The Lost Doc Thorne Mine - was it the same mine of Jacob Waltz?

[Somero]

Somero

You wrote : " Waltz story is a mine or cache on a mountain and Doc's is a cache at the bottom of a canyon. "

You are correct , my friend . But why in separate canyons ? The most LDM clues say how the mine is in a north - south trending canyon and how this canyon is a tributary canyon . In the picture below you can see :
- how the canyon trending north to south .
- how the canyon is tributary .
- how the uncovered vein of gold is at the bottom of the canyon.
- the carved horse head .
In this tributary canyon and above the exposed golden vein , just choose the side where you believe how the rays of the setting sun could glitter upon the mine .

View attachment 900871

Like I stated before, you could make a case both are one and the same. However if you try to make this distinction you cannot mix clues together, they must be approached separately. If they are the same the evidence will show in the discovery of one or the other. For me the difference that jumps out is that one describes a scenario in the bottom of a canyon, and Waltz's "directions" imply somewhere higher up. If somebody found the mine/cache high in a canyon then found a cache hidden at the bottom then maybe you could surmise the 2 stories lead to the same location. So I'm sticking with different locations described in both accounts, that is if either one is accurate.

Not to bash your picture, so no disrespect is intended towards you, but I would consider that type of G.E. image more of a cut in the mountain rather than a canyon, due to the fact that it cuts the mountain top in two, runs down the mountain in several gullies and most likely empties into the wash at the base of the mountain which is then a canyon. That is the problem with G.E. you can't tell how steep that cut might actually be, or how tall the rock formations are on either side.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Mariius, I tend to agree with Eric. With G Earth , I cannot recognize the Tayopa complex even though I as famiiar with it as I am with my bathroom.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

There is no evidence that Dr. Thorne was ever assigned to a military installation. Without that, I am hard pressed to give the story, as it is told, much credence.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

There is no evidence that Dr. Thorne was ever assigned to a military installation. Without that, I am hard pressed to give the story, as it is told, much credence.

Take care,

Joe -Thorn did not reach his destination to become listed as an Army doctor, he was captured en route. How would he be listed if he had been captured on the way there, and after his release did not join the Army after all?

Do you hold that the STORY of Dr Thorn's lost mine does not predate the death of Jacob Waltz? The fact that the story was in circulation prior to Waltz's death, in fact at least as early as 1869 (I have older accounts but cannot locate them at the moment) and that he was hunting the Four Peaks-Superstition Mts area. We also have a documented Dr Abraham Thorn living in Limitar New Mexico, circa 1870; he is listed in an 1869 newspaper account, which does not go into great details but includes that he was then on an expedition to search for his lost mine and got turned back by friendly Indians. If this were not Dr Thorn then it was someone going by that name.

A quick search on Ancestry dot com turns up several Abraham Thorn's; one from Orange county NY, which NY state is listed on the 1870 census as the place of birth for Dr Thorn. He is listed in the US Army Draft rolls as living in Pennsylvania in 1863 and IS drafted that year. Then we have Abraham Thorn, mustered out in 1864 in Spotsylvania, VA, Enlisted in Company B, Pennsylvania 183rd Infantry Regiment on 09 Feb 1864.Mustered out on 10 May 1864 at Spotsylvania Court House, VA. Sources: History of Pennsylvania Volunteers, 1861-1866

Is it not possible that Thorn had been a soldier during the Civil War, and after the war became a doctor, headed west to start his trade? The story of his being an Army doctor at a fort (usually McDowell, but also Ft Reno) makes the story about his getting captured questionable, for an Army doctor at a post would almost always be surrounded by other soldiers. Would it not be much more difficult for hostile Apaches to capture a post doctor, than a doctor traveling through their country to get to a fort?

The fact that the Dr Thorn story predates Waltz, really should put to rest the idea that there is NOTHING prior to his death. We have in fact a story of a lost rich gold deposit, with Four Peaks as a landmark (one version includes Weavers Needle as well) and the very same spring named in the "trail" to the mine of Waltz. There are striking parallels or "coincidences" whether you give credence to the LDM or Dr Thorn, which realy point to the possibility that they are the same mine, and that it is truth. If you can't admit this, it could be a bit of denial on your part.

To all; As to the LDM being "on a mountain" while Thorn was in a canyon, do you not recall one of the more prominent clues for the LDM - that it is located in a "north trending canyon"? A canyon can run very high up on a mountain side, and thus fit with the Deering statement about having to go down to get to it, yet you must go high up as well. Also, Thorn was led to the site on horseback, the Weiser story has them with mules at the mine, and in the supposed attempt by Waltz to take his friends Julia and Reiney to the mine, they camped at the Verde river, and he told them they could be at the mine the next day. He told them to wear old clothes due to the brush, but nothing like climbing ropes or special boots for scampering up mountain cliffs. Thorn also said that the vein went up the sides of the canyon, not just in the very bottom of it. Now recall what we see in the Holmes version where he tells Dick Holmes that the ore vein crops out down in the canyon below the mine, and he covered that up. Even in the third, unpopular version of the Lost Dutchman, from the Pioneer Interviews, the mine is located in a side canyon. In the canyon are the key words, a place you could take mules into, which while the equine family is very off-road capable, they won't climb cliffs.

To point this up further, take a look at a map of the known gold mines and notice how many are IN CANYONS - there is a very good geological reason for this too, for the action of nature tends to erode away, crack and uplift the rock, exposing veins of quartz (and many other minerals) in canyons especially along the walls but also along the bottoms where the actions of water wearing down into the rock helps expose it. Not that a mine can't be anywhere, even on the very peak of a mountain, but it is quite common for such deposits to be found in canyons for nature helps man by exposing them there.

Thank you all again, I hope you have a very pleasant evening.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Somero]

Not to bash your picture, so no disrespect is intended towards you, but I would consider that type of G.E. image more of a cut in the mountain rather than a canyon, due to the fact that it cuts the mountain top in two, runs down the mountain in several gullies and most likely empties into the wash at the base of the mountain which is then a canyon. That is the problem with G.E. you can't tell how steep that cut might actually be, or how tall the rock formations are on either side.

Just to clarify, I did not say this is not a canyon, but when dealing with G.E images people should be aware it is not an accurate depiction. The image posted looks more like a fold or small cut in the mountainside so without actually viewing it while pulling cactus thorns from your hide you cannot tell how steep the slope is or how tall the sides are and if a 60+ year old man on a mule could climb it. The use of G.E. as a tool for locating things in the Superstitions is very deceiving for those that have never been there, it tends to make the terrain look like easy hiking, reality is veeeeerrrrryyyyyyy different.

To point this up further, take a look at a map of the known gold mines and notice how many are IN CANYONS - there is a very good geological reason for this too, for the action of nature tends to erode away, crack and uplift the rock, exposing veins of quartz (and many other minerals) in canyons especially along the walls but also along the bottoms where the actions of water wearing down into the rock helps expose it. Not that a mine can't be anywhere, even on the very peak of a mountain, but it is quite common for such deposits to be found in canyons for nature helps man by exposing them there.

I think this is pretty much a given, especially since the Superstitions are full of canyons, so at what point does a small cut in the mountain or a fold in a hill become a ravine? What I would call a cut might be a small canyon to others, much like the Grand Canyon could be called a Big Hole.

My other concern is the making of a thicker treasure stew without much meat in it. While I won't argue the fact that separate "accounts" could point to the same location we should be cautious in this approach and not mix facts together. Much like the same approach with a crime scene, you could find evidence similar at separate scenes, thus linking them but you cannot take evidence from one scene and place it at the other.

Like I stated before, you could make a case both are one and the same. However if you try to make this distinction you cannot mix clues together, they must be approached separately. If they are the same the evidence will show in the discovery of one or the other. For me the difference that jumps out is that one describes a scenario in the bottom of a canyon, and Waltz's "directions" imply somewhere higher up. If somebody found the mine/cache high in a canyon then found a cache hidden at the bottom then maybe you could surmise the 2 stories lead to the same location.

I also have no problem admitting that my knowledge concerning either one of these stories is limited, but I also know you cannot mix stories together otherwise we could call Tayopa the Dutchman mine.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Eric, keep yer coffee hooks off of Tayopa, she is Mine, mine !!

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Somero]

Eric, keep yer coffee hooks off of Tayopa, she is Mine, mine !!

Don Jose de La Mancha

Morning Don Jose

Chonie coffee this morning, my own secret brew, very robust and a bit "nutty"

Even if all these "clues" and "mapas" lead down that way Tayopa is all yours, course I would be interested if your Beautiful mule has any friends

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hio Somero mi amgo: You posted <"I would be interested if your Beautiful mule has any friends

"

Being beautiful, loving, brilliant, a genius, similar to me, how can she not have ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Bookaroo]

cactusjumper:

According to Tales of the Superstitions by Robert Blair (Tempe, Arizona: 1975) Dr. A.D. Thorne of Lemitar, Socorro County, New Mexico Territory, worked for the US Army, treated wounded soldiers, and was abducted by Navajos in 1854 and during that time discovered a rich ledge of gold.

Blair provides considerable useful information on the Dr. Thorne story. To be fair to that author, I don't quote all his well-documented research here. It belongs to him and those interested should read his book and get his recitation of the facts.

Blair states the ubiquitous "Barry Storm" was the first writer to link the Dr. Thorne story to the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Finally, Blair mentions the role Capt. Corydon Cooley played in seeking the Dr. Thorne lode. I believe he spent his later years seeking the Lost Adams Diggings, but I'd like to check Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver to confirm it was the same Capt. Cooley.Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

pwp:

With all due respect, Prof. Dobie did not "write novels." I refer you to the introduction to Coronado's Children: "These tales are not creations of mine."

J. Frank Dobie was an internationally-recognized folklorist. And his books provide detailed documentation.

It would be very difficult to over-estimated his influence on many of the lost mine and buried treasure stories of the American West.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[markmar]

Somero

If I will post a true picture of the side canyon , the treasure hunting will become a treasure walking . I gave so much clues to the LDM in many threads , so a true treasure hunter could go blindfolded to the site .

 

[markmar]

Oroblanco

The quote about Apache Jack is from this source Dutchman's Lost Mine

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

and on my review of J. frank Dobie...yes, he did folk lore...an job for an anthropologist, or as dobie was ....a literature professor...

really book...i'd have thought you would have understood this...

dobie took myths, legends, ideas, and a fine detail to what sells, and wrote of the American ideal...go west young man and get rich...
noble savages and lost mines ....

 

[markmar]

Mariius, I tend to agree with Eric. With G Earth , I cannot recognize the Tayopa complex even though I as famiiar with it as I am with my bathroom.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose

The GE is like when you are somewhere in the middle of the night with full moon . You can't see details , but you can see trails and structures . Is a different feeling to traveling under moon light . All your senses are fully enabled . You become a beast .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

boy are you in for a surprise if you ever see the superstitions up close...

 

[Somero]

boy are you in for a surprise if you ever see the superstitions up close...

Or wander around them in the moonlight, an amazing sight, the Superstitions in the silvery chill of an Autumn light.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

markmar:

That LDM account is a remarkable combination of fact, fiction, legend, information from many sources of dubious worth, etc. And very short on documentation.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper:

According to Tales of the Superstitions by Robert Blair (Tempe, Arizona: 1975) Dr. A.D. Thorne of Lemitar, Socorro County, New Mexico Territory, worked for the US Army, treated wounded soldiers, and was abducted by Navajos in 1854 and during that time discovered a rich ledge of gold.

Blair provides considerable useful information on the Dr. Thorne story. To be fair to that author, I don't quote all his well-documented research here. It belongs to him and those interested should read his book and get his recitation of the facts.

Blair states the ubiquitous "Barry Storm" was the first writer to link the Dr. Thorne story to the Lost Dutchman Mine.

Finally, Blair mentions the role Capt. Corydon Cooley played in seeking the Dr. Thorne lode. I believe he spent his later years seeking the Lost Adams Diggings, but I'd like to check Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver to confirm it was the same Capt. Cooley.Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

OB,

Blair was who I was using as a source. His research was pretty good, conclusions.....so, so.

Have to agree with you on this one.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

markmar:

That LDM account is a remarkable combination of fact, fiction, legend, information from many sources of dubious worth, etc. And very short on documentation.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

Old Bookaroo

Maybe you are correct . But , who knows the truth ? If you can't neutralize these dubious sources with real proofs , just remain worth sources . From all the account , I took the Apache Jack story about the carved horse head and some LDM clues , because match with my investigation . A research , is created step by step , using the clues in the order which match better . Like a puzzle .
I like your comment about Doc Thorne lode and Lost Adams Diggings in relation with Capt. Corydon Cooley . Maybe put both closer each other .

 

[markmar]

The first picture with the " rampant horse head " which I posted in the early of this year , has 323 downloads . JackH , when sent with email the LDM account with the Apache Jack story , also wrote " There has been avatars in TreasureNet with the horse head rock of this subject." . Just I feel honored .