Lost Dutchman and the Superstitions, Cursed?

[the blindbowman]

i can prove my point . go to the massacre grounds and work your southeast threw west boulder cayon as you find each smaller cayon going out of the west boulder cayon walk just out of sight of the west boulder into the smaller cayon till you can no longer see the west boulder cayon . from that spot start looking for more signs of skeletons . why do you ask ... logic says the indains would have let the small groups of fleeing spainish get out of sight of the main group before they attacked them . so you should find evidence of these small groups trying to make a run for it . logic tells us that in the hope to safe them selfs they would have tryed to get away from the main mass and they could move faster and have a better chance to exscape that way . so go look and you will find signs of this i am positive .....

not only IMHO is that true but thats why you see the main group of skeletons at one main place , because it planed to end that way ... and at that location ....lets look at another reason if you run 200 men up and down the steep mt range for about 4-5 miles it could have become dark and in the morning they were setting ducks ... if it was me and they made my familes work the mines , i would have done the same thing ...

thats why they let them think they would get away . so they would try even harder to exscape ... an all the time they knew they were not going to let them go ...

is it a bad thing to under stand what happend ... no it was just the truth .....

...

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Djui5 wrote:TT,
You feeling alright? Debunking the whole Dutchman myth by a guy saying a couple photos in pamphlets are fake?

I think he is baiting us! Heck there are folks who don't believe that Tayopa ever existed too!

Blindbowman wrote:threw the years there has been some real crazy nut cases out there lost . whats one more LOL ...

HEY now I am not IN the Supers, so there is one less nut-case there anyway! There have been some real nut-cases there in years past, so if we follow in the foot-steps of the nutzees then we are upholding a long tradition!

BB also wrote:true or not who knows what we will find ... but you can not find anything typeing on the computer and never going out there to look for your self

Not true my friend, - I have found some new friends, found land, found horses, found guns, as well as new enemies, new things to waste time on, new ideas, old ideas, etc. You can find LOTS of things on the computer, though not likely any lost mines or lost treasures! :P

BB wrote: i hope to take a few 30-30's and i hope to never use them

Hey if you draw a deer tag and time your exploration to coincide with deer hunting seasons, you might bag enough meat to last you a while! I don't think the deer population is high there but there are a few.

Whether the curse is real or myth, it is a fact that literally hundreds of people have died or disappeared in the Superstions so it is not a place to be taken lightly; even if there were no crazees who would hurt you if they thought you had a map or clue to find the lost mine, the scorpions, Africanized bees, rattlers and mountain lions are not to be ignored. The terrain alone has killed more than one, it is quite rugged and a single mis-step can be your last.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=djui5 link=,You feeling alright? Debunking the whole Dutchman myth by a guy saying a couple photos in pamphlets are fake?
******************

Nah djuice, just found it and thought that I would toss it into the pot to stir it a bit. Every bit o opinion or data can be important, such as

"you could run a gov't/army/whatever pack train over it and never find it".

This would suggest it is in the flat lands no?

Bowman's thingie is different.

Remember, many of the lost thingie are not where they normally would occur, or they would have been found long ago, so look for the anomaly that might explain it.

Sometimes the obvious is the least expected or searched, , since it too obvious..

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

i will gladly face those things to get the hell away from the snow lol ...


i took two deer with Bow , i am a gold matel marksman i think i like the bow hunting a lot more than pointing a gun . the feel of the arrow leaveing the string the sound as it cuts the air . the wind it rides ti hide its mark the feel as it hits , and some times i even open my eyes to watch lol ......

who found something . what was it ?


i wish i could find something out there ? lol


i dont have any maps , what good are clues in this legend lol ..


about as usefull as the snow out side the window lol


some where it may be of use ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=djui5 link
"*************
HI djui, a simple thought, but mesqute/oak wood lasts one heck of a long time, so do the stumps of the trees that were cut down. So, is there an area where there are an unusual no. of Mesquite /oak tree stumps still visble?

Remember, he wouldn't have hauled them very far to cross timber his shaft to hide it.

P.S, Here is Dutchies mine. Just above the hole in the rock. Turquoise LDM , Blue ?? Mine?

Yer welcome Djui

Life can be interesting

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

if you slide down and dont catch your self you got a over a 400ft drop !


thats why i am takeing ropes next time .. !

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geese you want me to dig it out for you djui? hehehehehe

yellow, skylines looking East & North., pink is the diversionary trail. So it is located on, or alongside of the South of a small peak or hill at the South end of a NW/SE striking valley. Rest is strictly diversionary data.

Go East past the arroyo, past the first N/S range of hills on your left, continue to the East until you come to a smaller n/s range which butts to the North on an E/W range. Contine to the East until you see a small peak or hill to the North in the valley., Look for the mine at the S/W side of this peak

Simple no? snicker.

you can expect my usual fee to be applied when you file on it djui, hehehe

Tropical (Reaves) Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[djui5 link=]
Of course I'll get you your fee. Time to do some hiking. Thanks buddy!
**************************
And thinking if it even fits the terrain.heheh

p.s. Fee is waived

Tropcal (Reaves) Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes ironwood stumps would be a good clue - remember that is what Waltz used, ironwood - to seal the mine entrance. I would not take that statement of how well it is hidden as a clue to the location, remember also you could "see the military trail from the mine, but not see the mine from the military trail" which would not make sense if the trail actually went OVER the mine or if it was on flat land. I would think the ironwood must have been what was not too far away from the mine, so was his choice, or it could be because ironwood is very strong and long-lasting (might still be holding, if not wet) but who knows? Maybe he packed the logs in from many miles away from the mine?

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

"Waltz used, ironwood - to seal the mine entrance."

thats not true .. he said he used timbers . in fact he got them from the tunnle , thats the trap i was talking about , he removed the shoreing from part of tunnle ....

and he had a mine but it was to hard to get to so he got gold from the treasure trove in the tunnle ....

remember the sorce of the gold could still be from the same vien and no one would know it ...

he just didnt want anyone to think he was stilling from the chruch ! a sin ....

my...{2007 expedition 3}... is not going there to hunt for the LDM .it is going there to collect evidence at 3 sites and to investigate 2 0ther areas related to those sites ... and are relate to what i saw in 1979 ...

the LDM and the Tayopa have nothing to do with what these sites are or are not at this point time IMHO ...what i found is not in question . we know i have found something . what are they .. will have to wait untill the expedition can define its evidence . is there enough to get the permits needed . that is still in question at this point ...dose what i found fit these legends , IMHO yes

could the LDM be one of the site , yes , could the tunnle be another mine , yes , other than the tayopa ,Yes .. could the tunnle be a old mine the dutchman found, yes and could it be the real LDM ..NO .. could it be a mine yes . could it be the LDM ,NO

why because IMHO i found the LDM in 1979 and it is not the tunnle site , it is as he said it was ....

the odds of two diffrent sites of this type being with in a 1/4 mile of each other that fits these defind discriptions is over welming high odds ...

beleave what you want .i am not trying to beleave , i am trying to prove ...what i saw was in fact the LDM

hunting for the LDM is like hunting for a needle in a hay stack .yet i found the needle in 1979 and i want to under stand how the hay stack fits around it ...

 

[the blindbowman]

Maybe he packed the logs in from many miles away from the mine?

Oroblanco

Well that's another issue. Say that large "field" of stumps were from Dutchie covering his mine, how far did he take the logs to cover the mine? You don't know. It's a known fact he has 2 horses at one point in his life, so it's possible he cut the timbers and used the horses or a mule to haul them half way across the range. Also the terrain was much different back then, the canyons we not as deep, and a lot of the terrain was more flat than it is now.

It's been so long, and things have gotten so twisted that even if you knew exactly where the clues lead to, you still might not be sure you're in the right place. I think you could walk right over the mine and not even know it. I'm sure many people have.

"I think you could walk right over the mine and not even know it."

not true !

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
Blindbowman wrote: (<"Waltz used, ironwood - to seal the mine entrance.">)

thats not true .. he said he used timbers

Check your sources - it was ironwood.

The field of stumps I think you are referring to Randy is due to wood cutting for the Silver King, and not a "soldiers camp" (as some call it) as there was never a military camp there either. Think about how many logs it would take to close in a hole in the ground say three feet square - not that many are required. The ore was very, very rich, we are not talking about a huge mine. If it were huge, it would not be lost today!

BB also wrote: he just didnt want anyone to think he was stilling from the chruch ! a sin ..

Heh? The Dutchman, stealing from the church? Are you contending that Waltz was stealing gold from a Jesuit church, or from a Jesuit-owned gold mine? On what do you base this contention?

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

North of "horse camp" - you probably know the site pretty well. Problem with finding stumps is - after over 100 years is it going to be possible to tell an ironwood from an oak from I don't think I could tell the difference, unless the bark is still on it. Plus like you said - he had at least two horses, the logs could have been brought quite some distance, and he might well have realized that leaving stumps close to the mine could be a dead-giveaway.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

"I think you could walk right over the mine and not even know it."

not true !

Until you show me that you've found Dutchie's mine, I'll stand by my statement

a few months ago i made a offer to 5 men only one of them faced me dirrectly to talk to me . he will share in my find for his honesty ...

now i must congratulate you dju5i, you did not over react when i did not show up for a meeting ,i had no controll over at the time , i told my self there was far to much wealth for one man , and that if i found the LDM and proved it . i would share its wealth with a few others ,there are 5 names on my list and one open blank . your name is #4..

sorry your statement is not true, you would in fact fall in it ." it is open ..."

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI If the iron wood is the same up there, it isn't used for firewood, too dense, like Manzanita. So how many logs and of what length would be needed to cover a shaft say 4 X 4 , or even 6 x 6 ft?

So you would be looking for an area that only had a limited no of trees cut, of say of 6" in diameter +-?.

Two layers @ 12 per layer = 24 logs sooo---.

Tropical Tramp (Scots betrayed one sniff)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=djui5 ]
Well since I'm on that list I hope you found/find it
****************

Djui old busom buddy, love of my life, my hero, etc., etc (you gonna be rich? ) hmm Good monrning mr DJUI.

Seriously, I would love to see you and bowman make it big.

I JUST LOOOVE RICH FRIENDS sigh.

Tropical (Reavis) Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

the funnel shaped pit clues <snip>

The funnel shaped pit idea does not originate with Waltz, it is related to others - including Deering, Chuning etc. If you check Waltz's statements and omit the stuff in Holmes, there is no funnel shaped pit mentioned.

Oroblanco

 

[Sentinel]

As the topic began concerning a Curse, it is what you make of it. Clay Worst, Brownie Holmes,Sims Ely, both Petrasch brothers and even Waltz lived rather long lives. A number of Dutch Hunters have had very successful careers: Tom Kollenborn, Ron Feldman, Bob Corbin, Tom Glover and again Sims Ely. It is very doubtful any number grouped here has even 1/2 the knowledge and experience the above gentlemen have as individuals. Tex Barkley operated one of a number of successful cattle operations in the area. All the local ranchers were Dutch Hunters and all lived long and happy lives.

Deering, Waltz, Petrasch, Thomas all agree on 2 pits with a tunnel below and to the side. Holmes worked off similar material, but much of it is not in any book you will read. It was handed down by word of mouth. Holmes mine is the same as the others.

There are hundreds of empty mines throughout the range. It is difficult to believe they were all barren prospects.

There is one place there are a number of stumps in the range. The drought is making them more obsolete.

The Apaches covered a number of mines. Glenn Magill found one. There are 8 in that area alone according to the stories. No one will make front page news as these are discovered now.

They will just become barren holes for those who find them later.

 

[Oroblanco]

Welcome to T-net Sentinel!

Sentinel wrote: As the topic began concerning a Curse, it is what you make of it.

So you don't believe that literally hundreds of people have died and/or vanished in the Superstitions?

It is very doubtful any number grouped here has even 1/2 the knowledge and experience the above gentlemen have as individuals.

Well heck Sentinel, how well do you know the members here, or what they might know? Not to go casting a whole lot of aspersions here but you included Sims Ely as one of those esteemed individuals with vast knowledge far beyond what any dozen of us T-net-ers have, yet Ely was in fact a journalist, no prospector - he believed the tale of the Mexican woman about having gone with her husband, how they had winnowed the dirt on a cloth in the wind and the grains of gold being the size of wheat - well that is an old method of dry-mining PLACER gold and NOT lode gold, which the Dutchman's mine was; he also saw no difference in the description of Apache Jack's (and the Pima ledge) which said it was black with spots of gold like stars in the sky, while the ore found under Waltz's bed was white quartz with large veins of gold in it. So no I disagree, Sims Ely sure didn't have as much knowledge as many T-net members to have made mistakes like those.

Deering, Waltz, Petrasch, Thomas all agree on 2 pits with a tunnel below and to the side.

No, they don't all agree. Check your sources, and I would suggest reading some of the "Pioneer interviews" done in the Depression by WPA workers with old-timers.

There are hundreds of empty mines throughout the range. It is difficult to believe they were all barren prospects.

Well calling them "mines" is a mistake really, they produced no gold to amount to anything only sweat and tears. Consider that over 100,000 people have searched for the lost mine over 100 years plus, and the large number of old prospect holes is no surprise. Too bad they didn't bother to fill them back in when they found crap though.

The Apaches covered a number of mines. Glenn Magill found one. There are 8 in that area alone according to the stories. No one will make front page news as these are discovered now.

They will just become barren holes for those who find them later.

Yeah like they are not barren holes already. Show us the gold?

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

frist keep the tunnle data out of the pit data . the shaft of the pit was 6x6 after the dutchman inlarged it . that means from 6 ft up 4 ft it was planked over that is timmers 10-12 inches in size time 6-8 wide by 4 levels high thats 24 -30 timbers in all some of the timmbers have fallen in the shaft and the shaft is open . . the funnle dose not play a roll in the condition of the shaft and there is a funnle ...i said the timbers were not trees fresh cut , they were seasoned timbers and over a hunderd years some of them have gave way they the help of the environment ...

the tunnle has had some of the timber removed and dose not look very safe because of that .. i beleave the timbers in the shaft are those missing from tthe tunnle ..

i told you all that the dutchman had took all the clues and split them in to 3rds and gave them to 3 people ...

i can prove that now ...

i under stand how he change the dirrections that he gave dick holmes . the other to are in code yet dick holmes is in code and mixed up to confuse dick holmes i can prove that . and translate them in the right order now ...

"if you know How"


maybe the most importain wording in the dick holmes acount ....

you could spend your whole life and never under stand what is going on and how the dutchman ,s acounts relate to the area and the pit and tunnle it self ...


the dutchmans age was a factor latter on in his life . it was a matter of time before he could no longer reach the pit it self , and i beleave he coverd it for that reason , the tunnle is another matter .

hard to get to yes but not as hard to get to as the pit was .

i did not mean the dutch stold from the chruch . yet the tunnle i beleave was a jesuit mine .latter ran by the spainish and than the apache took the mine and killed the spainish and the jesuits that remained . than closed the tunnle and coverd it up again ...

great wealth ,but also . the reason thousands have died.. the dutchman calles the pit a shaft and yet he refers to the tunnle as a shaft also . at one point he states you can go stright into the mine .. that is only true of the tunnle it self and that is the only statement he made that could be dirrectly related to the tunnle it self . is he calling the tunnle his mine

i know both the pit and the tunnle are real ...i beleave the pit comes in on top of the ore vein that the tunnle was working .... i beleave that some of the miners had been hanged for high gradeing and the dutchman was afrade of being hanged for highgradeing the jesuits tunnle . and the i do not beleave he touch the treasure the jesuit put in the tunnle ...

i do beleave he got some of his gold from the tunnle it self ....

if i am right and the tayopa list is the treasure trove list than there was in fact high grade ore in the tunnle . and it would not be related to the jesuits ...by any one seeing it ...

the dutchman knew of the jesuits maps and stones ,the dirrections did not play a roll in his dirrections only confrim the locations...

i dont know how anyone could put this legend back togather again with out knowing where the LDM was frist . there is just to many misleeding factors and confussion in this legend . yet i am lucky and wise .....

so was the dutchman ...


it takes one to know one i guess ...

soon i will prove that i have found it ! that dirrections have been wrote out and are in safe keeping if anything happens to me before i can prove it is there ...
not some confuseing clues . stright out dirrections to the mine pit and the tunnle it self and to the rock house and the hiden camp ...there are 3 sets of these dirrections in 3 diffrent places ...i have a few opictures with the directions so there will be no confussion as to what and where they take place ...

i wish i could share it with everyone , maybe i am by finding it and letting the state and goverment take the treasure trove and help protect the historic value of these sites ...

i have become one of those men that spend many many years of their lifes hunting for clues and evidence of the LDM . and never knew it till now . i was just trying to have fun and i did .....