Sims Ely

[pippinwhitepaws]

I sat down last night an re-read the Ely book...

I guess I should back up an introduce myself...as a wild child I was known in superior, arizona as Donnie Peterson. on the rez, I became known as Donald...
one must keep up a certain level of politeness and formality with the locals...
at the university{he's a lumberjack...},
a ba in native American religions {Allen Jim, keeper of the west gate of the Anna May Sun Dance at big mountain, for seven years, is my uncle},
a minor in anthropology, a masters in southwest history an museum science...{museum science is bogus, I am a born curator}...

I am the most nosy person ever to wander the mountains of this wonderful state...
under rocks, into mines, over cliffs, stuck in the bradshaws for a week in snow, while the entire state looked for lost females out of show low...
safety be damned, I wanted to know what was over there, an nothing stood in my way...surprising I made it this far...
{this information is only so ya don't jump out of a bag on me...I really do know what I speak of, even if you don't believe it..}

anyway...this text raises some questions...
Ely describes an entirely different Dutchman than most rumor mills...an educated, well spoken, coward...

so anyway...anyone have an opinion on his information?
sure makes me wish whomever has his an mr. barks notes would trust me to review them...so much of his information fits with the story I was given as a teenager running wild...

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[Matthew Roberts]

secretcanyon,

It had been my belief for many years that Sims Ely did not write the Lost Dutchman Mine book he was credited with authoring. It has since been proven that was exactly the case. The book was written by an editor for Morrow Press publications. Sims Ely and Jim Bark's notes were allegedly used to write the story. So many glaring discrepancies appear in the story that if the ghost author used the Ely-Bark notes, it would seem Ely and Bark didn't know Jacob Waltz or any of the characters closely related with him, even in passing. On the other hand, if the ghost author took full literary lisence and wrote on his own to create a good, readable and interesting story, that would explain the discrepancies throughout the book and complete lack of knowledge concerning the main characters and many of the events.

It would seem Ely was not even involved with the editing or oversight of the book. If he had been, possibly the discrepancies would have been corrected. Or, maybe he was involved, and the discrepancies were not discrepancies to him as far as his knowledge of the matter was concerned. The book is still a good read and one of the best stories ever told concerning the Lost Dutchman mine. I pick it up and reread it every now and then and thoroughly enjoy it.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks matthew...
I wondered how a man could have such a great memory at his age...

 

[cactusjumper]

Don,

Ely never met Waltz. Believe he arrived on the scene well after Waltz's death. Bark's notes were used in writing his book, whoever did the actual work. Dr. Glover is close to publishing another book, and the Ely family gave him Sims' collection for source material. That will become the best source available for Sims Ely, as it comes directly from the family.

Matthew Roberts is well known in the Dutch Hunting Community. As with all sources on the LDM, which includes me, you should be cautious accepting any information he provides.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks joe...I knew ely never met waltz...it just seems he took a step back from obsession in his study.
I understand matthew is an accomplished study...

caution? yea...right...that's my middle name...
but I would like to see the notes bark an ely created...they are historical artifacts...I had never heard of the sleeping situation...pits dug an burned to warm the earth...curious.
wish I had my legs under me...I need to go see some things.

for anyone not clear..it is my belief, if the mine exists...the wealth is not the gold to be recovered, but in the tourist attraction...
that mine would be more popular to visit than the grand canyon...left in situ, covered in glass...gift shop..ect...

 

[somehiker]

thanks joe...I knew ely never met waltz...it just seems he took a step back from obsession in his study.
I understand matthew is an accomplished study...

caution? yea...right...that's my middle name...
but I would like to see the notes bark an ely created...they are historical artifacts...I had never heard of the sleeping situation...pits dug an burned to warm the earth...curious.
wish I had my legs under me...I need to go see some things.

for anyone not clear..it is my belief, if the mine exists...the wealth is not the gold to be recovered, but in the tourist attraction...
that mine would be more popular to visit than the grand canyon...left in situ, covered in glass...gift shop..ect...

I like your idea SC.
If I'm the one that finds it , all I want is the photo concession. Fake beards and Dutchman duds to fit all sizes... men,women and kids too.
A stuffed burro, fully packed would be a nice touch ... whaddya think ?.
Maybe Joe could be my first customer..... View attachment beard smiley.bmp

Regards:SH.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

all except the fake beard...i'm in...

this mine is too important to the history of Arizona to be ravaged and sold for metal price.



{hey..my old sheltie dogs' name was pippinwhitepaws...just for full disclosure...}
this is where my avatar is from...I believe it was an outbuilding...really close to the border...I forget which side.
http://www.slaughterranch.com/history/

 

[Ellie Baba]

Native American Sara

I sat down last night an re-read the Ely book...

I guess I should back up an introduce myself...as a wild child I was known in superior, arizona as Donnie Peterson. on the rez, I became known as Donald...
one must keep up a certain level of politeness and formality with the locals...
at the university{he's a lumberjack...},
a ba in native American religions {Allen Jim, keeper of the west gate of the Anna May Sun Dance at big mountain, for seven years, is my uncle},
a minor in anthropology, a masters in southwest history an museum science...{museum science is bogus, I am a born curator}...

I am the most nosy person ever to wander the mountains of this wonderful state...
under rocks, into mines, over cliffs, stuck in the bradshaws for a week in snow, while the entire state looked for lost females out of show low...
safety be damned, I wanted to know what was over there, an nothing stood in my way...surprising I made it this far...
{this information is only so ya don't jump out of a bag on me...I really do know what I speak of, even if you don't believe it..}

anyway...this text raises some questions...
Ely describes an entirely different Dutchman than most rumor mills...an educated, well spoken, coward...

so anyway...anyone have an opinion on his information?
sure makes me wish whomever has his an mr. barks notes would trust me to review them...so much of his information fits with the story I was given as a teenager running wild...

Hi Don,

Superior, a step back in time. Thru the years we have frequented the town on many occasions just simply for the food. Some of the best menudo in the state (IMO) satisfied our tongues and palates.

Picket Post Mountain, or El Tordillo as it was well known back in the day is still there. Who was El Tordillo? A dapple gray horse who by chance or purpose was/is related to El Cobollo. Some of you may know that the capitol rune symbol "M", represents horse or two horses depending upon the word chosen.

I quote: "The third rune of the third aett bears the reconstructed Common Germanic name Ehwaz. Later, its name became Aihws in Gothic (note how archaic Gothic is), and still later, Eh in Anglo-Saxon. If you remember that “k” in Indo-European changed to “h” in Germanic, it’s easy to see that Ehwaz is a close cognate to the Latin “equus,” meaning of course, “horse.” We have borrowed the Latin word “equine,” meaning “having to do with horses,” is a borrowing from the Latin and a good way to remember the name of this rune. the sound associated with this rune is that of the letter “E,” but in its “continental” value; that is “eh” or even “ayy” (as enunciated by Fonzie on Happy Days). Still, many use this letter for writing the English letter “E” without creating confusion. The important thing is to make a clear distinction in pronunciation between “Ehwaz,” the horse-rune and Eihwaz or Ihwaz, the yew-rune. Since Ehwaz did not carry over into the Younger Futhark, only the Old English Rune Poem has a verse for it. Isa, as “Is” filled in for both letters in the Younger Futhark. The OERP describes horses being a joy for princes, all in a battle context. “And it (the horse) is always a comfort to the restless.” That is true enough. The bond between humans and horses is a deep, ancient and enduring one." http://home.earthlink.net/~jordsvin/Runes/Rune Of The Month/Rune 19 - Ehwaz.htm

The horse has been represented as a knight both in chess and in history. It is no surprise to find many different Sara monuments depicting both of these images and of the symbol "M".

Don, my question to you is have you ever seen the dapple grey horse on Picket Post or the "M" symbol carved in the rock cliffs? Many of the old Mexican miners have stated that El Tordillo still runs before his King in all of his glory.

Springfield,

The Norse god Ing is represented by the 22nd rune "◊" and this god also rode a magnificent "M". Where have we seen this diamond shape before... Hmmm. By the way this rune is soon modified and becomes one of the most revered symbols in the Masonic Lodge.


Later,

Ellie B

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Ellie, no on 'seeing' a horse...but...that mountain has some strange activity...or it did at the time I was there...

 

[Matthew Roberts]

secretcanyon,

you wrote in your post: "but I would like to see the notes bark an ely created...they are historical artifacts... I had never heard of the sleeping situation...pits dug an burned to warm the earth...curious.
wish I had my legs under me...I need to go see some things."

While the Ely family has the notes of Sims Ely, and those notes include the "Bark notes", they are not the only, nor maybe even the closest to the true source.

The original Bark notes, in their complete form are not with the Ely family, they are with the Spangler family of Huntington Beach and Mission Viejo California. John Spangler was Jim Bark's nephew and searched the Superstition mountains using his uncles notes and personal advice. John Spangler died a few years back but his son and grandchildren retain all his papers, notes and secrets.

In December of 1936, less than a year before Jim Bark's death, he gave a speech on the Lost Dutchman Mine to the Az. Historical Society in Tucson. I have a copy of that speech, transcribed by the Historical Society, and it is interesting as it contains many things that Ely never mentioned and leaves out almost completely, Ely and their combined searchings. There is a definite conflict between Ely's accounting and Barks. Both versions should be considered before making up your mind, in my own personal opinion.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Matthew...
I made up my mind in 1967, after watching Milton Rose melt down on someone in superior...that mine, if it exists... makes good honest people insane.
the basic flaw..in the entire story, no matter whom is the author, is why legal claim was never made to the site, at the time....
previous Mexican claims certainly had no bearing on a ownership by an American citizen...
the death of a few Mexicans, wouldn't have concerned anyone in the legal profession at the time...
the whole thing just doesn't make a bit of sense...

now if someone had a map to de grazias' stash of paintings...i'd be on it fast.
The legend of the lost DeGrazia paintings buried in the Superstition Mountains - Paranormal Old Pueblo

 

[cactusjumper]

secretcanyon,

you wrote in your post: "but I would like to see the notes bark an ely created...they are historical artifacts... I had never heard of the sleeping situation...pits dug an burned to warm the earth...curious.
wish I had my legs under me...I need to go see some things."

While the Ely family has the notes of Sims Ely, and those notes include the "Bark notes", they are not the only, nor maybe even the closest to the true source.

The original Bark notes, in their complete form are not with the Ely family, they are with the Spangler family of Huntington Beach and Mission Viejo California. John Spangler was Jim Bark's nephew and searched the Superstition mountains using his uncles notes and personal advice. John Spangler died a few years back but his son and grandchildren retain all his papers, notes and secrets.

In December of 1936, less than a year before Jim Bark's death, he gave a speech on the Lost Dutchman Mine to the Az. Historical Society in Tucson. I have a copy of that speech, transcribed by the Historical Society, and it is interesting as it contains many things that Ely never mentioned and leaves out almost completely, Ely and their combined searchings. There is a definite conflict between Ely's accounting and Barks. Both versions should be considered before making up your mind, in my own personal opinion.

Matthew K. Roberts

Kraig,

The question is.........Since your opinion is that it's possible that Sims did not even write his book, how can you compare his "alleged" version to Bark,s? Have you seen the notes (seventh version) held by the Spangler family? Considering the number of Dutch Hunters who have told bald-faced lies about the subject and produced fake documentation, I'm sure you know what I'm referring to, how can we trust a talk given by Jim Bark in 1936?

Since Bark was thinking of writing a book of his own, how do we know he wasn't just seeding the ground, so to speak, for his book aspirations. As you know, it's not uncommon for an author to make up stories before publishing his work, and floating them in public to give more weight to his book when it's finally published.

Speaking of that, when is your book going to the publisher?

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

.... Springfield,

The Norse god Ing is represented by the 22nd rune "◊" and this god also rode a magnificent "M". Where have we seen this diamond shape before... Hmmm. By the way this rune is soon modified and becomes one of the most revered symbols in the Masonic Lodge.

Ellie B

Don't know much about runes, but horses are interesting - does Caballo Blanco have any significance?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

here is a link to the "treasure cave" sims speaks about...Skeleton Cave Massacre

notice the statement: the floor of the cave is now 3 1/2 feet below the historic level...
and no treasure found...

ya mon...lets go did up a grave for the buttons an pocket watches...

 

[tom dunkle]

Spangler

Hello Mr. Roberts

I enjoyed reading your comments and thank you for taking the time to share.

I do have a point hopefully you would comment on. Didn`t Spangler come to the conclusion that the LDM was on Black Top Mesa?

Thanks

Tom

 

[Ellie Baba]

Caballo Blanco

Don't know much about runes, but horses are interesting - does Caballo Blanco have any significance?

Only if your studying the Book of Revelations!

EL B

 

[cactusjumper]

Only if your studying the Book of Revelations!

EL B

Or the Long Ranger......

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Or the Long Ranger......

Joe

Ok, I'll bite.....how long was he ??

 

[cactusjumper]

Ok, I'll bite.....how long was he ??

221 Episodes........

 

[Matthew Roberts]

secretcanyon,

You are right about Milton Rose. Sadly he went round the bend before he passed on and didn't know what he was doing or saying. He was an interesting character and left us some remarkable writings for us to think about. I have to agree with you on the Waltz-Mexican issue. That part has always bothered me also. Unless he personally knew one or more of the Mexicans he killed and would have to face their families at some point in time. If we ever get a lead on where DeGrazia may have buried those paintings, we would have a lead to a real goldmine !

tomdunkle,

Yes, I believe John Spangler focused on both Black Top and Bluff Spring Mountain, wavering back and forth. Black Top being his first area of interest. John Spangler was open about talking about his Uncle Jim Bark, his searching and what he believed until his son asked him not to talk to people about it and that ended all further communications. I don't think he was the last Spangler to hike the mountains.

Matthew K. Roberts