The lost dutchman is a myth?

[sgriffith59]

Rules are made to be broken is what gives metal detectorist a and treasure hunters a bad name. If you can do this and find it without getting busted fine, but if you get caught you will need all that gold you find for attorney fees and fines.

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[flyadive]

I bet you make various motor vehicle incidents everyday! That's what gives us good drivers a bad name!

 

[sgriffith59]

Nope, just morons

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[roadrunner]

In this case if I am ever asked how come I am digging a hole, and they ask if I am treasure hunting, or prospecting, or getting a sample, I am going to say none of the above.
I am digging my 4-6 inch (cat-hole) to pee in.

 

[gollum]

Whoa ... slow down, hoss. Wait a minute.

First, yes, some folks who have researched the LDM do believe it exists. 'Most?' That's a bit aggressive - we could just as easily say 'most' don't believe it. Even though the legend's supporters, for whatever reasons, may be heard more often and perhaps more loudly, it might be enlightening to hear why others have moved on.

If von Mueller had an opinion, I'd say most people would be likely to consider what he thought and why. At least we have his own words and reasons available for consideration, which is a helluva lot more than the hearsay that supports the LDM legend. If I had a choice of faith to make, I'd rather get my input first hand.

Finally, are you seriously claiming that people 'who know' are saying that the LDM does not exist for the purpose of saving would-be searchers from themselves? Did I hear that right? You've surprised me twice in the past week. The last one was your claim that the Jesuits have not recovered all their treasure because they've forgotten where thet hid it - or did I read that wrong too? This TH stuff is sounding more and more like 'the dog ate my homework.'

Springy,

YES, you read it, but are not giving an accurate interpretation of my theory! My thinking on the subject (Jesuits) is that very few people were trusted with the secrets of how to recover the wealth they hid before their suppression. If you read about what REALLY happened during their subsequent arrests, force marched all the way across Mexico (to the Pacific Coast), crammed into a small ship with hardly any water or food, taken to the Southern part of Mexico, force marched again all the way across Mexico (to the Gulf of Mexico), crammed into other ships, and being returned to Europe to be jailed for many years, you would find that quite a few of the Jesuit Fathers died in transit. I think that it is entirely possible the fathers that were responsible for keeping the secrets of the locations of their wealth died without being able to pass that information on. My evidence for this is the fact that in Rio de Janiero in 1891, while tearing down an old castle, the construction company found a huge Jesuit Treasure in the cellars. About 70,000,000 Spanish Dollars in gold, as well as dust and ingots. If the Jesuits still had all the knowledge about their Western Hemisphere Treasures, and they were reinstated as an Order in 1814, then why did that treasure sit there for one hundred and thirty-two years (the Jesuits were suppressed by Portugal in 1759) only to be found by a demolition crew?

You know that I have been quite active on many of the forums regarding treasure hunting, and the Lost Dutchman for many years. In those years, I have seen a preponderance of the people that spend the time looking for real facts of the story believe that at least one rich gold mine lies in the Superstition Mountains. Most believe that Jacob Waltz found that mine and worked it for several years until getting too old to get back to it. That is where most of the researchers cease to agree on everything. Everything else is up in the air like, where in the Supers it is? Were the Peralta and Gonzalez families really in the Supers? Which clues are authentic and which ones made up?

There are many established events that back up the idea of a rich gold mine in the Supers: The Two Soldiers, Joe Deering, Doc Thorne, etc. The evidence that Waltz had a rich mine mostly comes from Jake's own mouth when trying to instruct Reinhard Petrasch on how to find his cache. He said that Reiney wasn't a miner and his mine was very hard to get to (in awful rough country), and there was enough in the last cache to make them wealthy.

....and I am still a believer that most of the "known clues" regarding the location of this mine are BS. I think they were made up and spread by locals who wanted the tourist money, but wanted the tourists looking far away from where they believed the mine was located.

.....and yes. I believe that some (I could not place an accurate number on it) publicly state that the LDM is a myth to keep tenderfeet out of the mountains. I believe that there are also some that spout the "myth idea" to keep potential rivals out of the mountains. For as long as I have been involved with the people who have spent many years in and out of the Dutch Hunting Community, I have seen a lot! I have been threatened (didn't work though), I have seen people post one thing, then privately say exactly the opposite. It is a well known fact that many people have inscribed fake rock carvings in the mountains to throw off other Dutch Hunters. I have also run into a lot of very nice and accommodating people who would give you the shirt off their backs if you really needed it. Some of them are very secretive about their private knowledge. Some are more open.

and I stand by my statement that MOST of the serious LDM researchers believe the mine exists.

Best - Mike

 

[Springfield]

Mike, when I read your reply, I realized that for the most part, our opinions on the Superstition rumors are quite similar. My working model is that there is something of great value secreted in the Gila/Salt region and that the standing 'Lost Dutchman Mine' lore is total disinformation. Waltz may or may not be directly involved - he may be a convenient patsy. Are there old gold mines scattered in the area? Sure, there are old gold mines scattered all over AZ/NM. Is the 'richest mine in the world' hidden in the Superstitions? Well, for my part, a serious commitment to find such a patch of dirt requires much more than hearsay and innuendo.

However, re the Rio de Janeiro castle story - I've seen the old newspaper clipping, but no hard facts that support it. These treasure adventure stories in newspapers can't be considered 'evidence', but are little more than sensationalism. IMO, your argument needs a stronger foundation. The Jesuits have always been among the sharpest knives in the drawer and if they had access to enormous stores of precious metals and the time to hide them, I'm not buying the idea that they didn't have the ability and means to later retrieve the 'hoards'. Perhaps there aren't 'hoards'. Or, if there are 'hoards', they don't belong to the Jesuits.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfield, as usual you rated a +, but I will take issue with you on the Jesuits being able to retrieve their lost mines and treasures. In the example of the lost Tayopa, yes, while they were gone, the Indians did hide the entrance, and under the specific conditions that it existed, they were unable to find it again, but since the basic region was so productive, they apparantly didn't really care, but happily went on mining in the area.

As for stories of metal, still being unfound, possibly, when you consider them as being an extremely patient group dedicated to the advancement of their order, they thought nothing of waiting a generation or two to retrieve them.

Never sell the Jesuits short, nor especially, Mother Nature's ability to change things in a short orde, often one huge, violent storm alone could do this.

Don Jose d e La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

...As for stories of metal, still being unfound, possibly, when you consider them as being an extremely patient group dedicated to the advancement of their order, they thought nothing of waiting a generation or two to retrieve them.

Never sell the Jesuits short, nor especially, Mother Nature's ability to change things in a short orde, often one huge, violent storm alone could do this.

Don Jose d e La Mancha

But, TTramp, 250 years? Well, now that Francis is in the catbird seat, are we to expect some action? You know, gold for the shoeless masses, courtesy of the SJ, the new reformers of Vatican City?

Or have the Jesuits simply been incorrectly ID'd all these years as the poster boys for the 'lost mines and hidden treasure' legends in the Southwest?

 

[gollum]

Spring,

That story was also in the Canadian Law Journal in 1892. Not just some wild newspaper article.




I personally believe that there is more than one source of great wealth in the Supers. I think the Peralta and Gonzalez Families owned several mines there, and I also believe there is great wealth stored there. By stored there, I mean hidden there by the Jesuits before their suppression in 1767. I put a lot of stock in two or three of the caves of gold bars stories (mainly the Harry LaFrance and Estee Conatser Caves of Gold Bars Stories). I believe in the Harry LaFrance story because Joe's Uncle actually held one of the gold bars. So did Tracy Hawkins. I think that pile of bullion is still out there. I also have an idea that there is something to Walter Perrine's family history, because the story his mother told him coincides with a story told by Ed Piper and Robert Crandall about something in the area of Black Top Butte.

...... also, I don't believe in some all-encompassing Jesuit guide to hiding treasure. If that were the case, then the Jesuits would have long ago recovered all their cached wealth.

Best - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Have to agree with Gollum on several points here; the odds are very high that some stored wealth, which may have been officially viewed as belonging to "the church" though in Jesuit possession, were lost due to the expulsion. An example is in the storied treasure of del Bac mission; which was hidden away, brought out on the return of the Jesuit padres, then hidden away again at the invasion of the Confederates into AZ, and has never been seen since. The vast silver altar and service were seen and attested by many visitors to Bac, yet not a trace of it is seen today, and since the Jesuits nor Franciscans have made any attempt to find it again, plus based on what is said, the location where said silver was hidden has been lost. Possibly due to earthquake, or blasting down a lot of rock on top. It would be surprising if every stash of "church" treasure were known to the Order today, or logically some kind of effort would be made to recover it even if via lawsuits. In my opinion there is every reason to believe that several caches of "church" treasures are lost and unknown to the Jesuits, or the Church for that matter today. Even father Polzer admitted this possibility.

Also have to agree with Don Jose, that the Jesuit Order does not view things in terms of the lifetime of one man, but in centuries, or however long it takes to achieve their goals. The Order lives on regardless of the life span of any member of it. I don't expect to see the Jesuit Pope start spending the accumulated wealth of the Church to help alleviate the suffering of the poor on any large scale however. I hope that I am wrong about the new Pope, it would be a pleasant surprise if he did.

Maybe we could alter Mike's statement about the majority of opinion concerning Waltz and the LDM; to say that most, if not all Dutch-hunters, certainly believe there is a factual basis. Not everyone here discussing the topic is a Dutch hunter, so the majority of opinion is a matter of some doubt.

Last point, also in agreement with Mike, but there is reason to believe there are several lost mines in the Superstition mountains (and I include adjoining areas that people do not consider the Supers today) as well as more than one cache of treasure. An example of treasure would be the loot of Hacksaw Tom, whom had robbed the stage repeatedly and had a hidden camp somewhere deep in the Superstitions - none of this loot has ever been recovered, and his robberies are fairly well documented. As an aside, I must respectfully disagree that newspaper accounts are "sensationalist" especially for such things as stage robberies, which are basically reporting a crime. Certainly some newspaper articles were done with an eye to promote the area for outside interests/investment/settlers etc but a closer look would show you that the truth exceeded the promotion, for Arizona (and all the western states) certainly produced fortunes in precious and base metals, even gemstones etc.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

may i add a point many are missing here....the jesuit left under a cloud...not only did spain want the jesuit removed...so did the natives in most cases...
there were drawn out arguments over who owned the church property...and who would be in control of the property after the jesuit left...
while many items were removed and hidden...many were left in place...to be looted at a later time.

some people forget that water and fertile land were far more valuable than gilded santos and altar decorations.
the natives knew who worked the mines an fields...and who should maintain control of the fruits of their labors...

 

[Oroblanco]

Pippinwhitepaws wrote

the natives knew who worked the mines an fields...and who should maintain control of the fruits of their labors...

Amen amigo - for proof of this, besides the Bac mission treasure, we could point to the Vekol mine; for over a century it was a lost Jesuit mine or "myth" but the Pimas knew exactly where it was all along, and had no trouble taking Dr Walker right to it. Unfortunately, the few elders trusted with these locations passed away, and in many cases (probably most) the knowledge has been lost over time. Another point to this is that it is from these Indians, that many (or perhaps most) of the lost mine, lost treasure stories can be traced to, passing the knowledge of the existence and the stories behind them to the Anglos.

Sorry for drifting off topic there, especially as I am far from convinced that Jacob Waltz's mine had anything to do with Spaniards or Jesuits etc.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have serious doubts about your "proof". As you know, that's nothing new. On the other hand, I respect your opinion. Here is what NPS has to say, for those who may not know:

Tumacacori's Yesterdays (The Treasure of Tumacacori)

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Drifting Into the Weeds

Roy,

I have serious doubts about your "proof". As you know, that's nothing new. On the other hand, I respect your opinion. Here is what NPS has to say, for those who may not know:

Tumacacori's Yesterdays (The Treasure of Tumacacori)

Good luck,

Joe

Joe - I did not point to Tumacacori but San Xavier del Bac; do you contend that the mission of Bac, did not have a massive amount of silver, which is not there to be seen today? Thanks in advance, and by the way, you are aware that the NPS has held the polar opposite "opinion" about Tumacacori, treasure and Jesuit mining until fairly recently right? Do you agree, that in most history subjects, the closer you get to the actual events, the more accurate your sources are likely to be?

At the risk of heading FAR off into the weeds, I can back up my assertion that the treasures of San Xavier del Bac were hidden by the Indians who lived there, brought out for the return of the Jesuits, and today are LOST. Quote

In 1863 thirty five years after its abandonment it was again taken possession of by two members of the order who founded it. These priests were from Los Angeles California and accompanied the first Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr Poston when he visited the Territory. Great was the joy of the simple Papagos at having the black gowns once more among them. The gold and silver vessels of the altar and all the other valuable ornaments were brought forth from the secure hiding places where they had remained undisturbed all these long vears nave chancel and altar were gay-ly decorated lights flashed from every column and the voices of the happy Papagos filled the dim aisles and lofty arches of the old church with songs of joy and gladness. Since then religious services are held regularly and a school has been established by the Sisters of St Joseph but the pastor resides in Tucson and the edifice is left entirely in charge of the Indians who take the greatest of it

The resources of Arizona, Patrick Hamilton, pp 378

There are other sources which confirm this, but further, the Vekol mine is another example of a long-lost mine, known to the Indians whom had been forced to work it, shown to their friend Dr. John Walker. Do you deny that the Vekol mine exists? Do we have any reason NOT to believe that it was shown to Dr Walker by his friend the Indians?

Really Joe your standards and/or sources for "proof" are rather questionable to my view; the Park Service whom you point to as proof, has changed its tune from one polar opposite to the other, the great historian father Polzer, was himself a Jesuit, and when has any Jesuit ever admitted to any kind of wrong-doing? This should really raise red flags for you, as it does for me, when the great majority of OLD historical sources are at odds with what is today claimed about this topic. We have discussed this in depth, at length, (some might say ad nauseum) and can point to sources like the Congressional Record, the National Geographic Society, and even the Jesuits themselves in some cases. The National Park Service has a vested interest in denying any truth to the Tumacacori mission treasure, as they do NOT wish to see the old ruins destroyed by careless treasure hunters. A good reason for sure, and I seriously doubt that any such treasure would have been concealed AT the mission itself anyway.

Sorry, getting carried away there, but seriously Joe, do you expect that the Jesuits of today, and the Park service, are going to publish complete admissions that there were huge amounts of precious metals being mined by the early missionaries, and a great deal of the metals were never shipped but concealed, that the Jesuits were using forced labor of the Indians to not only work in the mines but farming, herding cattle, building, making charcoal and lime etc? Do you really think that will ever happen?

My apologies to the thread owner for drifting so far off topic, just to prove a point. Please do continue, I will not push this matter further as I do not expect to change Joe's mind on anything.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

It has been part and parcel for the NPS and the Jesuit Order to spread lies about the extent of mining activities in the Santa Cruz River Valley. They do it for a very noble reason (IMHO). As long as people believe there is vast wealth buried under the old missions and churches, then there will always be some idiots sneaking in and digging up the place. In an article Father Polzer SJ wrote for Desert Magazine, he describes visiting the Tumacacori Mission. He tells about how the wall has been so badly undercut by treasure hunters digging tunnels under it, it was on the verge of falling over. There were exploratory holes dug all over the grounds both inside and outside the wall. Here is an example of some proud treasure hunters:



In later years State Rep Raul Grijalva has been preaching the same thing for altogether different reasons.

When it comes to honesty, the NPS is not a shining star. Take for instance the "Molina Document". Even going by the story Mitchell told regarding its origin, A sister Micaela Molina, while working at some archives in Rome, came across a document that she recognized as pertaining to the general area where her family lived in Arizona. She hand copied the document and hid it away until she could get back home. It stayed with the family until Mitchell got it from them in the 1930s.

Two of the argumentsa the NPS uses for showing how the document is a fake are:

1. It is written in print (which the Colonial Spanish NEVER did).
2. The orientation of the writing on the paper is wrong for the period.

Now, even in the short version of the story I told, those two arguments are rendered null and void! Sister Molina HAND COPIED THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT. Nobody ever said the Molina Document was an original Colonial Spanish Manuscript.

............... also, the present site of the Tumacacori Mission is not the original one.

............... also, notice how the NPS tries to undervalue just how much mining was going on during Colonial Spanish Times. The "Planchas de Plata" is only about 30 miles due South of the Tumacacori Mission. The Wandering Jew Mine only about 8 miles Southeast....... and on and on and on. Some of the area between Tucson and Nogales is so undercut with old mineshafts you can't walk across many fields for fear of falling into a stope.

NPS:

"We have no real evidence of mining in this region during the Spanish Mission Period; the story on this frontier, in the 18th century and first two decades of the 19th, is rather that of the occasional prospector and explorer, who knew that the only sure way to capture attention and support for his particular project was to report every possibility of mineral wealth to the King of Spain, whose treasury was never sufficient for Spain's world-wide commitments. South of the Spanish outposts along the Santa Cruz Valley, a few adventurous men did a little prospecting and worked a vein of silver or washed gold for a short time, until the vein or pocket pinched out, or the Apaches drove them away. Even the fabulously rich find of the 'Planchas de Plata,' 30 miles south of Tumacacori, where large pieces of silver were picked up on the surface, was not developed into a mine; the 'mother lode' was never found. The only known operating mine in the whole of Arizona and New Mexico during Spanish times was the copper mine at Santa Rita, New Mexico, developed after 1800.

That quote is an absolute LIE (see mines noted above)!

Best - Mike