Lost Dutchman and the Superstitions, Cursed?

[Sentinel]

Just because the glass is empty, doesn't mean it was always empty.



Sims Ely wanted to tell a story. What was found and what was known was passed down through the family. Does someone who reads Jim Barks notes and Elys book really believe they are on the same page as John Spangler was ?

The smartest come and go and leave no sign.

Some are crafty and have you look the other way.

Few books will tell you the truth. Some authors added to the mystery and confusion. The Bulldog is an excellent example. So many lies, so much deception.

You should always wonder why those with the best information were in the most unlikely places. What they were looking for and why is very important.

 

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[the blindbowman]

i can point out the rock house . i can show you the tunnle and the pit .. thats 3 out of 3 . in my book ! lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Please explain to me how and why there are Jesuits involved in this? What evidence is there of Jesuits in the Superstitions? Can you find some record in their archives of having entered the Superstitions at all? I just don't get this connection to Jesuits when there seems to be no record of any Jesuit activity in that region at all.

A tunnel versus a shaft; hmm...well what would you call a hole dug in the ground, that went in the ground at a 45 degree angle - a tunnel or a shaft?

Four peaks align as one? Sounds like the description of Dr Thorn's lost ledge - which may not be in the Superstitions at all - remember Thorn spent a considerable amount of time in the rolling ground between the Superstitions and Four Peaks, as if the narrow valley with the seam of quartz at the bottom were in that area, not in the Superstitions.

Just because the glass is empty, doesn't mean it was always empty.


Yes true - I have been to a large number of old mines, including some that were mined-out - there are tell-tale signs of actual mines that are different from old prospect pits which never produced anything but honor and a strong back. Finding an old prospect shaft is not the same as finding a mine.

I have a lot of respect for those Dutch-hunters who 'went before' but also keep in mind that some were cattle ranchers, not prospectors, some were journalists and writers, not prospectors, and that none ever found the mine - so their "knowledge" no matter how extensive, was not enough to solve the mystery. In fact it is possible that having assembled a lot of clues might prove to be a very real hindrance; consider what would happen if you were working out the mystery, and one or more of the "clues" you were in possession of were FALSE!!!

Where is there a description of Waltz's mine as being six feet by six feet? I have never seen it described this way.

Oroblanco

 

[Sentinel]

Good to see someone is paying attention.

This thread however did intiate concerning the Curse of the Superstitions. The curse is usually associated with some sort of intrusion upon sacred ground of some sort, usually determined to be a burial site. It would be good then to learn of the customs of those Native Americans in the area before determining if there is such a curse. Learning of those things will not only give you an appreciation of those cultures, but allow you to conduct yourself respectfully concerning such things. Much of the Curse is simply the greed and envy of Men. So Pure and Simple. Also very sad.

 

[Sentinel]

Let me just add that there are a number of encampment areas with Arrastras within the wilderness area. The canyons leading from those areas used to show color many years ago. Barry Storm followed some of these like a bloodhound. The sources were picked clean, but it is only the last operation you seek. It is unfortunate there is no chronological sequence to the encampments. Gene Reynolds believes there is a book he saw that could solve this puzzle. It was an oppourtunity that he missed. More surprising that no one followed his lead.

The Apaches supposedly did not cover the mine figuring it was too well hidden. Deering recognized it for what it was. Waltz only covered the mine in the public rendition of the Holmes tale. There is a need to simplify things and cut the fat from the meat.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy! Well six feet square is as good a guess as anyone's - many small mine operations were this small and even smaller! If I live long enough (and find some extra finances) to do it, I hope to take you to our claims in CA - there are tunnels so small that you can barely squeeze in! In the one tunnel some idiot was high-grading to the point that he left a huge "room" about twenty feet across, and ONE foot high! It is dug in caliche, so is supposed to be "arched" in the ceiling which provides a good support for the overburden, but this idiot had no concept of safety. I have a photo of a partner working in that room when we were trying to correct the danger, if I can find it and scan it I will send it to you.

Those arrastras are tantalizing - I was dead-sure they were right close to gold mines at one time, but it is possible they are some distance from the mines they were built to process ore from. You know the people who first discovered the rich gold ores in Goldfield said there were signs of Spanish workings there when first discovered - just making the leap of logic but it is possible those arrastras might have been processing ore from gold veins near Goldfield.

Do you recall the title of the good Reynolds found? Speaking of books - been looking for a copy of one out of print, title is something like "Mystery of the Crosses". Anyone ever seen a book with a title close to that?

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

ORO: "...well what would you call a hole dug in the ground, that went in the ground at a 45 degree angle - a tunnel or a shaft? ...."

That would be an inclined shaft.

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"Do you recall the title of the good Reynolds found?"

"PERALTA".

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

You can find the information in the LDM Forum, or by reading Borrego 13. Surely you have Gene's book.

cj

 

[Sentinel]

Gene relates while at Ruths daughters home he looked through a book briefly that was titled "Peralta". There were photographs in the book. Gene believes one was titled as "The Sombrero Mine". It dealt with the families history, including the mining operations. Stella Ruths daughter most likely has that book in her possession now. It could have been thrown. Borrego 13 gives an excellent description. Gene Reynolds only made a certain number available. He was down to the last few several months ago. It deals with Genes relationship with Glen Magill and his search at Borrego. An excellent book that fits nicely with Gentry's "Killer Mountains".

South of Massacre canyon and in the north Brush corral Basin both have Arrastras nearby. Just 2 of many. The distances between these alone would rule out a direct connection to the Goldfield area. It is very unfortunate some drag rocks have been relocated to decorate a number of front yards. The Bluebird has one and the Museum another. The Museum stone was donated by Tex Barkleys family.

Glenn Magills pit on Bluff Springs is consistent with the older pits throughout the area. Holmes account says Waltz widened the pit. There are oral stories that relate exact measurements concerning the size. I personally doubt them. There are several of these older pits in the Needle canyon area. They are very consistent with one another.

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

The sad fact is, that many maps, stories and clues, incorporated existing mines, pits and.....whatever, to "authenticate" someones story. While they are hoaxes, if you follow the stories and clues......there will be an old mine or prospect.

Your friends, Ben and Late are two of the poor souls who have fallen into this trap. All of the locations Late, I assume it was him, provided on the LDM Forum are to well known locations, even the one he deleated. He and his group believe they have found "lost" mines. There are any number of people who have left those locations behind many years ago.

I am still waiting to see the signature page of the Ely book that Late promised to send me. Can't send what you don't have. They have constructed a nice story, but there is no substance to any of it. In the unlikely event that Ben decides to send me the copies of the material they claimed to have, I will profusely apologize, personally and on both forums.

I hope my friend Randy does not fall into the same sad game. If you do......believe me, you won't be alone.

cj

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

What is it that makes you believe the story we have been told? At what point did the story change from being a total fabrication to "truth"?

Does the fact that each and every one of Late's "locations" are well known to many Dutch Hunters outside of his group mean anything to you at all? The fact that you are visiting those sites for the first time, and that they are new to you, has no bearing on the truthfulness of their stories.

Consider this: The start of this tale, was completely false, when it served no purpose for their alleged intentions. They have not been truthfull about the lack of communications from the folks at the museum. There was a great deal of interest shown by people like Clay Worst and George Johnston, just to mention two who were corresponding on a regular basis with Late and his group.

My guess is that they were being approached by many members of the Forum, including people like Greg Davis, Tom Kollenborn, Matthew Roberts......etc. There is much more to this story than you are aware of.

I have no idea what you must imagine my motive is here for voicing my serious doubts about this affair. Had they sent me the signature page from Ely's book, I would have some reservations about discounting the entire story.

When you finally visit Obie Stoker's old claims, let me know. That will put a smile on my face for sure. The one good thing about all of this, is that you are getting a fine education in Superstition Mountain History.

I think I mentioned all of this when Late posted his "clues".

Take care,

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Hey Randy, Beth scanned the photo for me - have a peek inside this mine!

No that photo is not sideways! A high-grader had been at work in our mine, and dug out ONLY the pay streak which was less than one foot thick, leaving a huge "room" we had to fix.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, That is as bad as most old Spanish workings, no more than necessary to extract the hi-grade. This is what a typical old Spanish mine would look like, No nice big Portals where one can walk in upright or use carts..

This is also why many old very rich Spanish mines are never found, they don't even look like the mines most seeker search for, most look just like a fault.

Tropic Tramp.

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

This is what I am talking about:

"Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently I was in Downieville, California and came across a hardback book by a gentlemen named Sims Ely. The book and a number of letters from the Pheonix area were being sold at a yard sale by an elderly lady who was cleaning out her garage. Seems her husband had passed away recently. Her family was from the Pheonix area and the material had belonged to her husband. Anyway I bought the books and letters, for five dollars. I have read a bit of the book and have to admit it is quite good. Haven`t looked at the letters yet but they seem to be addressed to Mr. Ely.

I have prospected for gold in california for many years. Moved here 10 years ago from georgia. My grandad use to prospect a lot in the Dahlonega area of n georgia. Anyway we have our share of lost mines up here and i have never done much but just look for gold never lost mines. I am curious is Mr. Ely a reliable source and is the lost dutchman mine still being looked for.

Also is there any museum, etc., in the Pheonix area that might be interested in this material. I would be happy to donate it once I finish reading the material.

I just stumbled across this website today.

regards,

Late49er

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"At what point did the story change from being a total fabrication to "truth"?"

That statement stands.

"The story you know from the postings, or the story?"

Sat Feb 12, 2005 My private corrospondence with Late/Ben Davis, began immediatly after his first post. At that time, I gave him the name of the person to contact in regards to placing his material. He did that, and then asked me if that person was trustworthy....later.

You may know more of the "story" than I do, but if so, they lied to me from the start.

"I don't wanna bring people into this, but Greg told me he never received an e-mail from Ben Davis...."

"My guess is that they were being approached by many members of the Forum, including people like Greg Davis"

This statement also stands as written. I did not say that Greg ever had contact with Ben Davis. There are many "collectors" out there.

Feel free to clarify my "motive".

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

I was given the opportunity to see each of the "sites". I passed on that, because I don't make it a habit to go, alone, with strangers into the Superstition Mountains. I had already been to many of those sites, and knew people who have been to them all.

While you are "familiar" with what Ben/Late have posted and told you, I don't believe you are familiar with what they have told me, and what actually took place with folks from the museum. That would be, unless you are in personal contact with those who were involved from this side of the affair. Other than me, are you?

Having Ben/Late send me copies of the material, sensitive parts removed, as they said they would, seems reasonable. If you are going to make your story public, which they did, you should be ready for some doubters.
They are the ones who broke their word, not me. I did everything they asked of me.

Looking back and knowing everything I know now, I would not do a single thing differently. It's their story, not mine. If someone is conning others, it's not me. That is their record right now.

Believe what you will.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Just so you will know it when you see it:

 

[gollum]

Can't believe I just found this!

Couple of points first Oro,

1. Your list of the dead misses a Hawaiian murdered by his brother. Don't remember the name.

2. Ed Piper was not found dead of a perforated ulcer in 1959. He died of Cancer in 1962 (or 1963).
Here is a picture of him in 1962, at his camp at the base of Weaver's Needle just a few months before he died:

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

r=djui5 link=tIt snowed on the mountain this weekend. I'm going to take pictures here in a few.

******************

"Sheesh djui I leave my sunny Mexico to visit you gringos and you dump"3" of snow on me, while is purty, it is cold in Tucson.

Tropical Tramp

 

[MesaBuddy]

Hey Randy , is that taken near your house ? I think I know where you live
Have a Good one

MesaB