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Thread: CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

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  1. #31
    donald peterson

    Jan 2013
    somewhere between flagstaff, preskit
    Whites prism III
    4,541
    1972 times
    Relic Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner View Post
    When I call you let me know whats up with those marks in the rock you posted.
    You could go with chuck and me to Iron mountain.Plus I got to tell you the story of the guy with the ore that the mine super made the guy throw out of his truck.
    Maybe we can find the old trail,2 track,road up to the Reavis Ranch,towards iron Mountain.

    I was going to suggest some indians in there but we should deal with facts only.
    story huh?
    well, don't forget to tell your compatriots that the ore dumped on the ground belongs to magma copper company.

  2. #32
    no
    Mar 2010
    Republic of Texas
    545
    1194 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    ...
    That said, I would give this advice - think about the geology first; gold normally occurs in a quartz vein and that is what we are after for that is what Waltz had. These veins are formed by the actions of extremely heated waters, coming up from volcanic activity - not like lava, but like a water SO heavy with dissolved minerals that the instant it got under lower pressure and cooled, the minerals crystallized out and formed these veins in the cracks of rock that were already there.
    etc etc etc
    Oroblanco
    Oro - I think those are the best directions I have ever seen!! (I don't mean just the li'l excerpt, but your whole post).

    And hey - you wouldn't even tell ME where you think it is? Shame on you!! (just kiddin' of course - if anyone ever found it, I'd be the first in the queue of congratulants!!)

  3. #33

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,748
    5291 times
    Guys,

    Personally, I would MD the ravines coming down into Pinto Creek, paying particular attention to any natural gold traps. Kind of a modern-day high-banking.

    Good luck,

    Joe

  4. #34

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    2,283
    3650 times
    I could be mistaken but Pinto Creek is under claim?

  5. #35

  6. #36
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippinwhitepaws View Post
    story huh?
    well, don't forget to tell your compatriots that the ore dumped on the ground belongs to magma copper company.
    I am not calling your account a story as in made up.
    I dont have your permission to tell your facts either.Or your story. What ever you want to call it.Incident then?
    If I have any ore in my possession at my house I bought it at Quartzsite at the rock and gem show.
    I bet it was picked up anyway.

    I have also driven from the Perlite plant to Queen Valley and found no road to turn up to Reevis ranch,.which is now I believe,Reevis Mountain School.The only way to get there is from route 88, and Ranch Road,or JB Ranch Road.
    I am not saying you did not do it at one time.I just cant find a way by a 2 wheel drive truck.
    And some of the Ranch Road is through washes.

  7. #37
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtfda View Post
    I could be mistaken but Pinto Creek is under claim?
    I just checked on my Gold maps cd and it show 2 abandoned claims to the sw,but nothing in the Pinto Creek area.Unless it is mine property which is not listed under claims.

  8. #38
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    Those are all around the area past top of the world,towards Miami.
    I am talking about the Pinto Creek to the SE of Iron mountain.The link you posted is for Gila county,the Pinto Creek in Gila.
    I am talking about the Pinto here in Pinal,by Superior.

    Here we go again,which part of Pinto creek was Waltz in?
    Pinal County,or Gila county. And quess what,Devils canyon,and top of the world are no easy climbing back in the days either.
    Even on mule,or horse. And,before 60 was put in,and a tunnel through the mountain,people in Globe had to use the Apache trail to get to phoenix. A very long drive.
    So if Waltz was in Gila county Pinto Creek,He could have gone by way of the Trail(88),or,come through the pinal mouintains,and down Stonemans grade towards the silver King,and Pinal.
    The area I just posted about is in Pinal county from US Gold Maps.SE of Iron Mountain.

    Pippin,I dont remember if you told me the incident in a PM,or you posted it on this forum.Which was it.
    If a PM. I was not going to divulge all kinds of info about your incident. Did it happen to you,or some one else,I honestly don't remember.

  9. #39
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Guys,

    Personally, I would MD the ravines coming down into Pinto Creek, paying particular attention to any natural gold traps. Kind of a modern-day high-banking.

    Good luck,

    Joe
    Which Pinto Creek do you believe. The one here by Iron Mountain,or the part under Pinto Creek bridge,Past top of the world,on the other side of the Pinals from superior after you go through the tunnel,and past top of the world,and down the mountains toward Miami.
    Pinal county,or Gila County?
    Which or where was Waltz?
    I am assuming by Iron Mountain since that is the map I have of that says where Waltz carpenter searched.

  10. #40

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    2,283
    3650 times
    I was referring to the bridge area

  11. #41
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    On the Watlz carpenter map,it shows the Pinto Creek by Iron Mountain.
    Do you really think Waltz could have been that far into the Pinals?
    Was the Pinals part of the Supes back then.I will look at some topos.
    No wonder no one found the mine if it is that far off.
    I go over that bridge twice a month,that is a steep icline no matter where I look.
    As your heading to Miami,and on the last right hand turn before the bridge,a person can see the pull off to their left. A person comitted suicide by driving off that area some years ago.
    Last edited by roadrunner; Sep 19, 2013 at 09:11 PM.

  12. #42
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Roadrunner wrote
    And like I said,most of it is fiction I believe. There have been 2 posts that I read that could give a set of directions from the board house in 3 sentences.
    Why did not waltz just say that. Unless he did and no one heard him right.
    The fact that we have two basic versions, which are both complicated with several "clues", and the third version which gives very little information, hints that it is not easy to find the mine at all. There are many canyons that run the right general way (as with the clue, "north trending canyon") and they do all tend to look rather alike. I think Waltz did try to tell them how to get to the mine, but they simply did not understand what he was trying to get across to them.

    Loke wrote
    Oro - I think those are the best directions I have ever seen!! (I don't mean just the li'l excerpt, but your whole post).

    And hey - you wouldn't even tell ME where you think it is? Shame on you!! (just kiddin' of course - if anyone ever found it, I'd be the first in the queue of congratulants!!)
    Thank you for the very kind words, hope it came out the way it was intended. Too often a lot of us treasure hunters get SO caught up in trying to work out the various clues, maps (stone or otherwise) and forget that the mine had to be discovered in the first place. Even if Waltz did not discover the mine (as the popular version has it) then the Peraltas had to discover it, or if they found it due to Apaches working it, then the Apaches had to discover it any way you slice it, the mine was not always a mine, someone had to discover it the old fashioned way, by tracing the float, or tracing panned out specks of gold back to the vein. The story I believe is the true one, is the story we get from the Pioneer interviews, which has no Peraltas, no massacre, no huge funnel shaped pit etc but does have Waltz getting a drywasher to use, which he then uses to trace back to the vein and thus finds his mine. This same approach should work today. The need for the drywasher was not so much for actual gold mining (remember it is a lode mine after all, not a placer) but to get enough concentrates to be able to get a color or two, which I take to indicate that the mine is not in a place where you can pan a lot of gold easily. Hence that clue about "No miner will find my mine" which also suggests that the place does not look right for a vein of gold. It could mean that it is a vein in a lot of solid volcanic rock, well known to be poor for finding gold, or in a sedimentary type of rock, also known to be very poor places to hunt for gold but as that saying goes, gold is where you find it, and a vein can be found intruding into the worst kind of rock, where it "shouldn't" be. Sorry for getting carried away on it, hope that others do not let the confusion and far too many clues and maps to let that discourage them, when the mine cannot hide the "trail" of quartz float that may be hundreds of yards or even miles down from the vein, nor can it conceal the tiny specks of gold that likewise will travel over the years.

    For our readers - just keep that in mind, that all mines had to be discovered, and the person who found it in the first place had no clues or maps to lead to it, and in almost all cases they used regular, old-fashioned prospecting methods to find the mine. So no matter how confusing or how many lies or false maps there are about the Lost Dutchman mine, you could throw them all out and hunt for the mine the same way it was found and stand a good chance of finding it.

    Also, just because I have not told you that location pard Loke, does not mean that I won't tell you! Obviously I do not know where the mine is, only know some places where it is not. If you are curious about where I do think it is, I will tell you when we meet next month, for our little joint venture. I will tell you this, the spot I suspect is not within the popularly-believed area at all.

    I think that the idea Cactusjumper was suggesting was not to hunt right ON Pinto Creek, but on the side canyons, and there are many of them. The lower end of Pinto creek has some patented (private) land, just upstream from the bridge, and there are (or were last winter) several active claims on the Forest Service land as well, right on the creek. However it is pretty much a certainty that Waltz's mine is not right on the creek, it is on a side canyon, that is what the old timers told the interviewers in the Pinto Creek version and most of the side canyons are not under active claims. Some are within the Wilderness Area and could not be claimed anyway. If the mine were right on Pinto creek, which got a lot of attention from propectors and still does, it seems more than likely that the mine would have been found long ago and would not be lost today.

    Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

    Oroblanco
    Last edited by Oroblanco; Sep 19, 2013 at 09:37 PM. Reason: wanted to highlight a clue
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
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  13. #43
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner View Post
    On the Watlz carpenter map,it shows the Pinto Creek by Iron Mountain.
    Do you really think Waltz could have been that far into the Pinals?
    Was the Pinals part of the Supes back then.I will look at some topos.
    No wonder no one found the mine if it is that far off.
    I go over that bridge twice a month,that is a steep icline no matter where I look.
    As your heading to Miami,and on the last right hand turn before the bridge,a person can see the pull off to their left. A person comitted suicide by driving off that area some years ago.
    If you look at some of the old maps, which date to Waltz's time, pretty much the entire region was called the Superstition mountains, including the Pinals and Mazatzals, also called the Salt River mountains, and older maps call them Montana del Espuma (mountains of foam). Waltz had a mule to travel, was not hiking in and out, and could cover quite a lot of ground in a day. In the story from Weiser as told to Dr Walker, it was over a day's travel by mule to get to Adams Mill (near Florence) which could easily have meant 35 miles, based on actual records of cavalry travel in that time period using pack mules to carry supplies or even more than that. A lot of us today forget that Waltz was not walking, he was riding, and you can cover more ground that way than we can hiking on foot.

    Good luck and good hunting Roadrunner, I hope you find the Lost Dutchman Mine!
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

  14. #44
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
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    Oroblanco, I am confused gain as usual.
    In your statement below,you said these 2 things.

    QUOTE::I think that the idea Cactusjumper was suggesting was not to hunt right ON Pinto Creek, but on the side canyons, and there are many of them. The lower end of Pinto creek has some patented (private) land, just upstream from the bridge, and there are (or were last winter) several active claims on the Forest Service land as well, right on the creek. However it is pretty much a certainty that Waltz's mine is not right on the creek, it is on a side canyon, that is what the old timers told the interviewers in the Pinto Creek version and most of the side canyons are not under active claims. Some are within the Wilderness Area and could not be claimed anyway. If the mine were right on Pinto creek, which got a lot of attention from propectors and still does, it seems more than likely that the mine would have been found long ago and would not be lost today.UNQUOTE.

    The Pinto Creek by the bridge is not where Waltz carpenter searched.
    And,the Pinto Creek by Iron Mountain,is not in the wilderness area I think,I will have to look. It is under NFS though.
    I am waiting for Joes response.

    I will check the area around the bridge for a way down,and what claims are around.
    There was that mine right at top of the world on the left side,not far off the road also.
    I have hiked around the part on the right side of the road where the turn off is.Road side rest area thingy.
    There is a paved road that goes way back in there also. Have hiked around Oak Flats and the cave there.

    Just looked at Us Gold maps and there are no claims around the PV bridge. There is a spot on the south side that looks like a way down.On the east side of the bridge.
    Last edited by roadrunner; Sep 19, 2013 at 10:03 PM.

  15. #45
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
    Tesoro Lobo Supertraq, (95%) Garrett Scorpion (5%)
    7,313
    7876 times
    Roadrunner wrote
    The Pinto Creek by the bridge is not where Waltz carpenter searched.
    And,the Pinto Creek by Iron Mountain,is not in the wilderness area I think,I will have to look. It is under NFS though.
    I am waiting for Joes response.

    I will check the area around the bridge for a way down,and what claims are around.
    There was that mine right at top of the world on the left side,not far off the road also.
    I have hiked around the part on the right side of the road where the turn off is.Road side rest area thingy.
    There is a paved road that goes way back in there also. Have hiked around Oak Flats and the cave there.

    Just looked at Us Gold maps and there are no claims around the PV bridge. There is a spot on the south side that looks like a way down.On the east side of the bridge.
    The best place to find out if there are active mining claims is at the BLM office in Phoenix. They are the official place where the federal mining claims are kept. They are also supposed to be recorded in the county courthouse, but fairly often this is not true, when they forget to file the claim at the county but do file it with the BLM. The BLM handles all mining claims on all Federal lands. Here is the BLM address and phone number

    21605 N. 7th Avenue
    Phoenix, AZ 85027-2929
    Phone: (623) 580-5500
    Fax: (623) 580-5580
    E-mail: PFOWEB_AZ@blm.gov
    District Manager: Mary D'Aversa

    You will have to go in to the office to check on where the active mining claims are, and will need to know the legal bounds, that is Section, Township and Range, as that is how mining claims are filed.

    A good US Forest Service map of the area will show the private lands as white areas, national forest lands as green, BLM as yellow-orange etc. They are a big help, but do not show unpatented mining claims so you would want to check at the BLM office for them. There is a Forest Service office in Globe which sells the USFS maps. The Forest Service maps also show you the boundaries for the Sections, Township and Range which is helpful for checking on the mining claims at the BLM.

    The story about Waltz having his mine on Pinto creek, does not say it is on the creek but on a side canyon, which there are many of them, including some within the wilderness area. You can drive up Pinto creek quite a ways, which will save a lot of hiking but still this only gets you close to those side canyons. The area shown on the Waltz "carpenter" map as where the carpenter searched, does not mean that the carpenter was in the right area, just that he thought it was. Other maps from the time period do not show that area as Pinto creek, so it is possible he had it wrong. However in that same area is the mining district known as the Randall or Rogers district, where several dozen silver mines were found in the 1870s, and is the same area where the "Pit mine" is located so could be promising.

    After all, if you find a rich gold mine (or a rich silver mine for that matter) will it really matter what the name of it is?

    Good luck and good hunting amigo, sorry if I confused you, hope this helps.
    Oroblanco
    SUPPORT THE BEEF INDUSTRY - EAT BEEF
    "We must find a way, or we will make one."--Hannibal Barca

 

 
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