May 08, 2012, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by cactusjumper
Not sure.....But I see you're interested in my post...The guy who tries his best to convince everyone that the Legend isnt real and they should stay out of the mountains....
It surprises me that someone who spent their whole life reading and studying a subject wouldnt want it found....?
I'm just sharing information that i've found. I stated at the beginning of this thread that it's all JUST MY OPINION. If you have a specific question about anything, let me know and if I can answer you, I will.
May 08, 2012 05:18 PM
May 08, 2012, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dirty Dutchman
Don't know how I could make it any clearer, but I will explain my position.......one more time.
I have always believed that Jacob Waltz had a mine in the Superstitions. I also always believed it had, likely, been found and worked out. I pick and choose which parts to believe of the myriad legends about the mine that have circulated since Waltz's death. Those beliefs are based on around 54 years of research and boots on the ground experience.
If I say something derogatory about someone else, I put my full name at the bottom of the post. I can assure you that the person I am talking about reads every post I make. That person has never challenged what I write, on the sites or in person, when we have met face to face at the Rendezvous.
Like almost every assertion I make, he knows I have the documented proof to back up what I say. If I didn't, I wouldn't write it in the first place. How does he know I have the proof? Simple, I e-mailed it to him. I used to consider him a good friend. When I realized he had been lying to me.....for years, I knew it was a one sided friendship.
I am interested in what you write, much like my usual interest in what bb had to write. I don't feel the need to apologize or make excused for that interest in this subject. It's a 54-year old habit. I am very far from knowing everything about the LDM legend, but believe I am far ahead of most newbies.
I may be wrong, but I believe I said you don't seem like a newbie. It was an opinion based on how you came on to the topic. As an opinion, it's open to being mistaken. Sorry you took it so personal. You seemed like a nice kid, which is why I tried to help you, where I could.
I have no intention of getting into a pissing match with you, so it would be better if you ignore my opinions, especially when they are about people I know very well.
Last edited by cactusjumper; May 08, 2012 at 07:35 PM.
May 08, 2012, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by cactusjumper
I guess I need to be more clear also.... I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BEEF YOU HAVE WITH KRAIG ROBERTS. I've never met the man.
This has NOTHING to do with my topic. Neither did your first reply to my thread.
I'm sorry your "friend" lied to you, but it has nothing to do with me. Go get pissy with him and maybe YOU should just ignore my posts.
May 09, 2012, 12:20 AM
Sorry about drifting into a DUSA reply over here. Truth is, I had a bit of a challenge last Sunday night, and I'm still not over it.
May 09, 2012, 10:42 PM
WOW!! Great job Dirty Dutchman. Hope you find the rest.
May 10, 2012, 09:25 PM
I have been involved in some recent discussions about the Holmes Manuscript. It's my theory that the italicized words in the Manuscript are the ACTUAL words that came from Waltz. The rest is just "fill" added by whoever helped Brownie (my opinion) write the Manuscript. Joe Ribaudo asked Thomas Glover about this and, the way I read his response, was that the parts that he (and Helen Corbin) italicized where in "quotation" marks in the original writings. To me this confirms my theory about the italicized words (or quoted words) are the ONLY words that Waltz actually said to Dick Holmes on his deathbed.
I'll get to my point....
I reread the Holmes Manuscript and an italicized sentence stood out...
"Next morning I went with them to the place about a quarter of a mile up the canyon from the camp"
Before and after this sentence is all fill in my opinion.
I stated earlier in a post on this thread that I believed I had located the "Mexican Camp" that Waltz referred to twice in the "German Clues"
1) "Up there (or, there above) you will find a (the) Mexican camp"
2) "The Mexicans camp(ed) above (on high)"
I decided to check GoogleEarth and see how far the "Mexican camp" I found was to the area I believe the mine is. According to GoogleEarth, it's......
Now, this DOES NOT mean that I believe the "murderer" version of the Holmes Manuscript. But it did make me wonder for a second......
It's my opinion that Waltz was telling Dick about getting to the correct location of their camp, and then the next morning going to the mine for the first time with his partner and the Mexican crew. (my version)
The yellow line on my photo shows the distance from the area of the camp I found (and the marker I showed earlier) to the area I believe the mine is located. Remember it's also my opinion that this camp is where the Profile Map was drawn from.
I'm also including my "Profile arrowed Map" so you don't have to look at my earlier post.
May 11, 2012, 03:42 PM
I would totally buy that book, by the way.
May 27, 2012, 12:53 PM
The mine and anything to do with it was buried and landscaped by the Apache men and woman over a period of three months during the winter of 1893.
Waltz only went back long enough to retrieve a single large cache that was left behind on the last trip during which Wiser was killed; years later.
Waltz said that only the December sunset would shine into the mouth of the mine.
The stone head above the mine was toppled over into the pit at the time of it's burial and landscaping. The little cave with house and gold bars was also buried away from sight.
Only a monster would send his friends and neighbors out into the wilderness to be killed by natives and being the nice guy that he was, everyone ended up running around on a wild goose chase instead...what a mess.
The real clues read more like go to this point and make a right.....can't miss it, that is until 1893.
In the years after after 1893, the Peralta boys returned to a shaft in a neighboring canyon at the other end of the same vein...not the bolder covered funnel.
Fresco refers to a canyon with a waterfall and small forest of oaks all around the mine site. All dried up, dead and dust in the wind sir.........
On a more positive note, The Peraltas mapped using mostly natural markers and monuments of which the natives were either not aware of or concerned with. These markers still stand today other than a few more obvious ones that fell at the hands of modern men and their prospects. Then there is the bread trail of small out of place trail stones that predate the Peralta bunch.
Last edited by Twisted Fork; Jun 02, 2012 at 02:16 AM.
May 27, 2012, 01:14 PM
I hear ya, with the same old crap you always spit out. Put up some proof, like I have. Otherwise you might as well type "Blah blah blah....."
May 27, 2012, 03:21 PM
Waltz was neither wealthy nor was he sitting on piles of gold. Lets get real here sir. He gathered a little glory and then became just like anyone else other than a fantastic story of which the town folk would not let die.
Originally Posted by Dirty Dutchman
Straight info from the oldest of treasure books out of Arizona's own Library Archives sir. If I haven't posted enough evidence here over the years, evidence that suits to your liking that is, one might go as far as to suggest finding a new hobby to spend your lifetime on. Just a thought.
I am probably the only soul to have sat on the funnel since it was buried. Middle of nowhere sir..... Ah, to return and smoke a fatty there, one more time.
Last edited by Twisted Fork; May 27, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
May 27, 2012, 03:40 PM
Ill stick with this "Hobby", sir. There is no Black legion, no scary spirits. Just a beautiful mountain range with a lot of history. The "Face that looks down on the mine" is still there. I have a great picture of it. It hasn't been toppled into the mine.
Ill stick with the real clues and stories, you stick with the "Fatty". We'll see who gets there first...
May 27, 2012, 04:08 PM
If the 4 peaks area location of the old cowboy spring was still available as trail knowledge, and one were headed Easterly towards it, they would only have to make a right turn and head for the only large pasture in the area and they would be there. Roosevelt killed the springs including Fresco which in turn killed the pasture it flowed into at the "North End of the RIO"
I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River I Pasture at the North end of the River........
Wandering dead............a very real threat in the middle of nowhere. Seeing is beleiving.
Last edited by Twisted Fork; May 27, 2012 at 04:13 PM.
May 27, 2012, 04:40 PM
Show us some PROOF Show us some PROOF Show us some PROOF Show us some PROOF Show us some PROOF....
If you're not going to back it up, stop ruining my post with your BS...
May 27, 2012, 06:47 PM
Reminds one of Blindbowman doesn't it Dirty? I gave up listening to TF awhile back - he has the locations to numerous treasures, isn't able to show any proof of anything and yet continues to post comments typical of people like BB where he's the ONLY person to have ever seen or done certain things. Delusions of grandeur imho. Harmless, but enough to cause one to shake his or her head wondering what the point of their posts are.
"There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)
May 27, 2012, 07:20 PM
Sorry, I'm not an armchair prospector. If one will take notice, I have been repeating the same thing in different ways, from different angles, over and over again; just as the maps and markers read. I have spent thousands of hours on the very trails they packed out on. I have prayed amongst the trees wherein they were butchered by savages as they packed up their gold to head home. And, I have seen their spirits wandering the fields.
Originally Posted by Dirty Dutchman
As a diviner, I must feel blessed to be able to walk straight to any site, anywhere, and nearly with my eyes closed as the spirit leads on from 5 miles out. When a willow bough bends on its own, nearly breaking as the bark twists apart between your finger tips, you are forced to wonder about all of it and now the pile of ore laying on the ground at your feet. Was it covered with blood 150 years ago? The reality is out there on the trails, not in any book or pipe dream that might visit your favorite arm chair from time to time.
Pictures speak volumes, finding the mine is priceless and my little secret will belong to no other unless they get off their @#% and search it out for themselves. Why else would I give up even one single clue unless it were not for any other reason than for the love of the hunt itself. NO other motive will take you there my friend. If you lust for the gold, you will perish and one day find yourself wandering around out there with the rest of the dead.
I know of several authors who are making a living writing books for the ignorant; nothing in them is much real and most of it is built on the stories from other books rather than direct descendants I have been so fortunate as to hear from myself. All of the Gold is God's sir.
Let us preserve in all honesty, the realities of this fine legend we are all gifted to know of.
There are no secrets, only mysteries.
Last edited by Twisted Fork; May 27, 2012 at 07:51 PM.
May 27, 2012, 09:07 PM
I would love to share more pictures here for sure as I love everything the guys and gals bring to share on TreasureNet, but damned if I don't find myself being followed or surprised out there more and more as time goes on. Scrimping and saving the hard earned cash for three months can become a kick in the pants when you finally make it there to camp only to find some skippy folks that don't appear to have any other reason to be there other than to continuously appear out of nowhere. So it's home you go laddy, tuff luck sir...
Originally Posted by Cubfan64
I don't own any of these half dozen or so Spanish sites and the folks who do own them are to old to go out anymore and some of their offspring I have crossed paths with are mad with the lust. One cannot just go out and dig like they used to back some years ago. Up until the 70's, you could just go and get a tractor and get to it in a reasonable manner. Now if you move more than a square yard of material, you could be facing prison time.
I have known no greater heartache than when I had cracked an old Jesuit code years ago by shooting compass quads across markers in an untouched area. I was as high as one could get on the subject of lost Jesuit booty. Through the experience of finding the mine and two of the caches, I contacted the property owner for further permission to blast rubble out from a buried portal that had been converted into a concealed air vent (an original native entry).
They wanted to know all about it, but I could see right away that I would lose complete control of the entire scenario if I spilled any more pearls so we finally left off with an offer to sell the ground to me should I wish to continue. Their all passed on now at this time so I can breath a little easier. The property is still in the family per say. It hurts buddy, to say the least. There is much to be gained there. When you really find something, watch out!
Last edited by Twisted Fork; May 27, 2012 at 09:37 PM.
May 28, 2012, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Twisted Fork
"I know of several authors who are making a living writing books for the ignorant; nothing in them is much real and most of it is built on the stories from other books rather than direct descendants I have been so fortunate as to hear from myself. All of the Gold is God's sir."
Are we back to the George Mason Adams fantasy again? I hope you have boned-up on the family history this time.
All things of this earth were put here for man's use. IMHO, God has no use for such things.
May 28, 2012, 06:24 PM
You may have me believing in these spirits after all..... I don't know if you've noticed, but I think you actually captured the ghost of Jacob Waltz in one of your photos. He's wearing Camo and standing in front of that Cave....
May 28, 2012, 10:41 PM
Na, that's just Leonard posing as we enter one of the main chambers of the Peralta's most Northerly mines (He'll like that one). The mine was located in the 70's but soon killed the finder in a collapse. The tunnel sections shown above are remnants of their work by early methods. Probably went lost after the massacre of 1857 on Chicken Creek as there is little evidence of their presence after this timeline. Digs there were charted in the 1770's. Peralta knew his maps and soon located numerous mines that were handed down to him as the finder, through the last of Jesuit sources. 1 of 8 places.
Originally Posted by Dirty Dutchman
It's no joke guys. If one will take the time to look over all of the paper and stone maps left to us from old, they must admit that the mine in question is in no doubt along the Salt River, or maybe their just plain lost at this time. "3 days ride from Phoenix" or "Three days ride towards the rising sun" from hieroglyphic canyon. Your supposed to be looking for "The Priest who stands by the River" (a massive Cactus, standing all alone with arms out stretched). The old military trail is much older and longer than portrayed. It followed the Salt and dumped out on the trail to Show Low.
The Adams story was handed down and describes in perfect detail, the approach and various landmarks that do not exist anywhere else other than the canyon where the funnel and vault are located. His instructions were step by step. He found the cache below where the water from Fresco Spring ran over some rocks and dropped down below some 80 feet into a deep gully filled with sand and gold nuggets torn from the rock in chunks of transparent rose quartz. I found two, 3 foot high piles of dressed pink quartz the size of redwood chips, gathered from the walls of the funnel and stacked up down in the bottom of the canyon as they stood on either side of cache site #1. In 1883/84, it took the old guy 5 trips with several horses to get all of the ore back to town. We have diaries that tell of them handling the gold themselves, after he returned to the ranch in Show Low. His last trip included an Apache arrow in his belly.
Last edited by Twisted Fork; May 28, 2012 at 11:19 PM.
May 28, 2012, 11:10 PM
You know what's funny to me?... How complicated everybody tries to make this legend. It's SIMPLE! There are maps that match. Clues that match. Stories that match.
You just have to be smart enough to keep it simple. No ghosts. No evil spirits. No holding maps in a mirror. No Indians waiting to kill you. No one beheading people. Just a simple story.
Waltz left a REAL story. And no one will scare me out of the mountains. Your crap might work on some people, but I've spent many nights alone out there, and it's been just as peaceful as I could have asked for. People like you are a detrimate to the Treasure Hunting community. Just trying to scare people away with your BS. Maybe I'll run into you out in the hills one day..... We'll see if your "spirits" will run me off, or if you run off..... I'm betting I can guess what will happen. That is if you could ever actually find the correct spot.... I doubt if someone like you has ever even set foot in the Superstitions.... Sir...
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