The Book Club

[Treasure_Hunter]

So much for sensibility in the forum, think I'll just sit back and watch things descend into conspiracy and mayhem.

Somero

Thanks for the invite back, But the bottom line is to stifle freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, as long as there,s not to many bears with just one arm, it should be ok!

And by all means print nothing that's the truth, But it does seem that the mod believes in the right to keep bear arms, At the cost, of freedom of speech.

SHAMELESS/Nazi

Well see ya in another month! Babymick1

Wrmickel what makes you think a ban would only be a month?






3%

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

MALO PERICULOSAM, LIBERTATEM QUAM QUIETAM SERVITUTEM


We will NOT go quietly into the night!

 

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Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[wrmickel1]

Wrmickel what makes you think a ban would only be a month?






3%

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

MALO PERICULOSAM, LIBERTATEM QUAM QUIETAM SERVITUTEM


We will NOT go quietly into the night!

Treasure Hunter

That's my standard time out, From my previous actions for sticking up for "F R E E D O M"

My blood still runs red with the American dream, And not with soft politicaly correct CRAP!

So ban me if you will, But I will not sit here and have Tnet trash the American Dream!

And the rockets red glare, and bombs bursting in air. F. S. Key


Wrmickel1

 

[Somero]

Eric - you don't strike me as a philosopher upon meeting you, but you have some great thoughts!! I especially like this one from above...

very well said, and one I hope I'm able to do

Paul

I'm just a simple carpenter who would rather deal in "common sense" and derive "logical speculation" from my perceptions of past experiences of what I have learned. For me, conspiracy theories without solid evidence are grasping at straws to make an idea work, makes you wonder what kind of life experiences can generate some of these theories and attempt to bring them forth as fact. Sadly Truth pays the ultimate price when it should be held in the highest regard, deception seems to be the game some folks want to play and cry foul when their ideas are challenged. Just to gain attention for whatever reason is beyond me. Perhaps they should read some of Aristotle's ideas to learn the value of truth.

Time for the me to sit and be quiet and listen..................tired of good people getting ed

 

[Hal Croves]

Sit back.
Listen.
Can you hear Dick telling his 17 year old son to make a go of it alone in the Superstitions?.
The times were different for sure, but the Superstitions were just as dangerous then as they are today. Dick must have known the risk involved even if he had believed that Brownie was prepared. Dick's encouragement was, I think, a bit cruel. Alone at 17 with eyes watching everywhere?
What does that tell you about Dick?
As a father?
As a man?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Somero, you posted --> I'm just a simple carpenter

The last one that claimed that changed the world.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[markmar]

Nobody

You believe how we live in a Matrix ? Is not what we choose when are voting ? Our destinies are in our hands .
Now about the conspiracies and hidden history , a wise and old proverb says : " Nothing remains hidden from the sun " .

 

[Springfield]

Good post, Nobody. People don't want to even consider the stuff you're saying because it's too disturbing to their egos to think that they don't know what's happening around them. Whistling past the graveyard.

Here's a spot-on social commentator loved by the people and hated by those in charge:

 

[markmar]

Nobody

Another proverb says " The patience is the greatest virtue " . Wait for an opportunity to change your life . Everything has multiple methods for solving . You have to seek for the correct method . The life is not fairly and not a fairy tale . The life is a continuous fight for survive and has the up and the down . The life is like a cardiogram , the line go up and down and when the line go straight , we are dead . When you are up , look down and when you are down , open your wings .

I believe LDM is what really is , a small mine with rich gold ore . I believe only what I found from my research and not what anybody would make me to believe . I don't believe how exist any conspiracy behind the LDM and other treasures . Conspiracies exist when played to take or to keep a treasure or a mine and not for their locations .The mountains are there and everybody is free to seek for treasures and lost mines , using their skills and capabilities .

 

[coazon de oro]

How 'bout I stir the pot while remaining OT?



Though not about the LDM, The Treasure of the Valley of Secrets by KvM addresses it. The reason he never wrote an entire book, as far as one can easily assume, was that he did not believe in it:

During the past 50 years, there have been several authors who generated a minimum of 50 fictional treasure stories that have in a way become fact ... The Lost Dutchman Mine, which is fiction & nothing but fiction, is reported to have been found every year.

So, my question about this particular book and what it says is: How do you believers in the LDM reconcile this? Certainly KvM had good research skills, knowledge that there is something more to all of this treasure stuff than what is on the surface, etc.

Yet, he claimed emphatically and in print that the LDM is nothing more than a snipe hunt. Took the time to mention it, by name, in a book dealing with a biggun' in SE Colorado? Surely for him to put that in print, he thoroughly researched it, discussed with other 'elite' THers 'in the know', received who knows how many letters from less accomplished searchers looking for either help or self promotion on their sites, signs, clues, etc., many of which must have dealt with the Superstitions and the LDM.

I personally do not have an opinion either way concerning the LDM, but for those of you that pursue it, my question is, quite simply, what do you guys think you know that KvM didn't?

It is good to stir the pot even if you don't put anything into it. KvM's real name was Dean Miller, and yes he did a lot of research on the LDM. Not being able to solve anything, he claimed it didn't exist. This tells us that all his books are useless for finding the LDM. Yes he was a good researcher, but he didn't know it all.

A simple question deserves a simple answer. What do we know that KvM didn't? We know that according to the records of the Vulture Mine, Jacob Waltz never worked there. That debunks KvM's idea that the Dutchman high graded that mine. We also know that the gold from the Vulture Mine does not match that which the Dutchman sold.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Springfield]

... A simple question deserves a simple answer. What do we know that KvM didn't? We know that according to the records of the Vulture Mine, Jacob Waltz never worked there. That debunks KvM's idea that the Dutchman high graded that mine. We also know that the gold from the Vulture Mine does not match that which the Dutchman sold.

Homar P. Olivarez

The more folks research this myth, the more uncertainty arises. For example, tedious arguments about the mine's namesake have put his very identity in question - a review of that topic is available herein sprinkled among a number of threads. Pretty hard to guarantee he did or didn't work at the Vultue, for what it's worth, if anything.

Re the ore question, I believe the Glover argument was sufficiently shredded in the Dutchman Ore thread - there's no way to assure where the matchbox ore came from, and no comprehensive database to compare it with.

This entire legend must be accepted on faith. KVM couldn't swallow it for the same reason others can't - there's not enough reliable foundation underlying the story. Die-hard Dutchies may reject KVM of course, but the treasure hunting fraternity holds him in high esteem - not the case with a number of LDM founding fathers.

 

[coazon de oro]

The more folks research this myth, the more uncertainty arises. For example, tedious arguments about the mine's namesake have put his very identity in question - a review of that topic is available herein sprinkled among a number of threads. Pretty hard to guarantee he did or didn't work at the Vultue, for what it's worth, if anything.

Re the ore question, I believe the Glover argument was sufficiently shredded in the Dutchman Ore thread - there's no way to assure where the matchbox ore came from, and no comprehensive database to compare it with.

This entire legend must be accepted on faith. KVM couldn't swallow it for the same reason others can't - there's not enough reliable foundation underlying the story. Die-hard Dutchies may reject KVM of course, but the treasure hunting fraternity holds him in high esteem - not the case with a number of LDM founding fathers.

Howdy Springfield,

A lot of posters argue just for the heck of it, most of those arguments don't really change anything. They sometimes try to break a single word down trying to change the meaning of what was stated. Lots of useless research is done on things that will not get you closer to the mine.

Your second paragraph confirms the fact that the Dutchman ore was not high graded from the Vulture Mine as KVM believed, proving him wrong.

Homar

 

[Springfield]

Howdy Springfield, A lot of posters argue just for the heck of it, most of those arguments don't really change anything. They sometimes try to break a single word down trying to change the meaning of what was stated. Lots of useless research is done on things that will not get you closer to the mine. Your second paragraph confirms the fact that the Dutchman ore was not high graded from the Vulture Mine as KVM believed, proving him wrong. Homar

Well, it doesn't actually prove KVM wrong or right - there's not enough data to decide. Until an ore match can be established, which is something seemingly out of reach for not only the Vulture but any other mine, including the phantom Waltz location, it's just whiskey talk. I suspect KVM's Vulture comment was given to offer a reasonable alternative to the popular lore, which he didn't support. Nobody's question focuses squarely on KVM's opinion, based upon his reputation.

 

[Springfield]

All my observations are based on true north, which is, and always has been easily determined since time immemorial by either solar or North Star observations. It's constant. The flip side of 337 degrees is -23 degrees, bringing the joker of the numbers deck, 23, into play.

 

[Springfield]

One man's 157º is another's 337º is another's-23º ... I am unfamiliar with the numbering of the Joker as 23, though the Joker's introduced use is contemporary with the KGC. What cards are 22 and 24? If traced back to the Tarot, the Joker (The Fool in the Tarot deck), is numbered either 0 or 22. But, some only trace the Joker back to the 1860's, or so. Anyone can google the general symbology around it and look for ways to make it fit. What does the Joker symbolize to you as it relates to 337º, or to the apparent conspiracy involved with some of this stuff?

'Joker in the deck' is just a descriptive phrase, not a reference to playing cards. The '23' reference is to the weirdness associated with the number 23. Whatever - 337 degrees has been my often-repeated measurement, and I don't believe in coincidences.

 

[Somero]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh were almost to the part when it almost comes together, then the lizard mummies ruin everything.

Whatever happened to the days of simple clues and stone carvings, now we want to rewrite history so it will fit with conspiracy theories and super double secret groups looking to control a 4' round, by 12' deep hole in the ground. Where random bits of junk scattered about are "clues" to some grand treasure vault in an underground city.

I tend to think those throwing such ideas around are the ones muddying up the waters, while a look into the real history of the Southwest reveals a much simpler more believable set of facts. I'd write some of that history here, but it would be pointless to list the facts because nobody left here is interested in anything other than wild stories.

I guess some people just want to inflate their egos with wild stories and make it up as they go, so good luck with aligning whatever it is with that muck that's getting cooked up in the pot, sure you'll find plenty of people to swallow it.

ADIOS and thanks for the laughs

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: Coffee around? Fresh made

If one wishes to find the declension of any of the earlier years simply go to 'search' and look for a copy of Bowditch of that year. I am surprised that the Blind Bowman didn't mention this.

Jose

 

[Springfield]

Nobody, I think you're trying to read more into this particular angle than is there. 337° happens to be an azimuth that connects several (maybe about ten) nodes on a map - the nodes being an extensive collection of petroglyphs, prominent landmarks, manmade monuments, certain surveyed points and other manmade objects with their general proximity to each other binding them into a group. Add 23° to 337° and you complete the circle - 360°. Nothing more, nothing less. Years ago I became aware of the oddness associated with the number 23. You can research the phenomenon if you're interested. Frankly, I don't believe it's of any importance, just something I noticed.

That said, I obviously believe the 337° azimuth is significant - too many repetitions on my map. How and why it's important is anybody's guess -there's probably a million possibilities.

Here's some speculation to think about concerning angles when you've mapped out a bunch of clues and you're into conspiracy theory. A certain angle binding the clues into a pattern may be a tip off on how to solve the riddle. "Oh, this will be an Arizona 192° layout. That means we use two cemetery headstones and a section corner to locate the center of gravity on the triangle they form. Bury the goods there." Or, "Let's use a Colorado 44° pattern this time. The Master Plan calls for a 3-4-5 right triangle. We'll use the courthouse bell tower and Spanish Carving #8 for two corners, then bury a crow bar at point 3. That'll put the final hole at 1,155 feet on a line perpendicular to the crowbar." See what I mean? The possibilities and combinations are endless.

Spanish treasure signs! Ha ha ha.

 

[Hal Croves]

Just an idea.

Threatening the world with Famine, Plague and War: To Princes, Death! To Kingdoms, many Crosses;To all Estates, inevitable Losses! To Herdsmen, Rot; to Plowmen, hapless Seasons; To Sailors, Storms, To Cities, Civil Treason's!

De cometis
John Gadbury
London 1665

London was hit by the Black Death in 1665 followed by the Great Fire the year after.

They were first described as "terrible balls of fire" that "sowed terror" in civilizations throughout the world. Today, this wide spread fear of comets and their potential as a destructive force seems all together misplaced, perhaps even ignorant. These masses of ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, and water arrive without much celebration or concern and their appearance is for the most part predictable and the path they take thru our solar system, their obit, somewhat regular.

Its a beautiful phenomenon, the vaporizing of the celestial bodies as they approach and leave our sun. But we may have grown complacent in their beauty and misjudged the fears of early man who, I now believe understood the threat.

One thousand years ago an object traveling at up to 150,000 mph slammed into the North Atlantic Ocean. The combination of superheated steam and supersonic particles, followed by a massive wall of water killed several hundred thousand people. The entire coast line of North America was devastated and "all humans living near the coast from Newfoundland to Florida would have been exterminated". "In present day Georgia, the tidal surge would have pushed 160 miles up the Altamaha River to the Fall Line. The large lakes near the fall line, seen by early explorers of South Carolina and Georgia, probably were 500 year old vestiges of a massive comet strike in 1014".

The event change the history of North America. "The scale of this 1014 disaster would have had a major cultural impact on the indigenous peoples of the Americas. There are stone inscriptions of a great flood along the coast of Mexico and Central America in the early 11th century AD. It is possible that the Aztec legend of the death of the Fourth Sun originated in the cataclysmic events of 1014 AD."

Hours later, the Western coast of Europe was devastated by a massive wall of water. This was recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. "on the night of Saint Micheal's day (September 28, 1014) came the great sea-flood, which spread wide over this land, and ran so far up as it never did before, overwhelming many towns, and an innumerable multitude of people." In the British Isles alone it is estimated that a minimum of 80,000 people died.

Other period records confirm the destruction. From the history of the English Kings, "A tidal wave, of sorts which the Greeks call euripus, grew to an astonishing size such as the memory of man cannot parallel, so as to submerge villages many miles inland and overwhelm and drown their inhabitants". The Chronicle of Quedlinbug Abbey (Saxon) states that many people died from flooding in "the low countries". 1014 A.D.

So, what is the connection to Father Kino, the Jesuit explorer, cartographer, astronomer, and historian?

Kino was educated in Austria, joined the Society of Jesus in 1665, and received Holy Orders as a priest on 12 June 1677. His dream of a mission in the Orient (China) never happened and "While waiting in Cadiz, Spain, he wrote some observations, done during late 1680 and early 1681, about his study of a comet (later known as Kirch's Comet), which he published (later in Mexico) as the Exposición astronómica de el cometa." Kirch made the initial discovery but, it was Father Kino who charted the comets course. In Mexico, Don Carlos de Siguenza y Gongora, chair of Astrology at the Royal and Pontifical University of Mexico observed Kirch's Comet with great interest.

1680 was also the year of Pope's Rebellion also known as the Pueblo Revolt. August 10-21. Pope was arrested for an earlier uprising and following his release he and others spent the next five years planning the revolt of 1680. Think about that for a moment. Five long and torturous years to plan, organize, and implement a revolt. It seems an unreasonably long time. I believe that Pope and the other leaders were waiting for something, an expected sign of "divine" intervention. Confirmation that the time was right for rebellion. I believe that they were waiting for Kirch's comet. Obviously, they would not have known it by that name but, if you think that Native American people were ignorant about the heavens, think again. Celestial observations were being made in North American for thousands of years.

Three months after the Spanish were driven south to El Paso de Norte, Kirch's comet made its appearance. A sign from the heavens and the beginning of their return to the old ways and traditions. It lasted only twelve years.

From The Encyclopedia of Geography, By Hugh Murray, Phila., 1837.

A very remarkable comet was seen in the end of 1680 and beginning of 1681. Its tail extended 70 degrees, and was very brilliant. This comet, of all those which have been observed, approaches nearest to the sun. Descending with immense velocity in a path almost perpendicular to his surface, it proceeded until its distance from his centre was only about 540,000 miles. Sir Isaac Newton computed that, in consequence of so near an approach to the sun, it must have received a heat 2000 times greater than that of iron almost going into fusion; and that if it was equal in magnitude to our earth, and cooled in the same manner as terrestrial bodies, its heat would not be expended in less than 50,000 years.

Excerpt from The Dutch and Quaker Colonies in America , by John Fiske, 1903

Late in the autumn of 1680 the good people of Manhattan were overcome with terror at a sight in the heavens such as has seldom greeted human eyes. An enormous comet, perhaps the most magnificent one on record, suddenly made its appearance. At first it was tailless and dim, like a nebulous cloud, but at the end of a week the tail began to show itself and in a second week had attained a length of 30 degrees; in the third week it extended to 70 degrees, while the whole mass was growing brighter. After five weeks it seemed to be absorbed into the intense glare of the sun, but in four days more it reappeared like a blazing sun itself in the throes of some giant convulsion and threw out a tail in the opposite direction as far as the whole distance between the sun and the earth. Sir Isaac Newton, who was then at work upon the mighty problems soon to be published to the world in his "Principia," welcomed this strange visitor as affording him a beautiful instance for testing the truth of his new theory of gravitation. But most people throughout the civilized world, the learned as well as the multitude, feared that the end of all things was at hand. Every church in Europe, from the grandest cathedral to the humblest chapel, resounded with supplications, and in the province of New York a day of fasting and humiliation was appointed, in order that the wrath of God might be assuaged. Let us take a brief survey of the little city on Manhattan Island, upon which Newton's comet looked down, while Dominie Nieuwenhuysen and Dominie Frazius were busy with prayers to avert the direful omen.

Attributed to The Reverend Robert Law(approx 1624-1689). The Memorable Things that Fell Out within this Island of Brittain from 1638 to 1684.).


​

December 10, being Fryday, 1680, after sun-sett, there appeared in the west a comet, having a large broad and great streamer coming from it, the lyke was never seen or read of, and continued till the 16th or 17th day of January, growing smaller and smaller to it’s end.



"Comets had for centuries been considered harbingers off ill omen, and this one was viewed with apprehension in both the Old World and the New".

Next, Kino, Comets, and California.......
LUCIFER, Mt. Graham, Waiting for...

Images of The Great Comet of 1680

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[Las Vegas Bob]

Not everyone saw comets as bad luck. Some thought they brought good luck. They also believed that comets carried angels through the heavens.

 

[Hal Croves]

Very true. A few Cesar's might confirm your idea.
The point, that I will eventual make, is that the phenomenon (and other related events), good or bad, past and present, plays an important role in our history. More so than one might believe.