Apache of the Superstitions

Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
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Here is what (spirit) wrote on another forum about the Superstition mountains.

The Superstition mountains were not the homeland of Apache clans but were used by many Apache clans for gathering food, medicine and materials when the seasons and need were to the advantage. You must understand the Apache did not all live together in one village with one chief as is portrayed in the movies and TV. There were hundreds of clans spread out over hundreds of square miles, each clan acting as one with neighboring clans or individually as a single clan.

I am decendant of the Tuhana-ne clan, across the water people of the Tiis-Ebah band of Pinal Apache. We were closely related to one other clan, the Tuagaidn, Whitewater people. Both clans used the Superstition mountains for food gathering when the seasons were right.

The Superstitions were not known to our clan as such. They were known to us as digo, a rough rocky country, and also as tset-a-go, place of refuge sought by outlaws or renegardes. There were Apache clans who lived in the Mazatzal range between Wikedjasa, chopped up mountain (Four Peaks) and the Salt river. These were the Inostcoodjin and Tishiyosikadn clans, they lived intermixed with the Yavapai and later became totally absorbed by them. These clans used the Superstition mountains much. Among the Apache were clans which were always restless, always on the move, never settled, these clans were called Nakaye, people who travel from place to place. One of these clans were the Sagune, who seemed at times to live in those mountains.

The Chiricahua also were in those mountains. When San Carlos reservation was first made by the white soldiers it was not made for the western Apache, the Pinal, Tontos, Apache Peaks or San Carlos, it was made for the Chiricahua. Some Chiricahua would slip off the reservation and enter the tset-a-go, this is why those mountains became known as a place of refuge for renegades.

The moutains and places in the Superstitions today have different names from what the Apache clans knew them so it is not to say which mountains were used and at which times of the year. One mountain in particular was used for gathering agave and for making mescal. It was abundant with agave in the season when the blood was in the plants. Some of the mescal pits used in the old days can still be seen on this mountain, the same pits would be used year after year, sometimes for a hundred years or more. Our clan knew this mountain as dzil daho-il, other clans knew it as dzil gageedilje, ravens fly over mountain.

Still other individual Apache would travel to those mountains at certain times for chidin biyi, spirit power or for bil chinah agolzaa binaideel, vision spirits.

spirit


 

Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
93
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Here is what spirit wrote in another forum about the Superstition mountains and sacred sights.

In the old days there were over 60 clans of the Tiss-Ebah Apache. Tiss-Ebah were Pinal Apache to the white man. Clans were made up of some 20-100 people. These clans were spread out over many, many square miles. Some clans were related and lived close to other clans but many clans lived and acted individually of all other clans.

The place names of certain mountains or valleys or places were not common knowledge to all the clans. Sometimes one clan would call a certain place by one name and another clan by another name. There was no Apache atlas the clans could check to see what a certain place was “officially” called. It is a common misconception that all Apache clans were closely linked with each other and what one clan knew, all other clans also knew. When you understand this fact, you will begin to understand the Apache as they truly were, not as you have read in books, seen them on TV or in the movies.

The mountain you asked about is today called Tortilla mountain on the white man’s map. The creeks on both sides of this mountain and a mountain to the west, dzil daagodigha were also places of gathering agave, food, medicine, material and for chidn biyi.

Agave, century plant, mescal was known as na-ta and was the most important food of the clans. It would be harvested mostly in the summer when it was most nutritious. Sometimes whole clans would travel to where the agave was abundant. Often these places were traditional and had been used by the same clans for many decades. These places were very important to the clan, not only was food harvested there, babies were born there, people died there, dances and ceremonies were held there, there was much chidn biyi, spiritual power at these places.

If an Apache tells you, there are no sacred places in those mountains, what he is saying is there are no sacred places in those mountains known to me, or to my clan. For no single Apache can speak for every band and every clan and individual within those clans. That knowledge was not written down or passed along to every other clan, so no one could make the statement that they know there are no sacred places in those mountains. They can only speak for themselves.

A sacred place could be a place that is sacred to a band, or many bands and clans, or it could be individual, sacred only to a single clan or even to a single individual within a clan. You would have to first have a good understanding of what Apache consider sacred and why, and also the concept of power and spirits. That would take someone a very long time to learn and understand. I know of only a few white men who have taken the time and made the sacrifice to understand these concepts and their meanings. For someone to say that everyplace is powerful and equally sacred to the Apache is a lack of understanding of an Apache and their concept of power and sacredness.

This is what I believe. It is written, everything in the world, the animals, the plants, the sky, the stars, the rain, has a power behind it that makes it do what it does. What you can see is only a small part of the whole thing. The power is in the part you cannot see, the spirit part. Some Apache, a very few, learn to reach the spirit part, to speak to the spirit within and communicate with both the physical part and it’s spirit heart. When they learn this they are said to have the chidn bi-yi, the power of that spirit, the power of a plant or an animal, the lightning or the rain. Power is a most rare thing to the Apache. Those who have gained such power must use it wisely or the spirit will take it away.

It is written, power is sacred, and knowledge of the spirit within is a very sacred thing. The place where the power was given is sacred and the place where the spirit prayer and ceremony are held by those who possess the power is also sacred. You cannot talk about power like other things. You cannot hold power by speaking words or with wealth or by words written on a piece of paper. The Ndee hold an intense relationship with the powers of the world. No one, white man or Apache can see the world the way I see it. No one can understand the power and the spirit the way I can. No one can know it’s sacredness as I know it, unless he has experienced the world in the exact same way I have.

The passing of every old Apache man or woman means the passing of some tradition, some memory, some secret place, the individual knowledge of a sacred site or sacred ritual possessed by no other. No living man, white man or Apache can claim to have knowledge of the sacredness of all Apache bands, clans and individuals.



 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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Azhiker,

Sounds good.

I would repeat my warnings about people who claim to be Apache. There are people out there who make many claims. Just because someone has more knowledge about the Apache than you, does not mean they are legitimate.

Take care and have a great new year,

Joe
 

cactusjumper

Gold Member
Dec 10, 2005
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Azhiker,

Spirit wrote:

"No one, white man or Apache can see the world the way I see it. No one can understand the power and the spirit the way I can. No one can know it’s sacredness as I know it, unless he has experienced the world in the exact same way I have.
"

Got to give him credit, he is quite proud of himself. Wonder why he doesn't post over here. Could it be because the moderators won't ban people who ask simple questions? I know one other poster who can't take anyone's questioning the "facts" he posts. If management won't back up his complaints, he will
delete all of his posts and run away.

Wonder if you noticed how Spirit and Steven Trost both stopped posting as soon as I was banned for asking simple questions. Could it be that was their only reason for posting in the first place.:dontknow:

I would like to see one (1) post I made that warranted being banned from the site.

Apache my burro.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Terry Soloman

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Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
93
47
cactusjumper,

I don't know why you are posting to me and asking me these questions. I am not involved with whatever it is you are talking about and don't want to get involved in petty, childish, internet squabbles. This forum thread is about Apache of the Superstitions, and I posted what I did because I felt it was something that related to the topic and might be interesting to the person who started the topic. I just want to share my opinions about the thread, thats supposed to be what these forums are about, not diverting the topic to air personal complaints about other people.

It's one thing to disagree with what someone writes, specificaly, but quite another thing to attack the person and call them a liar. If you have something specific about what spirit wrote you disagree with I'm sure we would all like to hear it. However I don't really care to hear about your petty fights with, and opinions of other people and wheather or not you think they are credible. I can make up my own mind if I think spirit is an Apache and if he is credible without your help, thank you very much.

Also, I am not involved as a moderator at this or any site or forum. I read a lot on sites but post very rarely. You are the only person I have ever heard of who has been banned form a forum, by your own admission, and I'm pretty sure no forum bans people just for asking simple questions. I don't want to get into an internet fight with you, I just want to post about the topic SUBJECT.

I apologize to the topic author for going off topic.

Azhiker
 

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Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
93
47
ahstacy,

Sorry for going off topic on my last posting.

Here is something taken from another forum about the Apache in the Superstition mountains that may be of interest to you.
It was a response by spirit in answer to a question posed to him by somehiker about if spirit had ever heard of Geronimo's cave in the Superstition mountains.

Here is spirits reply :

somehiker,

I do not know of the Geronimo cave of the Superstition mountains. If there were such a cave and if it were filled with gold or silver or plunder from past raids, it’s location would not be general knowledge to every Apache. It’s location would be held by individuals or possibly the clan of those involved. This would be a very delicate issue and I know of few Apache who would speak of it if they knew such a thing existed. I can say to you, all mountains the Apache were in were used to store weapons, supplies and materials for lean times or for when they would lose their stores of food and necessities in their clans homeland. Again, these locations would also be specific to the clan or individual and not be the knowledge of every other clan. Some years back a cave of weapons was raided on San Carlos by white men. Many bows, arrows, lances and artifacts were stolen and sold. This cave was know to but a few clans of the Apache but was watched over and held in reverence by those who knew of it’s existence.

ka-dish day

spirit
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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cactusjumper,

I don't know why you are posting to me and asking me these questions. I am not involved with whatever it is you are talking about and don't want to get involved in petty, childish, internet squabbles. This forum thread is about Apache of the Superstitions, and I posted what I did because I felt it was something that related to the topic and might be interesting to the person who started the topic. I just want to share my opinions about the thread, thats supposed to be what these forums are about, not diverting the topic to air personal complaints about other people.

It's one thing to disagree with what someone writes, specificaly, but quite another thing to attack the person and call them a liar. If you have something specific about what spirit wrote you disagree with I'm sure we would all like to hear it. However I don't really care to hear about your petty fights with, and opinions of other people and wheather or not you think they are credible. I can make up my own mind if I think spirit is an Apache and if he is credible without your help, thank you very much.

Also, I am not involved as a moderator at this or any site or forum. I read a lot on sites but post very rarely. You are the only person I have ever heard of who has been banned form a forum, by your own admission, and I'm pretty sure no forum bans people just for asking simple questions. I don't want to get into an internet fight with you, I just want to post about the topic SUBJECT.

I apologize to the topic author for going off topic.

Azhiker

Azhiker,

All of my posts that relate to "Spirit" are still on the DUSA site.

If you can find one where I called anyone a liar, please copy and post it here.

I addressed you, because you were doing all the posting of his posts here. I agree that his posts are relevant in this topic. Apache in the Superstitions is the topic here, since you posted his comments, I followed with my personal opinion of people claiming to be Apache. Unless you are one of those people, I see no need for you to be offended.

Once again, if you think I was reasonably banned from DUSA I would urge you to find one (1) such post and bring it over here. If you're not sure what you are talking about, my post are all still in the topic over there.

To be precise, I was banned from DUSA twice. Jim B. has asked me to do an article on Native American's in the Superstitions. I don't really plan on ever posting over there again.

If you look at your last post, it was you attacking me.

Let's go back to Apache in the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
93
47
Apache my burro.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Here is one post you asked me for where you call spirit a liar. Spirit said in his posting he was Pinal Apache from a certain clan. Your comment, "Apache my burro" clearly calls him a liar in any reasonable persons definition.

I don't care how many times you were banned from forums or why. I am not interested in looking for or giving you reasons why you were banned, I couldn't care less. You posted this nonsense to me and asked me questions I have nothing to do with and I don't want to be involved with you or any of your petty problems with other people. Making this topic about you and why you were banned at some other site and warning people over and over about things going through your head only makes you look small and petty.

I did not attack you, you attacked me and tried to draw me into some petty fight and answer your questions about some nonsense I know nothing about and couldn't care less about.

once again ahstacy , sorry about going off topic but it isn't my fault.

Azhiker
 

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cactusjumper

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Azhiker,

There are few "reasonable" folks in this conversation. On the other hand, I just call them like I see them. You see it another way.

As I said, let's go back to the topic.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Terry Soloman

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Last edited:

Azhiker

Jr. Member
Jan 8, 2010
93
47
Spirit wrote:

"No one, white man or Apache can see the world the way I see it. No one can understand the power and the spirit the way I can. No one can know it’s sacredness as I know it, unless he has experienced the world in the exact same way I have.
"

"Got to give him credit, he is quite proud of himself." (cactusjumper )

Actually, if you read what spirit wrote and think about it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with him being proud of himself, or being arrogant, or with a big ego. Exactly the opposite is true. What he is saying is true for him, and is equally true for every human being on the planet, all 7 billion of us. Each and every one of us has experienced the world in a different way with our own unique experiences and seeing and believing and holding things sacred and important things in our own personal way. What he is saying is we are not a product of what we read or have been told, we are all individual and hold our own beliefs and sacredness through our own experiences which no one else can speak for. What he wrote is as true for you as it is for him.

If you read even a little bit about the Apache you will quickly understand that being an individual was of great importance to them. I as a white person was always taught and led to believe the Apache were all one tribe that thought alike, followed the same leader, and every Apache knew what every other Apache knew. spirit explains in a very eloquent way how this is a misconception and tries to tell us the way things really were with the Apache. Sadly even that is not enough to make some of us understand. The misconceptions are too deep in some of us to accept anything different from what we have been told by people who had no clue themselves.

Recently I read from a book by Grenville Goodwin about the organization of the Western Apache. In it Goodwin describes the 60 original clans that made up what spirit called the Pinal Apache band. The word coyotero, according to Goodwin is a word made up by white men to classify certain Apache and is often seen with the Pinal Apache but is not recognized by the band. In Goodwin's book he talks a little about the clan that spirit desends from. He also talks about certain bands that roamed in and out of the Superstition mountains. It is a confusing book to follow what he is saying but goes into some great depth to try and sort out the way things were before all the bands were forced onto the reservations. The book is out of print and if you can find a copy they run around $100 but some libraries may have a copy. I borrowed one from a friend who has an original 1941 publication.

Azhiker
 

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cactusjumper

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Spirit wrote:

"No one, white man or Apache can see the world the way I see it. No one can understand the power and the spirit the way I can. No one can know it’s sacredness as I know it, unless he has experienced the world in the exact same way I have.
"

"Got to give him credit, he is quite proud of himself." (cactusjumper )

Actually, if you read what spirit wrote and think about it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with him being proud of himself, or being arrogant, or with a big ego. Exactly the opposite is true. What he is saying is true for him, and is equally true for every human being on the planet, all 7 billion of us. Each and every one of us has experienced the world in a different way with our own unique experiences and seeing and believing and holding things sacred and important things in our own personal way. What he is saying is we are not a product of what we read or have been told, we are all individual and hold our own beliefs and sacredness through our own experiences which no one else can speak for. What he wrote is as true for you as it is for him.

If you read even a little bit about the Apache you will quickly understand that being an individual was of great importance to them. I as a white person was always taught and led to believe the Apache were all one tribe that thought alike, followed the same leader, and every Apache knew what every other Apache knew. spirit explains in a very eloquent way how this is a misconception and tries to tell us the way things really were with the Apache. Sadly even that is not enough to make some of us understand. The misconceptions are too deep in some of us to accept anything different from what we have been told by people who had no clue themselves.

Recently I read from a book by Grenville Goodwin about the organization of the Western Apache. In it Goodwin describes the 60 original clans that made up what spirit called the Pinal Apache band. The word coyotero, according to Goodwin is a word made up by white men to classify certain Apache and is often seen with the Pinal Apache but is not recognized by the band. In Goodwin's book he talks a little about the clan that spirit desends from. He also talks about certain bands that roamed in and out of the Superstition mountains. It is a confusing book to follow what he is saying but goes into some great depth to try and sort out the way things were before all the bands were forced onto the reservations. The book is out of print and if you can find a copy they run around $100 but some libraries may have a copy. I borrowed one from a friend who has an original 1941 publication.

Azhiker

Azhiker,

Thank you for the recommendation. I have been reading Goodwin for many years now. I do have my own copy of the book you mentioned and a number of others books by him.

"Spirit" has posted a number of things which are on the money. That is not what bothered me about his posts. It was a number of other things which rang a warning bell for me. I have many books concerning the Apache people, both by white's as well as by Apache.

"If you read even a little bit about the Apache you will quickly understand that being an individual was of great importance to them."

I have not questioned your knowledge or understanding of the Apache. If you have a specific thing I have written to question, please do so. I have been reading a lot less these days, so I may have to open a number of books to give you sources for my comments. It may be that I have forgotten the exact
text of some of the things I have posted, but you will need to name specific places where I have gone wrong.

After the Apache were placed in reservations, a few did hide out in the mountains. None of that was anything that would establish a "culture" that was exclusive to the Superstition Mountains.

Joe Ribaudo

One other thing.

"If you read even a little bit about the Apache".

You probably don't want to go there.
:laughing9:

Joe
 

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Hal Croves

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Sep 25, 2010
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cactusjumper,
Your understanding of Arizona's native peoples should be obvious to anyone reading this thread. Would you please take a moment and comment on the historical & cultural Apache/Navajo connection... if indeed there is one. It is unclear and your insight would be appreciated.
Thanks!
 

Terry Soloman

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cactusjumper

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Hal,

Thank you for the kind words, but I am just a fan of Apache history, not even a student. There are many out there who know the subject better than I do.

There are many, many sources that address the connection between the Apache and the Navajo people. At some point in the distant past, the two tribes were one, as I understand it.

I will add more information when I get home today.

Well.......I missed a day there.

To be truthful, I can't hardly pick up a book about the Apache, without reading about how they were all from one Athabascan speaking people. While that may be true, and even if they were all once considered Apache, that is no longer accepted theory.

The story went that there were seven tribes of Apache. The seventh being the Navajo who split off around 500 years ago. At one time that was being taught by Professor Gordon C. Baldwin at the University of Arizona. You might google him to see his impressive career.

Newer research concludes there were only six tribes and the Navajo Indians are now recognized as a distinct tribal unit. That being said, there are many similarity's between the Apache and the Navajo, including the myths of both peoples.

Terry's recommendation of Eve Ball's "Indeh" is a fine, informative read. I think most of the writers of Apache history do their best to get it right.

Take care,

Joe
 

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the last period of migration across beringia were the Athabaskan or athapaskan language group...this language spread from the bearing straights to the great lakes.
the misnamed Apache or Navajo people are members of this language group. there is little evidence to suggest that these people were related in other than language.
the Dine{navajo} do assimlate other culture groups beliefs, traditions, an tools to fit their needs...like the borg on star trec.
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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the last period of migration across beringia were the Athabaskan or athapaskan language group...this language spread from the bearing straights to the great lakes.
the misnamed Apache or Navajo people are members of this language group. there is little evidence to suggest that these people were related in other than language.
the Dine{navajo} do assimlate other culture groups beliefs, traditions, an tools to fit their needs...like the borg on star trec.

secretcanyon,

Are you certain they reached the Great Lakes:dontknow:

Joe Ribaudo
 

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