CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Real of Tayopa]

I am curios, has anyone figured out to whom that large screen up on that ledge that I mentioned belongs to ? /

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[somehiker]

I am curios, has anyone figured out to whom that large screen up on that ledge that I mentioned belongs to ? /

There's no screen mentioned in the LDM list of clues, Joe. Did you mean to make this post somewhere else ?
Where and when did you mention it ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Somehiker,
It was not a clue to the lost Dutchman, but a side note on an observation on a photograph of the lost Dutchman get together site. In the picture up about the third level you can see clearly a screen for concentrating. I wondered how they got it up there and why ?i

 

[somehiker]

Members and guest lecturers often give demonstrations of gold panning at the Don's Club Camp., including during the Rendezvous. A screen would come in handy for that sort of thing.
I wasn't there at the time the classifier was put there, so can't say if it was carried up there by members, on a 4-wheeler, or built in place.
Just another mystery of the Superstition Mountains I guess.

 

[somehiker]

You could try posting your question in a more relevant thread Joe.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/590906-rendezvous-2018-a.html

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Chuck:

As I recall, the actual clue was about "maybe" needing a rope to climb down to or into a pit mine, rather than to a pool of water.
"Tanks" mentioned in the list of clues include a tank where Waltz would water his animals and a series of three tanks, each one higher than the previous one, somewhere along his route to the mine and not far from it. There may be more which I don't remember at this time.
At least some of the clues may be related to other mines, however. And don't forget Waltz also claimed to have covered the pit with layers of ironwood logs, topped by a couple of feet of rock and dirt, so that it couldn't be recognized as a mine. I think it's been pretty much proven, with more than enough documentation, that the Silver Chief "pit mine" was a surface deposit first discovered, claimed, and mined well after Waltz found and worked his LDM. That it and the other mines on the ridge were being discussed, worked and written about in newspapers and mining journals while JW was still alive and living in Phoenix IMO, is proof enough that the two mines are not even in the same area, let alone one and the same.

SH, good points as always. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods...still having to build a fire almost every night over here across the lake.

I'm not sure I have ever seen any proof that any of the deposits around Iron Mtn. were "virgin" lodes. I.E., never worked by anyone else before Rogers et. al. claimed them. Do you think it's possible that some of the deposits that later became claimed mines in the Rogers Dist. were worked by people before then? Perhaps by Mexicans, 49'ers, or even Spanish? Newspaper stories of the era seem to indicate that many of the mines in that area were found to have been previously worked...assumed to be Mexican, Spanish, or even Aztec...while I'm skeptical, it does seem to indicate that mines in that area had been worked by some unknown entities, before re-discovery by Americans in the 1870's.

I would respectfully disagree that just because the Rogers Dist was being worked, claimed, discussed etc. precludes one of those lodes from being where Waltz got his ore. By my reading, Waltz would have had about 6 years to find and exploit any lode in the Rogers Dist. before the Silver Chief discovery. If we are to believe some of the stories, Waltz did not frequent the mine very much. Perhaps he had some reason to stay away, not file a claim, to not implicate himself...also understandable if we are to believe some of the stories about people being killed around/because of the mine. He could have had some caches, as the Holmes story indicates, which might have been all he wanted at that point. My point is that I think it's perhaps a bit hasty to rule out a possible candidate for the LDM, just because it might have been found and worked during Waltz's lifetime. Doesn't matter WHERE the mine was, Waltz could have done absolutely NOTHING if someone found and claimed his mine during his lifetime. Hope that makes sense. Take care, Jim

 

[somehiker]

Hi Jim:

The two biggest flags IMO, are related to the description of the ore deposits of the mines on that ridge. It runs contrary to what makes up the very foundation of the legend of Waltz's "lost" mine as the richest gold deposit he had ever seen. That he also made no mention of silver ore with regard to the mine, and near as I can tell, still considered his mine as something that could be passed on in the days before he died, tells me that he had no concerns about the mines within the Rogers District, or any of the deposits for that matter, which were being discovered and worked at the southern end of the range prior to his passing.

 

[azdave35]

Hi Jim:

The two biggest flags IMO, are related to the description of the ore deposits of the mines on that ridge. It runs contrary to what makes up the very foundation of the legend of Waltz's "lost" mine as the richest gold deposit he had ever seen. That he also made no mention of silver ore with regard to the mine, and near as I can tell, still considered his mine as something that could be passed on in the days before he died, tells me that he had no concerns about the mines within the Rogers District, or any of the deposits for that matter, which were being discovered and worked at the southern end of the range prior to his passing.

wayne...i think you are making a big mistake by basing your research on what waltz said....nobody really knows what waltz said...

 

[somehiker]

wayne...i think you are making a big mistake by basing your research on what waltz said....nobody really knows what waltz said...

Dave:

I never base my research....or efforts in the field.... only on what he or she said about something. Regardless of who said so.
And I have found that sometimes what he or she didn't say is more important anyway.
One thought I'd like to make clear though, is that if the LDM was nothing more than a silver deposit with pockets of gold ore, as the reports of the day described the Silver Chief "pit mine", then it was undeserving of it's legendary status as a rich OR "lost" gold mine, since the "pit mine" was clearly neither of those things. And therefore, those individuals who relocated it, and spent years digging it out, really don't have much to brag about IMO. That said, I certainly won't be basing my own research into the subject on what they or their messengers have had to say about it.
To do so I believe, WOULD be, as you say..... a big mistake.

 

[azdave35]

Dave:

I never base my research....or efforts in the field.... only on what he or she said about something. Regardless of who said so.
And I have found that sometimes what he or she didn't say is more important anyway.
One thought I'd like to make clear though, is that if the LDM was nothing more than a silver deposit with pockets of gold ore, as the reports of the day described the Silver Chief "pit mine", then it was undeserving of it's legendary status as a rich OR "lost" gold mine, since the "pit mine" was clearly neither of those things. And therefore, those individuals who relocated it, and spent years digging it out, really don't have much to brag about IMO. That said, I certainly won't be basing my own research into the subject on what they or their messengers have had to say about it.
To do so I believe, WOULD be, as you say..... a big mistake.

another problem i see is "the reports of the day"..nobody really knows what came out of that or any other mine..you'd know this if you had ever been to the blm office and checked out the folder on a mine...everything in that report was written by the mine owner...who is to say if he was honest...there are plenty of reasons to put false info in a report

 

[somehiker]

another problem i see is "the reports of the day"..nobody really knows what came out of that or any other mine..you'd know this if you had ever been to the blm office and checked out the folder on a mine...everything in that report was written by the mine owner...who is to say if he was honest...there are plenty of reasons to put false info in a report

Although by "reports of the day" I also include newspapers etc., I understand what you are saying.
Would that include the tales of Ted Cox and those who belonged to the group who re-opened the mine and, along with a couple of authors we know, have more recently tried to convince others that it was the LDM ?
I would think it does.

 

[azdave35]

Although by "reports of the day" I also include newspapers etc., I understand what you are saying.
Would that include the tales of Ted Cox and those who belonged to the group who re-opened the mine and, along with a couple of authors we know, have more recently tried to convince others that it was the LDM ?
I would think it does.

all i'm saying is most mines past and present are operated to draw in investors..a few are legit but most weren't and aren't.. geological reports and assays are faked to sucker in high dollar money men...if you are going to hunt lost mines you should educate yourself on mining...save time and disappointment in the field...as far as ted cox goes...i never met the man so i can't vouch for him..but i tend to believe what he wrote.i wont go into it here why i do..if you choose not to that's your prerogative

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Jim:

The two biggest flags IMO, are related to the description of the ore deposits of the mines on that ridge. It runs contrary to what makes up the very foundation of the legend of Waltz's "lost" mine as the richest gold deposit he had ever seen. That he also made no mention of silver ore with regard to the mine, and near as I can tell, still considered his mine as something that could be passed on in the days before he died, tells me that he had no concerns about the mines within the Rogers District, or any of the deposits for that matter, which were being discovered and worked at the southern end of the range prior to his passing.

SH,
Makes sense...thanks for responding as I'm sure you guys are sick and tired of going over the same old ground...I'm not a treasure hunter so my approach is probably a lot different, I'm agnostic in my approach...to me, the only things that have corroborated the LDM story are 1)Julia paid off her debts in the same timeframe she says Waltz gave her gold 2)Julia searched the Supes for a mine or cache 3) Holmes said he had gold from Waltz, and Brownie searched the Supes.

Everything else, to me at least, is speculation, falsehoods, noise, disinformation, etc...it all falls into categories of things that can't be backed up or proven...so I have no particular problem with a small surface deposit, large values of silver, the fact the mine had been found and worked...to me these are all quite possible as outcomes for the LDM, as I have no reason to believe the stories about the mine's richness, where it was in relation to Weave's Needle, etc. I'm not trying to get anyone to sign on or agree, just explaining my thoughts on it. Take care, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

all i'm saying is most mines past and present are operated to draw in investors..a few are legit but most weren't and aren't.. geological reports and assays are faked to sucker in high dollar money men...if you are going to hunt lost mines you should educate yourself on mining...save time and disappointment in the field...as far as ted cox goes...i never met the man so i can't vouch for him..but i tend to believe what he wrote.i wont go into it here why i do..if you choose not to that's your prerogative

Dave,

I've done a little researching on Ted Cox's stories...not all of them, but quite a few...I picked out random things that would be easy to verify, or disprove...while Cox seemed ready to embellish, every single thing I researched turned out to be true, or based on truth...there were even some things I thought were patently untrue on the surface, but after digging into it, I guess I learned a thing or two

Cox also had an understanding of what was happening with the Pit Mine in the early 1900's, and why everyone was so "close-lipped" about it...he didn't come out and say it, but anyone from around there will pick up on what he was saying and what it meant...take care, Jim

 

[deducer]

wayne...i think you are making a big mistake by basing your research on what waltz said....nobody really knows what waltz said...

That the Holmes and Petrasch camps became bitter enemies is, IMO, a boon to LDM researchers because you knew neither would never conspire with the other to mislead or deceive, so anything both camps agreed upon had to be the truth. Neither camp made mention of silver, but both camps agreed on the "legendary richness of the gold."

I think that you accomplish a lot more as a researcher when you understand and accept that deception is the norm, rather than the exception. Once you accept that, you start to develop a methodology for eliminating misdirection, deception, and outright lies.

Don't underestimate the value of field research. It can be very potent.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I've done a little researching on Ted Cox's stories...not all of them, but quite a few...I picked out random things that would be easy to verify, or disprove...while Cox seemed ready to embellish, every single thing I researched turned out to be true, or based on truth...there were even some things I thought were patently untrue on the surface, but after digging into it, I guess I learned a thing or two

Cox also had an understanding of what was happening with the Pit Mine in the early 1900's, and why everyone was so "close-lipped" about it...he didn't come out and say it, but anyone from around there will pick up on what he was saying and what it meant...take care, Jim

jim....i'd say cox was like alot of people..most of what he said was true with a little embellishment to spice it up

 

[azdave35]

That the Holmes and Petrasch camps became bitter enemies is, IMO, a boon to LDM researchers because you knew neither would never conspire with the other to mislead or deceive, so anything both camps agreed upon had to be the truth. Neither camp made mention of silver, but both camps agreed on the "legendary richness of the gold."

I think that you accomplish a lot more as a researcher when you understand and accept that deception is the norm, rather than the exception. Once you accept that, you start to develop a methodology for eliminating misdirection, deception, and outright lies.

Don't underestimate the value of field research. It can be very potent.

deducer...i'd say the reason nobody mentioned silver is because is wasn't worth squat back then....the same is true now as back then...the small miner isn't concerned with silver because it isn't profitable for him to mine...gold..on the other hand is...this goes back to what i said before...if you are going to hunt lost mines...you should have a good background in mining

 

[markmar]

The right clues are these which were followed by the first LDM researchers.
Their fail was just a matter of luck. The impression which many have how if they didn't find it is not there, is a mistaken one.

 

[deducer]

deducer...i'd say the reason nobody mentioned silver is because is wasn't worth squat back then....the same is true now as back then...the small miner isn't concerned with silver because it isn't profitable for him to mine...gold..on the other hand is...this goes back to what i said before...if you are going to hunt lost mines...you should have a good background in mining

Some things to think about:

1) the ore comparison done at UA with the ore procured from the Holmes acquisition, matches no known samples in Arizona. It has been raised many times that bragging rights can easily be settled by releasing sample ore from the Pit Mine for comparison. So far, nothing.

2) Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn both swore affidavits stating that they had seen the assay report done by the Goldman's store on the Holmes ore. Neither of them, as far as I'm aware, ever mentioned any trace of silver.

Another important thing to note is that of the few individuals that had accidentally run across Waltz's mine, (Two Soldiers, etc) none were miners or prospectors, save for Deering, and even then, he was not prospecting at the time he ran across Waltz's mine, but was chasing his burro, found a well-worn trail, and then traveled "four or five miles."

Considering the proximity of the location of the Pit Mine to claims on file during Waltz's time, isn't it a bit inconceivable that no miners ever came across it?

 

[azdave35]

"matches no known samples in Arizona"
actually that statement is quite ludicrous ...they did not test against the few million possibilities of arizona ore...more than likely they compared it to a few

"Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn both swore affidavits stating that they had seen the assay report done by the Goldman's store on the Holmes ore. Neither of them, as far as I'm aware, ever mentioned any trace of silver. "

you have probably never had an assay done but you can request gold only..it cost more to do gold and silver...highly doubtful they would spend extra dough on silver assay

"Considering the proximity of the location of the Pit Mine to claims on file during Waltz's time, isn't it a bit inconceivable that no miners ever came across it?"
maybe the mine was covered back then and couldn't be seen readily​