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Thread: Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

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  1. #16
    us
    May 2010
    texas
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Oroblanco View Post
    No one cares to list the clues that match the Pit mine?
    Howdy Roy,

    When I asked Jack's disciples if any of a short list of clues matched, I didn't get one yes on any of the clues. All they had were questions about the place, like why would a reporter from the 1800's carve his name on a log inside a dwelling close by? Like this would make it the LDM. Even if the name Jacob Waltz was carved there, that would not prove that he worked that mine.

    Who in their right mind they wonder, would risk mining silver ore? Not Joe's boys, no, it had to be gold. Speculations, and assumptions is all you will get, maybe a whisper if you are lucky. Whispers that are only in one's head, just like speculations, and assumptions, can not make it the LDGM.

    Homar
    Last edited by coazon de oro; Nov 29, 2013 at 03:05 AM.
    Springfield, Oroblanco and markmar like this.

  2. #17
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    14,603
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    ya dropped yer beer somero.

    here is another.


    Don Jose d e La Mancha,
    Somero likes this.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  3. #18
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
    Garrett Groundhog-2012-1st MD. White's Goldmaster V/Sat-2nd-MD-2013 Tesoro Lobo-2015-3rd
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    Ill start with 3 clues Oro.
    But I think they belong to nothing or mean nothing.

    No miner will find my mine. ( miners look for float or minerals, or veins, they dont look for mines).

    No cowboy will find my mine. (cowboys look for lost cattle, or danger for the cattle). They dont look for mines either.

    My mine lies in a North South canyon or a tributary from one. I forget. ( 90% of canyons run North to south. 10 % run the east to West. These are just numbers to show a figure, not reality.) Just another lose end.

    These are just figures of speech to throw people off and dont mean a thing to me. In other wards, a prangster,or the Joker.

    Similier to this.

    (riddle me this, Riddle me that, you can not find my mine,unless you live like a rat).

    I will go read the part from the holmes manuscrpt that says Waltz was a joker, or some thing to that effect and post it.
    cactusjumper and Oroblanco like this.

  4. #19
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner View Post
    Ill start with 3 clues Oro.
    But I think they belong to nothing or mean nothing.

    No miner will find my mine. ...

    No cowboy will find my mine. ...
    I always found these statements troubling and a bit annoying. In the first place, they might be looked at as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - "Oh, well, he said we couldn't find it and we haven't." On the other hand, if it didn't exist, then it sure won't be found.

    Also, it begs the question: if no miner can find it, then how did Waltz find it? Or, if he stole it from Mexicans, how did they find it?
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  5. #20
    um
    Nemo me impune lacesset

    Jan 2005
    DAKOTA TERRITORY
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    Thank you Roadrunner - I was thinking of trying to present the case for the Pit mine myself <if no one else would> which I do not feel comfortable doing, as I am not convinced that it is the LDM plus I sure do not know all the clues which allegedly fit.

    Springfield have to agree with you in part as well, though I think such clues as those were the kind of things Waltz said in saloons or in public, intended to tease the listeners with infuriating type info. In other words something which might well be true, yet is of little or no use to help find the mine - like being able to see the military trail from the mine but not see the mine from the trail.

    Please do continue,
    Oroblanco
    Last edited by Oroblanco; Nov 29, 2013 at 09:07 PM. Reason: clarify sentence
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  6. #21
    us
    Sep 2012
    Apache Junction
    85
    113 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield View Post
    .

    Also, it begs the question: if no miner can find it, then how did Waltz find it? Or, if he stole it from Mexicans, how did they find it?
    Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!
    Last edited by vastterrain; Nov 29, 2013 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #22
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
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    1303 times
    Quote Originally Posted by vastterrain View Post
    Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!
    That's the sort of detail that would definitely enhance and help rationalize the legend, wouldn't it?
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  8. #23

    Feb 2004
    Mesa Arizona
    1,999
    2855 times
    Roy it would make sense that Waltz would search in a mineralized area of the mountain rather than a barren area. He was a prospector.

  9. #24
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
    Garrett Groundhog-2012-1st MD. White's Goldmaster V/Sat-2nd-MD-2013 Tesoro Lobo-2015-3rd
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    Prospecting
    That is another one Oro.
    If I where on a mountain, I could easily see a trail,road,wash,buggy track,2 track,mule track,ect.
    But yet on this same track or trail or wash,I could never see a 2 foot square opening,behind a bush,on a mountain. Even if out in the open, it could look like a shadow.
    Another riddle to confuse and tease.

    Although it would suggest as to how close you should be to see it. Or high enough.
    Last edited by roadrunner; Nov 29, 2013 at 10:54 PM.

  10. #25
    us
    Jan 2012
    Pinal Mountains,Arizona
    Garrett Groundhog-2012-1st MD. White's Goldmaster V/Sat-2nd-MD-2013 Tesoro Lobo-2015-3rd
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    515 times
    Prospecting
    Yup,exactly as I suggested. No mine can be seen in that pic.
    But,I bet I can see the wash down towards the lower right in the pic that is not showing.
    But from the wash,I could not see anything.
    I will go there shortly and find it.

    But, in that pic I would say the center of the pic where the little clump of boulders is, or below center,just above the brush line where the other set of boulders are. Or the right hand side of both of these boulder spots.
    But good point. A person could be standing close to a mine, and not see it.

  11. #26
    ca
    May 2007
    3,071
    3502 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by vastterrain View Post
    Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!
    While I'm sure things like that happened, especially in Waltz's day, I tend towards the "Waltz hears miners breaking rock and jumps their claim" version as a good one. That the "mine" itself was shaped like a funnel....(looking down into it) , and like an hourglass... (cross section), with one chamber above the other, should also be considered IMO. The inclined tunnel which was supposed to intersect the "mine" itself should be there as well, at least partly blocked up with rocks as per Waltz's description. If the "mine" (that which he said he covered with ironwood logs and dirt) is also located on a steeply sloping ledge on a box canyon wall, it would also make sense that the miners may have thrown the ore down to the bottom for further reduction.....(breaking rock). If so, there may still be evidence of this operation and possibly some gold to be found there. This detail might also fit the Doc Thorne description.

    Would you be up to checking this out? Go to the very end of the "box" where we were watching the coyote in the cave. You will see a sloping ledge going down from right to left, from the top almost to the bottom. The ledge ends below and to the right of the "teepee" mark. From the "camp" with the old ironwoods you may be able to see some letters above the ledge, about halfway down. Might be worth checking out the area below the lower end of that ledge. But I doubt you'll want to do the ledge itself....
    Last edited by somehiker; Nov 29, 2013 at 11:56 PM.
    Hal Croves likes this.
    Hell,you ain't never too old to look!

  12. #27
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
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    Here's another photograph taken from the ridge top just above looking down towards where the pit mine is located... Wish I had had time to fight my way down through the brush to it, but had to get out and catch a plane. Hard to believe that was 5 years ago already!! Man, I need to move to AZ.

    It still amazes me to look at a photo like this because unless you experience trying to move around in that sort of environment, it looks like it should just be a casual stroll down through some brush to the location down below. Unfortunately, when you're there and really try it, you literally have to fight for every 10 feet in some cases. It can take hours to get somewhere you'd swear you could have thrown a rock to!!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  13. #28

    Dec 2005
    Arizona
    7,622
    4863 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Cubfan64 View Post
    Here's another photograph taken from the ridge top just above looking down towards where the pit mine is located... Wish I had had time to fight my way down through the brush to it, but had to get out and catch a plane. Hard to believe that was 5 years ago already!! Man, I need to move to AZ.

    It still amazes me to look at a photo like this because unless you experience trying to move around in that sort of environment, it looks like it should just be a casual stroll down through some brush to the location down below. Unfortunately, when you're there and really try it, you literally have to fight for every 10 feet in some cases. It can take hours to get somewhere you'd swear you could have thrown a rock to!!

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	906828
    Paul,

    As I have said before......When XXXXX finally broke free of the brush surrounding the Pit Mine, he almost fell into the shaft. Eventually he returned to the site and went into the mine. It had been cleaned out. You have all seen the pictures he took inside.

    It still remains a possibility that Waltz's mine was actually a cache, left there by someone else. He took what he needed and was afraid to do more. Who knew when the original owners might return. Who knows why it was left there, and never recovered by those who left it there. Death is the most obvious answer.

    All of the "clues" attributed to Jacob Waltz are suspect. I believe most of them were created to cause total confusion and lead people away from the truth, much like what some of people who post on these sites are still doing today.

    In any case, I wish you the best in what you are seeking. "Let the search become your destination"......or something like that.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Last edited by cactusjumper; Apr 13, 2015 at 02:02 PM.

  14. #29
    us
    Feb 2006
    New Hampshire - USA
    Fisher CZ21, Teknetics T2 & Minelab Sovereign GT
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusjumper View Post
    Paul,

    As I have said before......When Dave finally broke free of the brush surrounding the Pit Mine, he almost fell into the shaft. Eventually he returned to the site and went into the mine. It had been cleaned out. You have all seen the pictures he took inside.

    It still remains a possibility that Waltz's mine was actually a cache, left there by someone else. He took what he needed and was afraid to do more. Who knew when the original owners might return. Who knows why it was left there, and never recovered by those who left it there. Death is the most obvious answer.

    All of the "clues" attributed to Jacob Waltz are suspect. I believe most of them were created to cause total confusion and lead people away from the truth, much like what some of people who post on these sites are still doing today.

    In any case, I wish you the best in what you are seeking. "Let the search become your destination"......or something like that.

    Take care,

    Joe
    Joe, my gut tells me the pit mine isn't/wasn't the LDM, but I wonder if it's the "adventurer" in me that wants to believe that. That said, there's nothing in what you posted that I can reasonably argue against, and some that answers a few questions about Waltz's sources of gold.

    I'll keep going out there and looking, but I honestly haven't ever really been looking for the LDM - sometimes I wonder what I'm actually looking for out there, and you're right, that maybe it's just the search . I can't think of a better place to search - I feel like a kid again when I'm out there, and who knows, maybe... just maybe, there's still going to be something over that next rise... or over the next one... or....

    I think all of you here know what I mean.
    "There is no getting away from a treasure that once fastens upon your mind" - Joseph Conrad (Nostromo)

  15. #30
    mx
    Nov 2004
    Alamos,Sonora,Mexico
    14,603
    11735 times
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    Cubber, may you never grow up !! Never lose that dream.,of course it must be modified to meet actualities, but remember "Treasure Island is just over that way, beyond the blue horizon.

    Without dreams, Man is just another ant.

    Don jose de La Mancha
    Somero, Cubfan64 and cactusjumper like this.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

 

 
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