Apache of the Superstitions

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Don,

Can you show one (1) other connection between the Athapascan speaking people and the Great Lakes? The connection you provided (Google) seems a bit nebulous.......for me. I think the people we are discussing were a bit north of the Great Lakes and mostly to the west.

"the last period of migration across beringia were the Athabaskan or athapaskan language group."

Actually, I believe, there were three groupings of peoples across the Bering Land Bridge.
paleo-Indians were first, followed by the Athabascan speakers, (including the Navajo and Apache) with the last being the Eskimo and Aleuts.

Loosely quoted from "The Last Giant Of Beringia" by Dan O'Neill.

Good to see you posting,

Joe
 

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Jan 2, 2013
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ok, i was not sitting on the lake shore when the athapaskans arrived..if they did.
but...Deni Seymour - Academia.edu
one of the little know activities of native populations was to circumvent the northern polar regions...not just cross from into north america, but to transverse the globe...transhumant behavior...the laplanders, inuit, ect...traveled around the earth...
A Brief History of the Circumpolar North - Aboriginal Peoples
while athapaskan people did not occupy the lakes region, now...i believe they found the lakes an turned south...a balloon of athapaskan language groups extend today between the great plains an alaska, with sub-groups into califorina, baja, the southwest, with no occupation between the vast occupation region along the us/canadian border.

i believe that what every athapaskan groups were in the western edges of the lakes were dislocated by the emerging plains indians, driven from the forests by united states population growth and occupation.

many people do not even accept that the united states activities created the warrior tribes of the plains...
 

cactusjumper

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Don,

"many people do not even accept that the united states activities created the warrior tribes of the plains..."

I guess I would belong to one of the "many people". I believe many Native Americans were being pushed and driven from their homelands by stronger and more warlike Native American tribes. When we arrived here, there were already warriors.

Do you believe the same thing holds true for the natives in Mexico when the Spanish first arrived?

Take care,

Joe
 

Hangtown

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I have not been able to find much on the Apache ways or culture in the Superstitions, but the norm. Are there any secrets of theirs or people of theirs to contact or is everything always SHHHH!

I personally know many apache natives and they laugh at this story. Makes me think they started it to kill more white men.
 

cactusjumper

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Hangtown,

The story of the Apache connection to the history of the Superstition Mountains grows larger every year. Helen Corbin's book took the Apache legends to new heights. Her "trusted source" for the Apache information turned out to be not so trustworthy. Bob Corbin has removed as many copies from the book stores as he is able to.

A good many people were taken in by that source and many still believe in him despite the huge pile of evidence against his truthfulness. I considered him a friend right up to the time I found out he was never in Vietnam or even in the service. He said many things to me that were untrue, with his military story being the thing that cut deepest.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Azhiker

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Jan 8, 2010
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Hal asked about the connection between the Apache and the Navajo. Over on DUSA forum, spirit wrote in a reply to silent hunter the following. It shows a direct connection of clans between the Apache and Navajo but also that the specifics and history are not understood any longer by the Apache. spirits source was a lady named Anna Price who is Apache and lived in the early 1800's to early 1900's. It clearly shows a link even though that link is not understood today by either tribe.


I am descent from the Tiis Ebah band of Pinal Apache, the t-uhana-ne (across the water people). Sometime my clan is also called the, todil-xile Nne (Black water people) from along the Black River and Point of Pines at San Carlos.

According to Anna Price, the t-uhana-ne of the Pinal Apache are related to the
t-udntc-i-dn clan of the Navajo and Zuni. The clan name is the same for both Navajo and Zuni. How this is has been lost and I don't know anyone of that clan today.

spirit
 

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thanks AZhiker.
while this text is about comanche, it puts a lot of the confusion about the apache occupation in the southwest in a new perspective...
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL964162M/Comanche_political_history

i heard a story on how many of the tribal people recieved the names they hold today, some sargent at the registration tabel on the newly formed reservations just up an gave poeple what ever name they held on the "tribal roll".
an what did vine deloria say about the subject...every native family consisted of a grand mother, grand father mother, father, children, an anthropologist.{who never got it right.}
 

Azhiker

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secretcanyon,

from the little I've read the Apache and Navajo both speak the basic Athabascan language but only about 5% of their words are the same. Many others are close but it seems the two lost the same vocabulary very long ago in time. I am told the Apache once ranged into western Texas which would be comanche territory. The history of one tribe being displaced and moved westward is long documented. Even the San Carlos Apache themselves admit they don't know exactly where there ancestors originated, only that they came from the north.

Azhiker
 

cactusjumper

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secretcanyon,

from the little I've read the Apache and Navajo both speak the basic Athabascan language but only about 5% of their words are the same. Many others are close but it seems the two lost the same vocabulary very long ago in time. I am told the Apache once ranged into western Texas which would be comanche territory. The history of one tribe being displaced and moved westward is long documented. Even the San Carlos Apache themselves admit they don't know exactly where there ancestors originated, only that they came from the north.

Azhiker

AZ,

There are a number of Apache clans that have solid places of origin. The Chiricahua even have a "crossing story". It's an interesting story, you should look it up.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Azhiker

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CJ,

Yes some clans seem to have a good idea where they came from. Not all clans however fall in that catagory. And yes, a good story, and there are other good stories of creation and origin. Almost too numerous for posting. I have only begun to read and learn about the Apache, Navajo and Zuni of Arizona and New Mexico.

Azhiker
 

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Ladies & gentlmen: Here is a descriptionof the Apache in the 1800's Border states of Mexico

Don Jose de La Mancha

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Apaches are divided into the Coyotes or Pinelores,
the Tontos, Chiricahuis, Mimbrenos, Gilenos, Mescaleros,
Sacramantenos, Mogollones, Carrizallenos, Gi panes, Fara-
ones, and Navajoes. They have had no fixed habitation,
and reside in the mountains and on the plains, and often
make incursions into Sonora, near Altar and Magdalena, and
also in the north-east, in the mountains of Chihuahua, near
rfanos, and in Coahuilla. They are the most savage of all the
Indians of Mexico, and are exceedingly fleet, both in trav-
ersing the vast plains and in climbing the rugged eminences
of the mountains; and, besides, are excellent horsemen.
Their arms are mostly the bow and arrow ; but some few
have fire-arms, and a lance with a flint point. They use a
leather quiver, and a shield of leopard's skin, ornamejted
with feathers and with small mirrors in the center. They
are cowardly, and only attack unawares ; crafty and treach-
erous, and scalp their victims. They make use of smoke
for telegraphic signals. They are fond of hunting deer and
wild boars, "ciballos," or Mexican bulls, black bears, wild



49

goats, and Rocky Mountain sheep. Their dress consists of a
strip of linen passing betwee;; .their thighs, and fastened at
the waist, and leggings of deerskin with fringes, ornamented
with beads, and garnislied with leatlier strings, and wear
pendants and ear-rings, and in their hair they fasten a long
false braid, adorned with trinkets, shells, or silver buckles.
The women, who are as active as the men in their habits,
use very short garments of deer-skin or kid, which they call
"tlacalee," with fringes of leather strings, on the edges of
which are hung casebels, tassels, and red beads. They wear,
also, a kind of jacket called " bietle," made of the entire
deer-skin, open in front, ornamented in the same manner.
They wear moccasins of deer-skin, the same as the men,
which are called "teguas," and are fastened to the leggings.
They are all of swarthy complexion, well proportioned, wear
long hair, and no beard. Both the men and women have
very small feet. The women decorate themselves with ear-
rings of shells, or small green and white stones, resembling
crystal ; ^nd in some instances the men are decorated in
like manner. Their huts are simply poles covered with
grass or skins, and a small door, admitting a grown person.
If the i)lace is wooded, they encamp at the foot of a tree,
and cover the branches with grass to protect them from the
rain ; but generally they live without any protection what-
ever. Their atrocities are well known, and they have long
been a terror to the Sonoriaus ; but the dispersion of Vic-
torio's band subdued them, with the exception of small rov-
ing bands, that do not hesitate to attack even the stages,
as they did but a short time since, near Mesilla, in New
Mexico. Comparative peace may be said to exist, though
settlers may do well to keep on the lookout, and travel well
armed.
 

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dan Trapp, in , Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts., states al sieber an some apache scouts chased bands of apache through the superstitions, from dripping springs mountains, to the four peaks region...page 316.
 

cactusjumper

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dan Trapp, in , Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts., states al sieber an some apache scouts chased bands of apache through the superstitions, from dripping springs mountains, to the four peaks region...page 316.

Don,

Yes, that's a pretty good book to use as a source. But the key here is that they were not going to a specific place in the Supe's, but just passing through the range, on their way to what was probably their home, in the Mazatzal's. Even if they did not live there, they would likely find friends among the Tonto.

Take care,

Joe
 

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sorry for the late reply.
the only "apache" camp i know of in the area are the remains of a small settlement at queen creek-highway 60.
the camp overlooks queen creek, between picketpost an superior.
 

cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Azhiker,

Sounds good.

I would repeat my warnings about people who claim to be Apache. There are people out there who make many claims. Just because someone has more knowledge about the Apache than you, does not mean they are legitimate.

Take care and have a great new year,

Joe

I would just repeat this warning, in case some of the members have become "Star Struck" with any new Apache experts.

It would be interesting to hear about the Queen Creek camp.

Joe Ribaudo
 

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cactusjumper

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Dec 10, 2005
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Don,

My last post was not meant for you. As far as I know, you are the only person (posting) that has formal training. The rest of us, I believe, are just fan's of Native American history. I am no expert, and have never claimed to be one.

As I said earlier, I'm glad to see you posting again.

Take care,

Joe
 

bevo

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the books written by Tom Brown jr might be of some help
 

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