The lost dutchman is a myth?

[sgriffith59]

It is a federal park area.

 

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[somehiker]

It is a federal park area.

Pretty sure everyone knows it's a wilderness area.
But that fact does not mean the feds can stop folks from searching for the LDM if they wish to.
Just that you can't take all the gold without asking first.

 

[somehiker]

If the Feds were looking for it....they would strip mine the place!

No doubt. If they knew exactly where it was, they would probably try something like what they've been doing with Oak Flat.

Oak Flat Land Exchange | Arizona Mining Reform Coalition

 

[Oroblanco]

A Wilderness Area is not a park. Parks have very restrictive regulations, and while a Wilderness Area has many restrictions, it is not the same as a park. Prospecting is specifically allowed by the Wilderness Act, regardless of all the people whom keep trying to tell everyone you can't.

As for the search for the LDM - I will quote one of the greatest Dutch hunters - "You can't legislate away men's dreams." ->Bob Corbin

The Fed is not going to start operating any gold mine, unless somehow your gold mine got into trouble for not paying taxes, in which case it is possible that the IRS could take over operations. If the LDM were a Uranium mine, now this whole situation might be different.

Good luck and good hunting - and to you whom believe the LDM is all a myth, good for you, stay home and we won't mind your not looking at all.
Oroblanco

 

[chlsbrns]

Yes it's a myth.

I think if you check the rules and regulations you will find that you are not supposed to wander off of the trails.

"Shortcutting trail switchbacks is prohibited. This practice damages the trail, soil, and vegetation"

As far as prospecting goes:

"Prospecting is the gathering of information on mineral resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designated Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right of interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (except a small grab sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations; see "Mining" below. If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see "Treasure Trove Hunting" below"

"MINING

Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filed until January 1, 1984, at which time all Wilderness Areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently- designated Wilderness Areas were closed to mineral entry upon enactment of the law creating them"

Tonto National Forest - Special Places

 

[Loke]

Yes it's a myth.
...

Then what are you doing here ??

 

[ScatMan]

Yep, pure dribble. Of course, the REAL Lost Dutchman's "gold mine," is the Industry that has grown up around the myth. Museums, tourist traps all around Apache Junction and Tortilla Flats, and the books! Oh my, the books! Some of the best fiction writers in the world. Want to find the LDM? Write a book, get the gold!

X2!

 

[ScatMan]

A Wilderness Area is not a park. Parks have very restrictive regulations, and while a Wilderness Area has many restrictions, it is not the same as a park.
Oroblanco

You are correct about State Parks having very restrictive regulations but are so wrong about Wilderness Areas not being parks.

Arizona State Parks: Lost Dutchman: Home

A Wilderness Area is a designation given to Parks. All MUST abide by ALL of the rules & regs of the park & the wilderness act.

It is those who trample on our public lands & who do not abide by the laws who cause stricter regulations. Please try to post correct information as numerous people read what is posted & believe the information is correct much like the falsehoods writen about the ldm.

 

[Somero]

There seems to be some confusion about the Superstition Wilderness Area. First, it is not in the Arizona State Park system.
http://azstateparks.com/Parks/loDU/downloads/LODU_Park_Map.pdf

Second, it is regulated by the U.S. Forest service within the Tonto National Forest.
Tonto National Forest - Home

"The Tonto National Forest, Arizona, embraces almost 3 million acres of rugged and spectacularly beautiful country, ranging from Saguaro cactus-studded desert to pine-forested mountains beneath the Mogollon Rim. This variety in vegetation and range in altitude (from 1,300 to 7,900 feet) offers outstanding recreational opportunities throughout the year, whether it's lake beaches or cool pine forest."

However it is designated as the Superstition Wilderness Area and is subject to different regulations.
Tonto National Forest - Special Places
"This Wilderness was designated in 1939, and was expanded to its present size in 1984. It now contains approximately 160,200 acres. There is a well-developed trail system, and the western end of the wilderness receives heavy use during the cooler times of the year. Trail conditions vary from fair to very poor. Several trails are unsuitable for horses."

The most important rule is "Leave No Trace"
Tonto National Forest - Special Places

For a good general definition....................National Parks, National Forests, and U.S. Wildernesses | River of No Return | Nature | PBS

So for those who would have us thinking that you cannot wander about the Wilderness Area, go back and read the information. For those that do not abide the "Leave No Trace" rule, go back and read the information so next time those of us that give a don't have to pack out your trash. Also remember if you have to in the woods, you are not a bear,

DISPOSING OF HUMAN WASTE

Serious disease problems have been traced to poor hygiene and food handling practices. Here are some tips:
When nature calls, select a suitable spot well away from any water source. Dig a "cathole" 4 to 6 inches deep.
After use, fill in the hole completely, burying the waste, and toilet paper.
Be sure soap and water are available (and used) after using the latrine, especially before cooking. Large groups should establish a latrine or use a portable toilet for packing out waste.
A small shovel or garden trowel, and a roll of toilet paper in a small bag make a fine personal toilet if used correctly.

Nothing more disgusting than finding used T.P. stuck on a cactus.

 

[Somero]

The lost Dutchman is a myth?

No, Jacob Waltz is not a myth. The source of his gold ore is in question. Hopefully someday this unsolved mystery will be proven.

 

[Cubfan64]

(except a small grab sample)

How small is small? How many "small" grab samples can you take? Looks like there is some room for interpretation there to me.

 

[gollum]

No myth at all.

There have been several authors that claim the LDM is just a myth. When you read their books, it all basically comes down to what Dirty Dutchman said "If I couldn't find it, it must not exist!" The same goes for KVM, Robert Sikorsky, and a couple of others.

Most people that have seriously researched the matter believe the LDM exists. Some, for reasons of their own may publicly deny it, but say something different in private discussions. Some not for any bad intentions. Some trying to save lives.

We see it all too often; somebody gets a map from some secret source, wanders into the Supers, and disappears from the face of the earth only to have their remains found years later. Leave the Dutch Hunting to the Dutch Hunters. People that know those mountains, and know how to survive them. If everybody said the LDM doesn't exist, then maybe one tenderfoot would change their mind about going to the Supers in Summer and not die. That might be worth precipitating a lie about no LDM.

As for me, I am of the "survival of the fittest" persuasion. That's why there aren't guard rails around the Grand Canyon. If you're dumb enough to lean over the edge of a 3000 foot precipice, maybe you shouldn't breed?

Best - Mike

 

[sgriffith59]

I seriously agree. I am 63, but in the 70's I was all over that mountain. Can't do it now though. I truly believe it is there and as I said before it may not be a mine but a repository from Jesuits and or the Peraltas

Sent from my iPhone using TreasureNet

 

[Cubfan64]

As for me, I am of the "survival of the fittest" persuasion.

I couldn't agree with you more Mike. I believe in the principal of personal responsibility as well. Wherever I go and whatever I do, I'm responsible for knowing the risks associated with it. If (or more likely when) I make a dumb decision out there that causes me injury, I know I have nobody but myself to blame.

We have a "behavioral based" safety program at work in which the basic premiss is that every accident is preventable (with the exception of "acts of God). During root cause investigations of incidents and near misses, it's amazing how almost 100% of the time the chain of events that leads to the accident is started by an action (or inaction) of a person.

Unfortunately, our company doesn't go the next step in truly trying to figure out why that action was taken and work to prevent the behavior. Instead we tend to take the easy way out by instilling more paperwork, more warning signs, revised SOP's, etc... that in the end just make management feel good, but really do nothing to fix that root cause.

We have some labs that are almost literally plastered with warning and hazard signs everywhere - to the point where there's so many of them that nobody reads any of them anymore!

Ok... off my soapbox now, but suffice to say if I ever die in the Superstition Mountains I assume full responsibility.

 

[Springfield]

No myth at all.

There have been several authors that claim the LDM is just a myth. When you read their books, it all basically comes down to what Dirty Dutchman said "If I couldn't find it, it must not exist!" The same goes for KVM, Robert Sikorsky, and a couple of others.

Most people that have seriously researched the matter believe the LDM exists. Some, for reasons of their own may publicly deny it, but say something different in private discussions. Some not for any bad intentions. Some trying to save lives.

We see it all too often; somebody gets a map from some secret source, wanders into the Supers, and disappears from the face of the earth only to have their remains found years later. Leave the Dutch Hunting to the Dutch Hunters. People that know those mountains, and know how to survive them. If everybody said the LDM doesn't exist, then maybe one tenderfoot would change their mind about going to the Supers in Summer and not die. That might be worth precipitating a lie about no LDM.

As for me, I am of the "survival of the fittest" persuasion. That's why there aren't guard rails around the Grand Canyon. If you're dumb enough to lean over the edge of a 3000 foot precipice, maybe you shouldn't breed?

Best - Mike

Whoa ... slow down, hoss. Wait a minute.

First, yes, some folks who have researched the LDM do believe it exists. 'Most?' That's a bit aggressive - we could just as easily say 'most' don't believe it. Even though the legend's supporters, for whatever reasons, may be heard more often and perhaps more loudly, it might be enlightening to hear why others have moved on.

If von Mueller had an opinion, I'd say most people would be likely to consider what he thought and why. At least we have his own words and reasons available for consideration, which is a helluva lot more than the hearsay that supports the LDM legend. If I had a choice of faith to make, I'd rather get my input first hand.

Finally, are you seriously claiming that people 'who know' are saying that the LDM does not exist for the purpose of saving would-be searchers from themselves? Did I hear that right? You've surprised me twice in the past week. The last one was your claim that the Jesuits have not recovered all their treasure because they've forgotten where thet hid it - or did I read that wrong too? This TH stuff is sounding more and more like 'the dog ate my homework.'

 

[Cubfan64]

chlsbrns stated:

"Shortcutting trail switchbacks is prohibited. This practice damages the trail, soil, and vegetation

"

Can you provide me with a link to the Tonto Basin / USFS / Superstition Wilderness Area sponsored specific rule that states that prohibition please?

Wilderness.net does not count as they clearly state the following: "The most common types of wilderness regulations are listed below. Not all regulations are in effect for every wilderness."

Thanks

 

[markmar]

Paul

All the laws/rules in all over the world have " windows " to can be manipulated . Don't forget how those who make the laws/rules are thinking first in their interest .

 

[sgtfda]

Well all those rules did not stop the Pitt mine crew they did it.

 

[flyadive]

Rules are made to be broken. If you found the LDM then you should not blab about it, just move to Dutch land instead. There are people who don't want you looking for the LDM. That is why they bring up rules! Are there rules in war? Yes but for the straight shooters!

 

[Springfield]

It's always been my plan to ask forgiveness after the fact, if necessary, rather than to ask permission beforehand. That said, it's also a good idea to be well-informed about your legal liabilities if things 'go wrong'.

In the case being discussed, it would seem likely to me that the Feds would come down hard on a blatant violation of the Wilderness Act, if for no other reason than to send a clear signal. If you think you're a ninja, you ought to make sure you know what you're doing. Of course, if you're just 'lookin' around,' no problem.