent time in the mountains, but let's be clear, i'm NOT one of them. I know you know your stuff when it comes to this legend, and you've probably forgotten more than i'll ever know. We don't agree on most theories, and that's cool with me, but if I needed information about a story or a person involved, you would be on a very short list of people that I would ask.

You agreeing that Kraig had a lot of legitimate information, was all i was shooting for. I have pictures of things he described, that's why i'm saying not to discount the information. It sucks that he felt he had to "make up" evidence to support it. But my whole point was that i know for a fact that he knew some very real clues.

I talked with Beth last year, and she was giving me a "quick version" of some of the things that are false. NONE of them, in my opinion, have anything to do with finding the mine. They are just back stories possibly made up to ad credibility to the information. That's just not right. But I do stand behind my statement that The Bible is a must have for a Dutch hunter.

As for the people dying out there, that sucks, but it's up to THEM to do the research and prepare for that place. Sometimes there's water in a spot on Monday, and by Friday it's completely dry. It's a tough environment out there, not for the faint of heart. When I needed to find out the most reliable water sources, I went straight to Mr. Kollenborn, who gave me some invaluable information....for free......

Thanks again,
Travis

 

[Springfield]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

.... what gives the Dutchman legend the "star" treatment in regards to legends? ....

• Publicity from books, magazine and newspaper articles, movies, internet websites, museums
• Numerous well-publicized/sensationalized deaths of LDM searchers
• Publicity from the LDM tourist industry

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Travis,

If I wanted qualified information on the Supe's, I would go to Tom......above anyone else. Tom suspected the "evidence" that Kraig was presenting......years ago. He tried to warn his friends, but
they were shown "evidence" in the mountains, and "historical documents" which convinced them they
were getting the truth. Pure fabrication in most cases.

Next time you talk to Bob Corbin, ask him about the "things" Kraig showed him in the mountains. To be clear, I still respect Kraig's historical knowledge of the mountains and the various legends. If he ever writes a book, I would buy it.

Being a Viet Nam Vet comes with a lot of pride for many of us. When a "friend" lies to me about their service there, it's not something I will ever forgive or forget. As far as I know, it's only happened to me once in my life. It's a deep cut that will never heal.

Believe I will step off of this little soap box now.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[themarkd]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Great answers, guys. Thanks! I've jumped around on tnet and the internet, but it's so damn jumbled it's hard to put a "movie" in my head. Plus locating a "bible" for sale hasn't worked yet.

Seems many/several here have come across evidences of the tale (at the least). It's what makes it exciting. Just wondered why this one gets folks even moreso excited.

When the search becomes more important than the find....

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

TM,


The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz: A Pioneer History of the Gold Rush

Corbin, Helen

Bookseller: Bluestocking Books

(Mojave, CA, U.S.A.)

Bookseller Rating:

Quantity Available: 1

ISBN: 1879356597 / 1-879356-59-7


Price: US$ 44.95
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Shipping:US$ 4.95

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Book Description: Primer Pub, 2002. Soft Cover. Book Condition: Very Good. Text appears clean but May have marks or HI-lights, Wear to cover/edges, blue mark on inside cover, no loose pages, cover flared----NOTE:Standard/Media-mail can take over 21 business-days to arrive. Bookseller Inventory # 019771


http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...00&recentlyadded=all&sortby=1&sts=t&x=82&y=15

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: What gives this legend it's "pizzazz"?

Looks like the word is getting out about the future availability of Helen Corbin's "Bible......" Check out these prices:


http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?q...qsort=p&matches=5&cm_sp=works*listing*buyused

Some better prices here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...=&qid=1329347553&sr=1-1&colid=&condition=used
_____________________

On the other hand they have two priced like this:

$3,999.00
+ $3.99shipping New Seller: JoyPros
Seller Rating:92% positive over the past 12 months. (104 total ratings)
In Stock. Ships from CA, United States.
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New, in perfect condition
_____________________

Joe