CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[393stroker]

Here`s a link to some of the clues to Jake`s mine. Feel free to add some more if you can. :: Ghost Towns and Legends of Lost Treasure :: Care2 Groups

 

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[Somero]

Nice link, Thanks 393.

I often wonder if some of the Northward or Southward directions are right

 

[393stroker]

The German clues

DesertUSA.com/mb3 ? View topic - THE "GERMAN" CLUES

 

[austin]

Oh boy, clues to something that doesn't exist...

 

[Oroblanco]

Oh boy, clues to something that doesn't exist...

How can you be certain that it does not exist? There was a real person named Jacob Waltz, he died in the shop of his friend Julia Thomas, she and her adopted son attempted to find the mine based no Waltz's directions, Dick Holmes, whom was in the room when Waltz died, also got a set of directions and spent many years in the search. Waltz sold a large amount of raw gold to help Julia save her business, and was seen selling gold by a number of other witnesses over the years. None of the people who knew Waltz doubted that he had a rich gold mine, hidden somewhere in the Superstition mountains. Even the carpenter who built his drywasher for him, later went searching for the mine. Several pieces of jewelry and a beautiful match box made from the ore found under Jacob Waltz's deathbed in a candle box still exist, and this ore does not match any kniown source. It is easy to say "it never existed" when no one has found it, but that does not mean it does not exist. Look how long people said that the fabled city of Ubar never existed, the "city so evil that the desert swallowed it up" - until found by the assistance of satellite imagery.

If you have a problem with lost mines in general, keep in mind that a good number of lost mines have been found and are not even discussed today, for they are no longer lost. The once famous lost Mojave gold mine, located west of Quartzsite AZ, was at one time one of the most famous lost mines in AZ; today you can walk in to look it over. The lost Breyfogle mine, also one of the most famous lost mines of all, was found and is today known as the Amargosa mine in CA. Just because no one has found the lost Dutchman mine, does not prove that it never existed. Waltz's gold came from a mine, and perhaps some day, someone will be lucky enough to find it.

Good luck and good hunting Austin, I hope you will open your mind to the possibilities of what may be found; do some research into the Lost Dutchman and be prepared to be surprised that it is indeed factual, and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[coffee]

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Very good post, except for this........"Jacob Waltz, he died in the shop of his friend Julia Thomas". Waltz died in Julia's home.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

PS here is a poor photo of the famous matchbox, if I can upload it right!
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Very good post, except for this........"Jacob Waltz, he died in the shop of his friend Julia Thomas". Waltz died in Julia's home.

Take care,

Joe

I thought that Waltz passed away in the back room of Julia's bakery?

 

[sgtfda]

There's a few spots in the Florence area of the Superstitions where you can find good gold with a drywasher. There is a reason he wanted one. However it's not a big size gold method. Can lead to bigger stuff. If your lucky.

 

[hooch]

Oh boy, clues to something that doesn't exist...

No ****, every time somebody comes up with new Jacob Waltz clues, I like to look at the pictures of the yearly Dutchhunters meetings and all the old men that thought at one time they new the where the fabled lost mine was, but alas I never see any gold in the pictures just old gray haired men with motorhomes lol.

 

[Somero]

It's all good, the fun is in looking the pleasure will be in finding.

All I can do is read what information others have provided over the years, then throw in my own brand of what makes sense, go out and look. So far I have found markers that others may know about and have not mentioned or they have not been discovered by anyone else. Also some areas with quartz veins with pyrite and other minerals.

I have also seen some of the most amazing desert scenery in the world, and watched as the monsoon's roll in with thunder and lightning, drop buckets of rain to fill the washes and turn the desert into a multicolored garden brimming with life. So even if I don't find gold or silver, I still take the time to look around and admire the scenery with awe, and when I sit around with grey hair I can share those memories with others.

 

[cactusjumper]

No ****, every time somebody comes up with new Jacob Waltz clues, I like to look at the pictures of the yearly Dutchhunters meetings and all the old men that thought at one time they new the where the fabled lost mine was, but alas I never see any gold in the pictures just old gray haired men with motorhomes lol.

Hooch,

This is gold ore that Kraig Roberts was showing. Believe he claimed it came from the Superstitions:



Greg said he panned out a little gold from this hole:



This is Kochera ore, and is said to contain some gold. believe you can see it if you blow up the picture:



The ore in this ring was claimed to be LDM, from the Superstitions:



There are other pictures, but not for publication.........

Gray-haired Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus, you forgot to mention that appears to be the remains of an old
Arrastre, and a fairly small one at that. K 'Oro de Tayopa' what is your opinon on it ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactus, you forgot to mention that appears to be the remains of an old
Arrastre, and a fairly small one at that. K 'Oro de Tayopa' what is your opinon on it ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I have posted that picture a number of times in the past, and always referred to it as an arrastre. It could also be a hole for a center pole of a shelter. Greg said they dug some dirt out of the bottom, and he panned the gold out of it. Believe I have a picture of the results......somewhere.

Take care,

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

How did Julia,and Petrasch know german? And if they didnt,they wrote all that down,not knowing german,as he spoke it.
Pretty good writing for not knowing german.
Waltz must have been off his rocker.
Why would someone who lived in Phoenix,by the salt,go north to the verde,then to the salt,then south to where he was going to.
Why not go east,and then north a few miles.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactus, you forgot to mention that appears to be the remains of an old
Arrastre, and a fairly small one at that. K 'Oro de Tayopa' what is your opinon on it ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Looks like an old arrastre to me. Usually they got torn apart when the miners who built them were done with them, in order to get any gold that got into the cracks, so it is unusual to find them so intact. I know that you and several others are well aware of this, just saying it for the benefit of any newbies and other readers whom are reading our words.

Roadrunner wrote

How did Julia,and Petrasch know german? And if they didnt,they wrote all that down,not knowing german,as he spoke it.
Pretty good writing for not knowing german.
Waltz must have been off his rocker.
Why would someone who lived in Phoenix,by the salt,go north to the verde,then to the salt,then south to where he was going to.
Why not go east,and then north a few miles.

I will try to answer some of your questions;

How did Julia,and Petrasch know german? - Reinhard Petrasch was born to German parents, there are sevearl versions of how Julia came to know it, one being that one of her parents was Deutsch. They did not write down much info, as far as I know, what we have passed down to us comes from other treasure hunters whom contacted Julia and Reiney and questioned them, as in Sims Ely and Jim Bark, Pierpont Bicknell, Barry Storm, John D. Mitchell among others. These are the folks who wrote it down in English, though from what others who knew Waltz said, it appears that Jacob Waltz also spoke English pretty well. Julia Thomas did make a number of maps to the mine which she sold in later years, as she was rather hard up for cash.

Waltz must have been off his rocker. Waltz was very likely suffering from a fevered mind in his death bed, but I see nothing to indicate that he was "off his rocker" at any time prior to this.

Why would someone who lived in Phoenix,by the salt,go north to the verde,then to the salt,then south to where he was going to.
Why not go east,and then north a few miles.

This last set of questions is the easiest of all. Firstly, Waltz did not live in Phoenix prior to 1868, he was active in the Bradshaws near Prescott; if he were to take the straightest, shortest route in to his mine and out, it would have been very very easy for the many claim jumpers and dry gulchers active in the area to simply follow him to the mine, claim it for themselves, murder him etc. He had to take a circuitous, and deceptive route each time, and many of those who followed him stated that he rarely went the same route twice. There are people today whom would follow YOU to the mine, if you knew where it was located, so that they could claim it first or even murder you for the possession of it. So that part remains not much different from the time of Waltz, other than we don't have war parties of Apaches or Navajos haunting the mountains waiting for passersby to pounce on. Remember, the Apaches were still hostile until 1885, and Waltz had pretty well quit visiting his mine by that time. When he went out to the mine, he had multiple dangers to deal with, from both the "whites" and the "reds". Anyway Waltz did go the very route you suggest at some times, as he did not go only one way in and out. I hope this has been of some help to you amigo.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks oroblanco.
I just meant off his rocker with fever,you are right.So actually no directions could have been right.
Forgot Petrasch was German.
Never seen a black German.
Did not know about the Bradshaws,( I knew ,but thought he was in Phoenix).
Well to me that means the gold came from the Bradshaws.No wonder nothings been found in the supes. He was looking in the supes, may have had a cache in the supes,but no goldmine.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roadrunner - would that not have been a most cruel thing for Waltz to do then, to tell his friends Julia and Reiney, and Dick Holmes (if he was a friend) that he had a mine in the Superstitions, and try to tell them how to get to it?

Waltz discovered and helped discover several rich gold mines in the Prescott area, which he sold out his interests in before filing for the homestead in Phoenix (1868). It is possible that his gold came from there rather than the Superstitions, but why tell his friends it was in the Superstitions? To get them killed, or lose their money searching for it? Also, several old-timers from Florence recalled Waltz coming there to get supplies as well as to get a small portable drywasher built; according to them, it was "no big secret" at the time that Waltz had a rich gold mine in the Superstitions. Also, the ore from Waltz's claims in the Bradshaws is different from the ore found in the candlebox under his deathbed. This point will ruff some feathers but I stand by it.

Besides, there is quite another Lost Dutchman gold mine in the Bradshaws which predates the Waltz story; a German named Youngman in fact. He was from Missouri (of German extraction) and that is quite another story.

As to black Germans, Julia Thomas was what they called a "mulatto" - half black, half white, and was an American not a German. So her white parent could have been the German one. It is not at all unusual for children to learn a foreign language of their parents in America, even while they are learning English that is used outside the home. There is such a thing as black Germans due to the former German colonies in Africa, from which some people emigrated to Germany and elsewhere, speaking German. Some of the best German soldiers of WW I were their black Askaris of Tanganyika, as a side note. I am sure that others have more research on Julia and could provide further details.

Just my own opinion but the clues to Waltz's mine have gotten mixed in with clues from more than one other lost mine, which are not the same mine. The story of the Ludy brothers for instance, contributes the tale of the Peraltas, the funnel-shaped pit and other parts, the Two Soldiers mine likewise. I don't say this to discourage anyone, rather the evidence would tend to show that there is not just one lost gold mine in the Superstitions (and I include a larger area than just the boundaries of the wilderness area) but that there are in reality several. The Ludy brothers mine, aka Peraltas, the mine found by Joe Deering which was not covered and had hunks of ore laying around the entrance being another, for examples. It is possible that these mines are on the same vein, that the vein is exposed in more than one place so to speak but anyway just my own opinion. Sims Ely and Jim Bark realized this (the mixing of clues) too late in the game, or they might have found it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[roadrunner]

QUOTE:Roadrunner - would that not have been a most cruel thing for Waltz to do then, to tell his friends Julia and Reiney, and Dick Holmes (if he was a friend) that he had a mine in the Superstitions, and try to tell them how to get to it?UNQUOTE.

No,he was with a fever,and did not realize he was talking about the wrong mountain range.
Ans as for the ore,.I have asked,and there is no ore to be compared to,or no matrix or description of the materials in the ore. Except for maybe 1 or 2 people that possibly have a specimen,but those are the people writing books,or friends of people writing books. So there is nothing to compare to.
If ASU did a test one time,where are the results of the matrix of the ore?
I did not know Julia had a German parent or was(mixed).

So basically,the only 2-3 people,who Waltz gave directions to the mine, did not find it,or found it,and did not report it and lived happily ever after.
So,in other words,it is lost until some one falls into a shallow depression,or hole.
Or a natural disaster opens it up.
I think I am about done with this.
It is an interesting tale though.
Thanks for your time and explanations though.
It has helped a lot.

 

[Oroblanco]

QUOTE:Roadrunner - would that not have been a most cruel thing for Waltz to do then, to tell his friends Julia and Reiney, and Dick Holmes (if he was a friend) that he had a mine in the Superstitions, and try to tell them how to get to it?UNQUOTE.

No,he was with a fever,and did not realize he was talking about the wrong mountain range.
Ans as for the ore,.I have asked,and there is no ore to be compared to,or no matrix or description of the materials in the ore. Except for maybe 1 or 2 people that possibly have a specimen,but those are the people writing books,or friends of people writing books. So there is nothing to compare to.
If ASU did a test one time,where are the results of the matrix of the ore?
I did not know Julia had a German parent or was(mixed).

So basically,the only 2-3 people,who Waltz gave directions to the mine, did not find it,or found it,and did not report it and lived happily ever after.
So,in other words,it is lost until some one falls into a shallow depression,or hole.
Or a natural disaster opens it up.
I think I am about done with this.
It is an interesting tale though.
Thanks for your time and explanations though.
It has helped a lot.

Hola amigos,
Roadrunner I get the impression that you have not researched this too much, seems that you have only some parts of the story? I think if you did some more research on it, you would not feel quite so negative about the prospects.

First consider this - most of those whom have hunted this lost mine, have zero experience at prospecting and have been counting on the various "clues" or treasure maps to lead them to the mine, which a lot seem to expect to be a big open hole they can not miss. Even today, a lot of fellows can't tell a mine from a cave, and often mistake an empty prospect hole for the lost mine. Remember too that Waltz went to some effort to conceal the entrance to his mine, and covered up the spot where the vein is exposed further down the canyon. The entrance was "no bigger than a barrel" according to one who saw it, so this is not exactly a large thing to look for. Waltz put in desert ironwood logs, six feet in by one source, and then filled in the hole from there with rocks and dirt, so it is quite possible that a 100 year old cactus could be growing right on top of it today for that type of wood is remarkably resistant to rot. Anyway point is that a LOT of people have already walked right past it, almost certainly. It will not be easy to see, barring some earthquake (and Arizona does get a fair number of quakes) or perhaps a heavy rainfall will result in a landslide, uncovering either the mine or the vein below it.

Next - Waltz gave a set of directions to Dick Holmes the very night he was feverish and dying, and this version we see in the Holmes manuscript. To Julia and Reiney however, he gave the instructions over a much longer period of time, weeks or months, and they simply did not pay much attention when he was trying to tell them how to get to the mine. Even Waltz himself told Reinhard once, "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" This statement indicates to me that the mine is not near any remarkable landmarks and is quite difficult to find, perhaps even so for Waltz himself. Anyway Waltz was certainly in sound mind prior to the last days of his life, and had been trying to tell his friends Julia and Reiney the correct directions, then later (according to Dick Holmes) tried to tell Holmes how to get there but was of course feverish, and dying, so those directions you find in the Holmes manuscript could be confused due to Waltz being feverish.

Julia Thomas was not really the type of person whom could go out in the desert to hunt for a lost mine; her first night spent in the desert, she climbed on top of a big rock and fired her gun at "rattlers" all around it, which was simply the rustling leaves. Reiney was not much better and enlisted the aid of his (real) father and brother, and they made another attempt, but to the disgust of Reiney's relatives, Reiney had a very muddled memory of what the directions were. They broke up but spent years hunting separately. If only Reiney had paid better attention, this lost mine might not even be known today as a lost mine.

Most of the folks whom have hunted for the Lost Dutchman since 1891, were laboring under one or more false ideas, like the funnel shaped pit for example, which was from the Ludy brothers story and not Waltz but got mixed in to the story. So these treasure hunters could have (and probably did) walk right past the actual mine while looking for that funnel shaped pit. I am fairly convinced that one did find it, Walt Gassler, but he died before being able to show anyone else the location. Inside his backpack was an ore sample that matched the Dutchman specimens, of which several still exist and as you surmise, are held by private parties but could possibly arrange a comparison by request. Dick Holmes had an assay done on Waltz's ore, and it came out very high in gold, and rather low in silver by comparison.

It takes a lot of research for any serious and successful treasure hunt, whether it is hunting the sunken ship Atocha like Mel Fisher did, or the Lost Dutchman gold mine. Just because many have failed is no proof that the mine is not still out there, waiting for someone with a bit of luck and hard work to find it. A great deal of 'chaff' has been thrown into this legend too, which makes the job that much harder. I hope that you won't give up on finding the Lost Dutchman without at least giving it a try.

Good luck and good hunting Roadrunner, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco