Dutchman Ore

[sgtfda]

Buy low, sell high. I'm a also a Graduate Gemologist and a goldsmith. I advised Bob his prongs needed tightened on the ring. The ore was ready to fall out.

 

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[Springfield]

That was my thought when I first saw the ring from a pic on this forum.
Same with the matchbox, at least to me,where is the proof.
Was it even under the bed, on Waltz, or even in his house.
Unless I am missing something.

You're not missing anything. The entire legend is like an upside-down pyramid balanced on its point.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Several people have sent me a PM with various questions and asked how much was paid for the piece of Dutchman ore in the ring and if they might also buy a piece of the ore for themselves. Somehow, somewhere, they got the ridiculous misguided belief someone had sold the owner of the ring the ore.

None of the "dutchman" ore has ever been sold or offered for sale to anyone. None of this ore is for sale today or at any time in the future. The piece of ore you see in the ring was specifically requested by the owner of the ring. At first the request was politely declined because none of this ore has ever been out in public beyond the assays and analysis done on it and monetary gain is not even a factor. The owner of the ring continued to request a piece of the specific ore and finally was given one of the best and most valuable specimines.

The owner of the ring paid nothing for the ore. It cost him nothing, not a penny, not even the postage to send it.

Three seperate assays/analysis match the ore in the ring to the Dutchman Matchbox and another piece of the Dutchman ore from under the bed of Jacob Waltz. As Dirty Dutchman pointed out earlier, there is no assay/analysis that says the ore is not Dutchman ore.

Matthew K. Roberts


What's that you say ? Well tell my old grandmother ! I've got two two very elegant bedfellows who kick at the first drop of rain and hide in the closet when thunder rumbles. My my my, what great prospectors, two shoe clerks readin a magazine about prospecting for gold in the land of the midnight Sun, south of the border, west of the Rockies.

Let me tell you something my two fine bedfellows, you're so dumb there's nothin to compare you with. You're dumber than the dumbes't jackazz. Look at each other will you ? Did you ever see anything like yourselves for dumb specimines ?

You're so dumb you don't even see the riches you're treadin on with your own two feet !

B. Traven The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

 

[roadrunner]

How come none of the ore is for sale? Who has samples of it and why would they not be willing to sell a little piece.
If someone had a piece could they figure out where the quartz would match a certain area.
Would someone, or some where have on record the matrix or properties of the ore, or is it simply just quartz and gold,and that's it, nothing else to say.

This is what CJ wrote about the ring:Rewritten,but you can read the actual words on the previous page.
Unless CJ lets me quote him.

Bob might not wear his ring, maybe not claiming it's Dutchman's ore. He found out the person who sold it to him was a fraud. He confirmed all of the information for himself, just as I did.

Hope CJ does not mind.

How can you be sure of this statement:From you.
None of this ore is for sale today or at any time in the future.
Who has control of all the ore.
And why would it not be for sale,unless it could be matched up to some other mine by using todays technologies that we didnt have before. Then that would prove all this is fake, or made up if the ore could be matched to another mine not in the sups.

specifically requested by the owner of the ring.Did this person get a special offer because they where writing a book, or something to do with favors.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

How come none of the ore is for sale? Who has samples of it and why would they not be willing to sell a little piece.
If someone had a piece could they figure out where the quartz would match a certain area.
Would someone, or some where have on record the matrix or properties of the ore, or is it simply just quartz and gold,and that's it, nothing else to say.

This is what CJ wrote about the ring:Rewritten,but you can read the actual words on the previous page.
Unless CJ lets me quote him.

Bob might not wear his ring, maybe not claiming it's Dutchman's ore. He found out the person who sold it to him was a fraud. He confirmed all of the information for himself, just as I did.

Hope CJ does not mind.

How can you be sure of this statement:From you.
None of this ore is for sale today or at any time in the future.
Who has control of all the ore.
And why would it not be for sale,unless it could be matched up to some other mine by using todays technologies that we didnt have before. Then that would prove all this is fake, or made up if the ore could be matched to another mine not in the sups.

specifically requested by the owner of the ring.Did this person get a special offer because they where writing a book, or something to do with favors.

If you owned the small amount of Dutchman Ore that's left would you sell it??... I sure as hell wouldn't. And I believe what Matthew is saying is that whoever owns the ore GAVE that piece to Bob as a gift.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

rose quartz gold

Hola amigos,

Sorry I am late to the dance. I have to raise a few objections here, respectfully.

First muchas gracias to mi amigo Homar por la correcion', yes it is Don Jose with the purty mule, and Mrs O has the famous sock coffee, which is really only for true treasure hunters and prospectors. Lessor folk have run away in fear. More on the attractions of a mule in a moment.

Next I have to respectfully disagree with our mutual amigo and learned prospector Springfield, I have met several geologists whom were able to ID ore samples as originating from various mines simply by examining them with a 10x loupe. Yes indeed there is a great deal of variation even within a single vein of a mine, but it is in the exact mix of minerals found in them that helps the geologist (and some assayers) ID them, and they really are as different as fingerprints.

Then there is the rose quartz thing. I have not been able to trace the origins of this mistake having crept into the Lost Dutchman legend, but it is simply not true and if you search for a vein of rose quartz with gold in it, you will not find it in the Lost Dutchman mine for that has a white color not rose. Rose quartz is not simply slightly tinted red, it is a very pretty red.

Next, have to respectfully disagree with Mr Roberts; while I am no geologist, it is not all that unusual to find native silver in a quartz vein with gold. In fact, it is not unusual to find rich veins of gold deep in silver mines, at a certain level, as happened so famously at the Contention mine at Tombstone (if memory serves, among several instances) as it is perfectly natural for gold, silver and copper to occur together in nature.

A striking point, perhaps more mportant, is in the ratio of gold to silver in the Dutchman ore. Dick Holmes had an assay done on some of the ore he retrieved from beneath Jacob Waltz's deathbed, and the ratio of silver to gold was very low indeed. Less than 1 ounce of silver to 200 of gold, which is a common trait for hypothermal type veins. No I am not trying to start an argument about what type of deposit Waltz's mine is, as none of us has the mine the argument can not be settled, however if any particular specimen or sample of ore should appear to have a rather large, noticeable amount of silver in it, visible to the eye, it should raise a red flag as possibly not originating with the mine of Jacob Waltz.

I have examined the photos of the infamous matchbox, and have not been able to positively identify any silver showing in it. That does not mean it is not there either, just that I have not been able to pick it out, even when someone says oh right there. Neither have I been able to ID any trace of any tellurides on that matchbox, which have also gotten the full circulation in the grapevine. Not trying to be a wet blanket, just for our readers, keep your eyes open and do not be led astray with rumors and speculations unfounded in facts.

If anything I said if of offence to anyone, my sincere apologies; my differences of opinion are respectfully submitted and are only my views, not an attempt to attack anyone or any person's theories. I have been prospecting for several decades now and am still learning this business

Lastly, one may well be attracted to a mule. For one thing, they are 100% legal to use in all Wilderness Areas, while our popular 4WD quads are not. Secondly, they operate on grass and what ever grazing they may find, along with water. No quad or woman can do that. A mule can pack several times what a man can carry, or woman for that matter. They are very sure footed and get by on remarkably little water. A good mule will last up to forty years too, how many mechanical devices will last so long. Even the offensive output, manure, is a great fertilizer and organic. A mule can be trained to come when you call it, which will never work for a quad, and mules have been known to kill mountain lions in defense of their master. Now your woman might well defend you in the same way, or she might stop to think about how much life insurance you have currently. So let us not be too quick to turn away from mules when it comes to this business amigos, you very well could have a use for one; heck it might save your life one day.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

.....Next I have to respectfully disagree with our mutual amigo and learned prospector Springfield, I have met several geologists whom were able to ID ore samples as originating from various mines simply by examining them with a 10x loupe. Yes indeed there is a great deal of variation even within a single vein of a mine, but it is in the exact mix of minerals found in them that helps the geologist (and some assayers) ID them, and they really are as different as fingerprints....

I'll go you one better. My old shift boss from the Idarado Mine, Louie Girado, could identify the origins of dozens of samples of gold-bearing ore from numerous stopes in the mine from just looking at it. Why? Because he worked those stopes himself and was familiar with the idiosyncracies of the samples, which varied greatly. The idarado had 360 miles of tunnels and drifts in it. Your geologist friends may also recognize certain ores they were familiar with, sure, but I'd definitely bet against their ability to recognize picture rock from the 1000 level at the Idarado - unless, of course, they'd been there.

The point is, claiming 'the matchbox ore didn't come from any known mine' is patently absurd unless you had a sample from every known mine to compare it with. The deal-breaker is that our usable database of verified ore samples probably excludes 90% or more of historical possibilities, which makes proving a negative result ('it didn't come from xxx') impossible.

Yes, the matchbox ore is nice stuff, but that's about all we can say about it, IMO. [By the way, it's good to see you posting].

 

[cactusjumper]

Several people have sent me a PM with various questions and asked how much was paid for the piece of Dutchman ore in the ring and if they might also buy a piece of the ore for themselves. Somehow, somewhere, they got the ridiculous misguided belief someone had sold the owner of the ring the ore.

None of the "dutchman" ore has ever been sold or offered for sale to anyone. None of this ore is for sale today or at any time in the future. The piece of ore you see in the ring was specifically requested by the owner of the ring. At first the request was politely declined because none of this ore has ever been out in public beyond the assays and analysis done on it and monetary gain is not even a factor. The owner of the ring continued to request a piece of the specific ore and finally was given one of the best and most valuable specimines.

The owner of the ring paid nothing for the ore. It cost him nothing, not a penny, not even the postage to send it.

Three seperate assays/analysis match the ore in the ring to the Dutchman Matchbox and another piece of the Dutchman ore from under the bed of Jacob Waltz. As Dirty Dutchman pointed out earlier, there is no assay/analysis that says the ore is not Dutchman ore.

Matthew K. Roberts


What's that you say ? Well tell my old grandmother ! I've got two two very elegant bedfellows who kick at the first drop of rain and hide in the closet when thunder rumbles. My my my, what great prospectors, two shoe clerks readin a magazine about prospecting for gold in the land of the midnight Sun, south of the border, west of the Rockies.

Let me tell you something my two fine bedfellows, you're so dumb there's nothin to compare you with. You're dumber than the dumbes't jackazz. Look at each other will you ? Did you ever see anything like yourselves for dumb specimines ?

You're so dumb you don't even see the riches you're treadin on with your own two feet !

B. Traven The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

As far as I know, the highlighted, and underlined, portion of the above statement is true. You see, the owner of that ring received it from his wife, Helen, as a gift. Bob has told me the story of how he came by that ring......a number of times. I don't believe the story is something that he would have gotten wrong.

Since Kraig was Helen's source for the ore in that ring, I should think he would know the truth. I have no personal knowledge of the facts in this story, so I am only repeating what I have been told. Many of you know my sources, so you can decide for yourselves.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sgtfda]

When I examined Bobs ring with a 10x loupe I was not impressed with the amount of gold in the ore. I'd bet all the good stuff was sold off years ago.

 

[roadrunner]

DD, depends on how much I had.
Of course I would if I had more than say I could make a ring,or necklace out of,or a silver bracelet with a piece in the middle.
No sense in just having a piece of rock with gold in it just sitting around.
I could buy a mule and search for more gold.
Who's to prove where it came from anyway.
There's none been found except for under his bed.
Maybe he brought it from California.
Maybe from the Bradshaws,Lynx creek,ect.
I am going to look at Ebay from now on once a week.
If I look at ebay or around enough, I could probably find a chunk that would look like it anyway. and pass it off to 90% of anyone who I showed it to.

10 minutes, found one already, $500,
Here's the Title:

Iceburg-White Quartz imbedded with Gold and Silver

This item is a rare, unique, one of a kind, iceberg shaped quartz imbedded with gold and silver.
Found in the Green Mountains of Northern Vermont.It is about 5.5 inches high by 5 inches wide. Weighs 4.2 pounds.

If you want this item, you must make payment within seven days or we reserve the right to relist it.

We will ship this item to the winning bidder for free.

What if I broke it up into smaller pieces so it would be closer to matching the Dutchman ore.



[h=1][/h]

 

[cactusjumper]

Kraig,

So why don't you just tell us how that piece of ore ended up in Bob's ring, and how you came to have it? Bob asked the only person that most people believe had such ore, and he said it was not from his collection.

You are really the best one to tell the story. How do you remember it?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

DD, depends on how much I had.
Of course I would if I had more than say I could make a ring,or necklace out of,or a silver bracelet with a piece in the middle.
No sense in just having a piece of rock with gold in it just sitting around.
I could buy a mule and search for more gold.
Who's to prove where it came from anyway.
There's none been found except for under his bed.
Maybe he brought it from California.
Maybe from the Bradshaws,Lynx creek,ect.
I am going to look at Ebay from now on once a week.
If I look at ebay or around enough, I could probably find a chunk that would look like it anyway. and pass it off to 90% of anyone who I showed it to.

RR,

Actually it's rumored that such a necklace exists, and it's for sale. Asking price, last I heard, was $40,000. Believe that is more than a rumor.....

Take care,

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

I ought to buy that chunk on Ebay.It is pure white quartz,with gold and silver, and 5.5 lbs.
Im sure a hammer would make at least 1 piece that would resemble the Dutchman ore.
Then I could have a $40,000 necklace for sale.
Heck, maybe half a dozen necklaces if im lucky.
What are they going to say,it is white quartz,and gold.
Plus,1 vein can have different matrix's.
I just have to say I found it at florence Junction where the stones where found with my MD.

Am I missing something,Kraig is in this forum posting?

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Hope all is well with you. Glad to see you posting again. Nice picture.

Once met up with a well known knife maker, he was at last years Rendezvous, and he was riding a black mule that was 1/2 Quarter Horse......I believe. When he rode out of our camp, that mule was doing a fast trot up the ravine and through the saddle above us. Don't believe he ever slowed down or took much of a deep breath. Fine animal for those mountains.

Best to you and Beth,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

I ought to buy that chunk on Ebay.It is pure white quartz,with gold and silver, and 5.5 lbs.
Im sure a hammer would make at least 1 piece that would resemble the Dutchman ore.
Then I could have a $40,000 necklace for sale.
Heck, maybe half a dozen necklaces if im lucky.
What are they going to say,it is white quartz,and gold.
Plus,1 vein can have different matrix's.
I just have to say I found it at florence Junction where the stones where found with my MD.

Am I missing something,Kraig is in this forum posting?

Picture rock is harder to come by nowadays, and pricey too - but available, as you noted. In 1974, in America's now extinct mining districts, it was easily available. If a guy knew whose door to knock on in Montrose, CO those days, he could get all he needed from wooden boxes in _____ _____'s garage. He and others collected it on the job to sell to Red Chinese buyers who regularly made the rounds. Yes, as today, the Chinese valued gold then - and for the past couple thousand years too. But that's another topic.

High-grading? The company looked the other way in 1974. For every ounce ______ and pals gouged out of vugs and put in their pie cans, they produced 100 more for the company, and they wanted these guys on the job as good miners were hard to find. In Waltz's day, good looking ore was a common commodity as American mining camps were all over the map and the metal was money then.

Matchbook ore from the LDM? If you want to believe, then believe. Heck, call it King Solomon's gold - you'll probably get people lined up to buy it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Picture rock is harder to come by nowadays, and pricey too - but available, as you noted. In 1974, in America's now extinct mining districts, it was easily available. If a guy knew whose door to knock on in Montrose, CO those days, he could get all he needed from wooden boxes in _____ _____'s garage. He and others collected it on the job to sell to Red Chinese buyers who regularly made the rounds. Yes, as today, the Chinese valued gold then - and for the past couple thousand years too. But that's another topic.

High-grading? The company looked the other way in 1974. For every ounce ______ and pals gouged out of vugs and put in their pie cans, they produced 100 more for the company, and they wanted these guys on the job as good miners were hard to find. In Waltz's day, good looking ore was a common commodity as American mining camps were all over the map and the metal was money then.

Matchbook ore from the LDM? If you want to believe, then believe. Heck, call it King Solomon's gold - you'll probably get people lined up to buy it.

Springfield,

Couldn't be truer.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

These pieces of ore were said to be "Kochera". The man who took the pictures told me he is positive they came out of the Pit Mine:



This was also claimed to be Kochera ore:



As for the ore in Bob Corbin's ring, I would suggest people ask him where he thinks it came from. Not sure if he will be at this year's Rendezvous, but he's always willing to talk about most things Dutchman.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

too many 'secrets" that lead to nowhere.


{sorry, in a real pissie mood today}

 

[sgtfda]

The PIT MINE

A lot of secrets with that issue. It benefits many that the LDM stays lost. Even if it is now a empty hole.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe - how are you doing? Good to talk to you.

I posted the ring that Bob was wearing, specifically, to identify where that first picture that had been posted of the ore, had come from - I was not saying it was Dutchman or otherwise.

On another point, there was, until recently, a gentleman who, indeed, had several samples of a good part of the ore from the area mines, etc. His collection was used by many to determine where certain ores had come from, and by several well-know prospectors, writers and otherwise. Ore, in this manner, is usually determined on a "point" system, much like fingerprints - 1-100 "points". If you find an ore that is a 97 point match to a known ore, the chances are it is from that place. If it is decidedly different, less points - it is not from a particular known ore. For instance, there are known samples from the Vulture mine, and other ores found did NOT match the Vulture Mine - therefore, it wasn't high-graded from the Vulture Mine.

Mrs.O