The Book Club

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

I have it as Emil W. Thomas (b. June 1856) arriving in the United States (1871/2), married Julia/e ______ Dec 28, 1883. Arrival in Phoenix 1885, Declaration Intention 1886, operating bakery until 1890, divorced 1891, married ~ Leona, Lena, Leontina (b. 1877 Austria) 1894, Washington, Lewis, census 1900,.... San Diego business directory 1912 - 1916. 1918 - 1922.

Emil moved to San Diego with his wife Leona sometime around 1912. He and his partner Carl A. Hallstrom (married to Sophie H.) owned Thomas & Hallstrom which appears to have been a bakery or even a chain of bakeries. Their partnership continued until 1916, and in 1917 Emil, Leona, and Thomas & Hallstrom are missing from the San Diego directory. In 1918 Emil and Leona returned to San Diego and opened their own bakery (Ideal Bakery) at 1166 5th Ave. Leona worked as a dressmaker. Ideal Bakery continued at least until 1923. Its not clear. Working for Emil were George Stock (baker), Ivor Stock (helper), and Clara Sargent (clerk).

Paints a bigger picture.

Hal,

Nice work. The question now, is what do you do with the information?

Joe

 

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[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,

Thanks Joe, that means quite a bit.

Use it to pull together a much larger story.

 

[Garry]

Hal,

Thanks for the heads up on the San Diego Directory for Thomas!

I applaud you for your tackling the history and your willingness to share your research.

I think I was able to pickup most of what you have. I have Emil in the directory every year from 1912 to 1930 with the exception of 1921 but I did find the Ideal Bakery in the Business classifieds for 1921. Of course he was in Coronado from 1922 on.

I have a Thomas, Steinegger, Schaffer Family Tree on ancestry (I just changed it to public this morning) and I hadn't done much with if for a few years. You got me jump started again adding the directory references.

There are several things that I would like to find but the Holy Grail would be to locate Julia Thomas before her marriage to Emil in 1883 in Texas. Lots of talk but I haven’t seen any meat. BTW, I’m 99% sure that Emil was a prison escapee when he married Julia.

The other thing, looking at Emil and Leona, they seem to drop out of sight after 1930. It would be nice of find out what happened to them after 1930. Dates of death, obits, etc.

Don’t mind Joe. He was always wondering what I intended to do with all the history stuff. He said it may all be interesting but wouldn’t get anyone a bit closer to the LDM.

Keep plugging!

Garry

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Thanks for the heads up on the San Diego Directory for Thomas!

I applaud you for your tackling the history and your willingness to share your research.

I think I was able to pickup most of what you have. I have Emil in the directory every year from 1912 to 1930 with the exception of 1921 but I did find the Ideal Bakery in the Business classifieds for 1921. Of course he was in Coronado from 1922 on.

I have a Thomas, Steinegger, Schaffer Family Tree on ancestry (I just changed it to public this morning) and I hadn't done much with if for a few years. You got me jump started again adding the directory references.

There are several things that I would like to find but the Holy Grail would be to locate Julia Thomas before her marriage to Emil in 1883 in Texas. Lots of talk but I haven’t seen any meat. BTW, I’m 99% sure that Emil was a prison escapee when he married Julia.

The other thing, looking at Emil and Leona, they seem to drop out of sight after 1930. It would be nice of find out what happened to them after 1930. Dates of death, obits, etc.

Don’t mind Joe. He was always wondering what I intended to do with all the history stuff. He said it may all be interesting but wouldn’t get anyone a bit closer to the LDM.

Keep plugging!

Garry

Hi Garry,

Hope you and Carol are doing well. We are still upright.

"Don’t mind Joe.

He was always wondering what I intended to do with all the history stuff. He said it may all be interesting but wouldn’t get anyone a bit closer to the LDM."


When I say that I don't mean it in a derogatory way. I have dug up quite a bit of historical facts that won't get anyone closer to the LDM myself. Some folks are just not that interested in true history, they simply want the clues that will help find the mine. I think Hal understood what I wrote, just fine.

My purpose has always been to help folks in their searches. The truth is strong medicine and I never sugar-coat it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Gary,

Forgive me for not responding sooner.

What I share here may never lead to gold, but it might get you (us) one step closer to cactusjumper's idea of big medicine. Actually, I am not familiar with that definition of big medicine, but truth does seem to be the common goal. If you are interested, I have a short story to share about Jacob Walzer.

Also, I would appreciate a link to the Schaffer Family Tree now that you have made it public. I have a few notes that I would like to compare and will pass along anything that I think may help.

Thanks!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"......cactusjumper's idea of big medicine. Actually, I am not familiar with that definition of big medicine,..."

Believe what I wrote was, "The truth is strong medicine and I never sugar-coat it."

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
Ouch. Yes! I should only read these posts in the morning. Sorry about that... and I read it twice.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

It's no problem at all. I only posted that to tweak your nose. You see, I'm full of that kind of nonsense.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper
So tweaked.

"My purpose has always been to help folks in their searches. The truth is strong medicine and I never sugar-coat it."

How about explaining the Walzer - Waltz name change? And I am not asking you to explain Walzer's use of the name Waltz.
Was there a conscious decision at some point to promote "Waltz" despite the fact that everyone (in the loop) knew the name was Walzer?

Thanks!
Tweaked

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper
So tweaked.

"My purpose has always been to help folks in their searches. The truth is strong medicine and I never sugar-coat it."

How about explaining the Walzer - Waltz name change? And I am not asking you to explain Walzer's use of the name Waltz.
Was there a conscious decision at some point to promote "Waltz" despite the fact that everyone (in the loop) knew the name was Walzer?

Thanks!
Tweaked

Hal,

It may be that Waltz changed his surname, but I doubt it. There is just too much evidence confirming the name he used.....Waltz. Once again, a number of people have done a great deal of research into his name. I am convinced his name was Waltz. If you come up with evidence to the contrary, it would make for an interesting topic. I have to doubt that "everyone" knew his name to be Waltzer.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Well bullwinkle I'm a Masonic Pastmaster and your comments on the Masonic order and satan are out of line.

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,
I nearly fell off my chair when I read your last post. The correct name was known by those closest to the Dutchman. H. Petrasch and Mulford Winsor confirmed this fact in 53' (Barnard). The name (I believe) was Walzer, not Waltzer, Waltz, Walz, or Wolz and there is good evidence to support this belief. If we are being honest here, I have to say that the manipulation of the Dutchman's name is as much a mystery as the man. I simply can not get my head around it.

However you may be right about not everyone knowing the name. B. Storms lawyer didn't even get it right. It just doesn't make sense.

View attachment 734069

 

[Springfield]

Well bullwinkle I'm a Masonic Pastmaster and your comments on the Masonic order and satan are out of line.

Gosh, if you're a mason, you ought to know that Lucifer and Satan are two very different entities.

 

[Springfield]

cactusjumper,
I nearly fell off my chair when I read your last post. The correct name was known by those closest to the Dutchman. H. Petrasch and Mulford Winsor confirmed this fact in 53' (Barnard). The name (I believe) was Walzer, not Waltzer, Waltz, Walz, or Wolz and there is good evidence to support this belief. If we are being honest here, I have to say that the manipulation of the Dutchman's name is as much a mystery as the man. I simply can not get my head around it.

However you may be right about not everyone knowing the name. B. Storms lawyer didn't even get it right. It just doesn't make sense.

It's revealing that 120 years after the guy's death, people still aren't sure what his name supposedly was. If they can't be certain who he was, why would they believe he had a gold mine? Because he said so? Or someone else said so?

PT Barnum was very perceptive.

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,
I nearly fell off my chair when I read your last post. The correct name was known by those closest to the Dutchman. H. Petrasch and Mulford Winsor confirmed this fact in 53' (Barnard). The name (I believe) was Walzer, not Waltzer, Waltz, Walz, or Wolz and there is good evidence to support this belief. If we are being honest here, I have to say that the manipulation of the Dutchman's name is as much a mystery as the man. I simply can not get my head around it.

However you may be right about not everyone knowing the name. B. Storms lawyer didn't even get it right. It just doesn't make sense.

View attachment 734069

Hal,

Using Barnard as an authority is a bit iffy.

I would tend to believe other folks who did dig into the documented history of Waltz. One who is highly respected for his research, if not his conclusions, is Robert Blair. If you have not read his book, "Tales of the Superstitions", I would suggest that you pick up a copy.

I would also recommend Dr. Glover's first book, because he went to Germany and researched the Waltz family tree.

I have maintained my seat in my office, despite your interesting, somewhat late, conclusion that Jacob's last name was Walzer.

Good luck in your continuing search for the real history of the story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Personally, until someone digs up real honest to goodness documentation, I think there's just as good of a chance that Jacob Waltz changed his name at some time in his life as there is that he didn't. I've been doing a good amount of geneology work on my own family the last year or so, and just in my small family, there have been a number of people who changed their last names when they came over from Germany - it wasn't all that uncommon.

I don't believe even Dr. Glover ever proved to himself beyond a shadow of a doubt that he tracked down Jacob Waltz and his geneology in Germany did he? I'll have to read that part of the book again tonight.

None of that will get anyone closer to the mine (if there really was one), but tracking down his REAL history and proving that it's real is a true puzzle. Heck, we still can't even tie him down absolutely to a ship passenger list on either side of the ocean!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

might i add, that most people of this time period were what we would call illiterate.
Al Sieber is said to have had no end of trouble with people of the time, in arizona territory, pronouncing, or spelling his name correctly.

 

[Hal Croves]

cactusjumper,

Regarding Barney Barnard.. stepping on a dead bee can get you stung! (I wrote that with a smile). Do you simply not believe Petrasch & Winsor, or do you question the existence of the letters? T. Kollenborn wrote that Herman was having difficulty with memory towards his end, but why then would the name be confirmed by another person?

Regarding Dr. Glover's work in Germany. What could have convinced him that "Waltz" was the name to invest in? From at least 1954 (Barnards work) the Walzer name was out there. It would have cost him little more to look up both names on that trip. I can't say if he took this step, or if he even addressed the Walzer name in the book. I do not own a copy.


"Down the Waltzhole":
1. An allusion to Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland. To go "down the Waltzhole" is to enter a period of chaos or confusion.

 

[sgtfda]

Gosh, if you're a mason, you ought to know that Lucifer and Satan are two very different entities.

It all the same Lucifer, Satan or the Devil.

 

[Cubfan64]

If we are being honest here, I have to say that the manipulation of the Dutchman's name is as much a mystery as the man. I simply can not get my head around it.

Hal, it's not really all that difficult when you sit back and think about it. There are numerous reliable documents out there from that time period with "Waltz" clearly spelled out. There are at least a few supposed examples of his signature following him from the southern US to California and on to Arizona - all spelled "Waltz."

The problem is we can't pinpoint any relatives in the US to confirm or deny whether that was his last name at birth or not, and we still have problems tracking him down prior to coming to the US.

It would be easy to look at all that documentation and say, "yup, his name was Waltz - he called himself Waltz, other people called him Waltz, etc..." What none of that addresses however is whether he may have changed his last name either shortly prior to or possibly right after coming over here. Therein lies the mystery .