Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

Bill, before we grab handcuffs and call for the gendarmes, we do not know that any crime was even committed. Exactly what charges would you like to bring against the people who worked in that old mine? Trespass maybe? They could have been "rockhounding" and at that time, the rules were a limit of either 150 pounds of rock per person per year, or 200 pounds/year. Now that rule has been tightened to the point that anyone hiking through the Superstitions should wear Teflon shoes because the dirt sticking to the tread is more than is allowed to remove.

Secondly, even IF they were committing FELONIES by mining out some gold ore, or removing ore from a cache (which does not fall under Treasure Trove by the way, as it is not refined/smelted metals) there is such a thing as a Statute of Limitations. In other words, if seven years have passed and they certainly have, then NO charges can even be filed because it has exceeded the statute of limitations. If you doubt me on this, look it up for yourself, the AZ law is 13-107. Murder, rape, misappropriation of public funds and a few other crimes are not covered by any statute of limitations in Arizona, but you see based on what information we have, we could not even press charges IF crimes were even committed. On the other hand, if you are thinking to press Federal charges for something that happens on Federal lands, the statute of limitations is FIVE years. Check it for yourself, the Federal law is 18 U.S.C. § 3282. So lets not start getting worked up and making charges of crimes against people for events that we certainly did not witness and really only know of anything by second hand. Seems like you have a real bone to pick with these fellows for some reason. Do you think that gold they got, was the only gold there is left to find?

Just my OPINION, but I believe that there are several lost mines in the Superstitions and adjacent regions. I do not believe that Apache Jack's gold in black quartz was the same as the LDM, nor Wagoner's rose quartz gold. Then there is the odd placer on top of a mesa, where they were separating the gold from the dirt by winnowing it, tossing it on a blanket in the wind so the air would remove the lighter stuff. As far as I know, no one has ever reported finding a rich gold placer on top of a mesa in the Superstitions YET. If we broaden our search area a bit, we can add in the Black Maverick, Lost Pick and a half dozen others including also at least one silver mine which apparently no one is interested in looking for. There are clear indications of silver and silver minerals along the south edge of the Wilderness area too. Then there is the gold found by Silverlock and Malm, I see no reason to conclude that had to come from the LDM either, nor that the mine which produced that gold is close to the spot where the pile and rotted pack saddle were found. Finding a lost mine is not easy and takes a fair dose of luck, but those who never look for one will absolutely never find one. So even if the Pit mine was the LDM and I am far from convinced that it is, (I would accept that it is the lost Peralta mine for obvious reasons) you see there are a number of others that one could search for, especially if you are willing to look outside the Wilderness boundaries.

Rogers canyon is today inside the Wilderness but I do not think it was always, and by the terms of the Wilderness Act, really IMHO it never should have been included. All known mineralized lands were supposed to be excluded from Wilderness Areas, which is why they have had to do a geological study for any area they wish to make into a new 'wilderness' area.

Not Peralta, that is very nice ore or at least it certainly looks like excellent ore in the photos. If you could bear to cut them into slices and make them into matchboxes, tie pins, cuff links etc I have no doubt that you would stand to make quite a profit on it. My compliments on your finding those specimens, they look great!

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[EarnieP]

More of that long winded but possibly interesting (to some) reading;

'Easing the Tension Between Statutes of Limitations and the Continuing Offense Doctrine'
by Jeffrey R. Boles

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1088&context=njlsp

Ex. "A prototypical example of a continuing offense is the possession of contraband."

"The offense begins when the perpetrator acquires the contraband item and continues
every day, until the perpetrator parts with the item. The crime qualifies as a continuing offense because the ongoing course of conduct, possession of the item, causes harm every moment that the perpetrator possesses the item..." (from pg 229)

Ex. "B. Applying the Statute of Limitations to Continuing Offenses: An Overview."

"Whether a crime is continuous or not affects the operation of the statute of
limitations. Ordinarily, the limitations period commences when a crime is committed and
“complete,” regardless of whether the government has discovered the existence of the crime. As a general rule, a crime is “complete” as soon as every element of the crime has occurred."

"An exception from the general rule is the continuing offense, which is not deemed
complete until the perpetrator’s entire course of conduct ceases.
For continuing offenses, the last act of the offense controls when the statute of limitations commences.
Accordingly, the statute does not begin to run when all of the elements of the continuing
offense are initially present, rather when the entire course of conduct ceases."

"For all practical purposes, courts look to the last day of the continuing offense to determine when the statute of limitations commenced. For instance, a court will look to the last day on which a perpetrator possessed an illegal firearm to determine when the statute of limitations began to run for a firearms possession offense."

"In effect, the continuing offense doctrine extends the statute of limitations beyond its stated term, allowing the government to prosecute conduct that precedes the stated limitations period."
--------------

Never assume statute of limitations have expired, prosecutors may think differently.
The ongoing possession of a few souvenir nuggets, matchbox, or ring of illegally mined ore could constitute a Continuing Offense that delays the commencement of the Statute of Limitations.
Just a thought.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just to reinforce that earlier statement about gold being found in silver mines, note this mention of a group of mines (claims) being sold in 1906, quote

Pinal County, Superstition
This group of mines in the Rogers district is reported sold for $8,000 cash. Ore taken from the property shows both native silver and native gold

Mining American Vol 54, pp 552, Nov 29, 1906

a description from the report of the director of the Mint:

Rogers district
This district is gradually developing the rich promise a year ago.

The Chloride King - The owners of this mine have contracted to sink No 1, 100 feet deeper which will give the shaft a total depth of 130 feet. The contractors have accepted as a consideration for their the ore taken out in sinking a fact showing that they consider ore very valuable. The pay streak is 14 inches wide at the bottom the present shaft and averages $300 per ton. It is reputed that the streak will widen out to 2 feet at a depth of 50 feet as a 50 foot sunk on an extension of the mine shows at the bottom that width pay streak.

The World Beater is a mine of chloride and carbonate ores and has fair 5 foot vein in the tunnel and both shafts. The work consists of 32 foot shaft a 20 foot tunnel and a 50 foot shaft. The ore is beautiful and rich assaying frequently $1,300 per ton.

The Manhattan is a continuation of the same lead to the north are two lodes in fact coming together on this ground. It belongs the company who own the World Beater.

The Silver Chief is another mine of this company. It has a shaft of 40 feet another of 70 feet and a tunnel connecting below of 230 feet, ore is splendid the assay value is said to be from $60 to $1,300 ton. It is generally a carbonate and there is also galena. A drift 18 feet long which from the bottom of the shaft shows 2 feet of very rich metal is in white quartz. The Silver Chief looks better now than has done before.

The Johnny Crapeau belongs to the same company It has abundance magnetic iron.

The ores of the World Beater, Manhattan, Silver Chief, and Johnny are sent to the new smelter recently erected by Donahue & Co the bullion from which will run from $700 to $1,000 silver per ton and 90 per cent in lead. They can work about 3 tons day yielding about $1,500 in bullion at a cost of $40 per day.

The Goodenough, the Maybell, the Snowbird, the Brown, and the Dickens are valuable locations on this ridge, the latter having a shaft 85 feet deep with carbonate of lead ore running 45 per cent lead and $18 in silver. The Selma has a 15 foot shaft ore being carbonate of lead and galena and assaying $520 to $600 per ton silver .

The Plato has about the same amount of work as the Selma, the ore being carbonate copper and silver and assaying $516 per ton.

On the Robin mine assessment work has been done. The shaft is 90 feet from the bottom of which they have drifted 35 feet on a streak 2 feet wide. There are 30 tons of ore on the dump.

On the Snapp mine the owners struck 3 feet of good rock in the tunnel. The tunnel is 80 feet long and strikes the vein about 120 feet below the surface croppings. The ore is principally carbonate, and has the of high grade ore.

The Monarch has two shafts, one 100 feet and one 45 feet deep. The ore is of the same character as that found in the other mines on this lode. Assays of the ore give $400.

The Sky Blue lies west of the Snapp and has created much interest account of its highly colored blue ores.

It is proposed to work the mines of this neighborhood which are near river by pumping water by steam to the ground

Report of the Director of the Mint Upon the Production of the Precious Metals, 1884
pp 92-93

If you search the old newspaper archives you can find quite a few reports on the Pine Grove/Rogers/Randolph and sometimes even called Pioneer district, and generally referring to the rich silver ores the district was famous for. But it was known to find gold in these silver mines, as was published in the report of the sale of a group of mines there in 1906.

Now do we know the precise locations of ALL of these mines named? This is only some of the documented mines in that district BTW.

 

[Azquester]

Bill, before we grab handcuffs and call for the gendarmes, we do not know that any crime was even committed. Exactly what charges would you like to bring against the people who worked in that old mine? Trespass maybe? They could have been "rockhounding" and at that time, the rules were a limit of either 150 pounds of rock per person per year, or 200 pounds/year. Now that rule has been tightened to the point that anyone hiking through the Superstitions should wear Teflon shoes because the dirt sticking to the tread is more than is allowed to remove.

Secondly, even IF they were committing FELONIES by mining out some gold ore, or removing ore from a cache (which does not fall under Treasure Trove by the way, as it is not refined/smelted metals) there is such a thing as a Statute of Limitations. In other words, if seven years have passed and they certainly have, then NO charges can even be filed because it has exceeded the statute of limitations. If you doubt me on this, look it up for yourself, the AZ law is 13-107. Murder, rape, misappropriation of public funds and a few other crimes are not covered by any statute of limitations in Arizona, but you see based on what information we have, we could not even press charges IF crimes were even committed. On the other hand, if you are thinking to press Federal charges for something that happens on Federal lands, the statute of limitations is FIVE years. Check it for yourself, the Federal law is 18 U.S.C. § 3282. So lets not start getting worked up and making charges of crimes against people for events that we certainly did not witness and really only know of anything by second hand. Seems like you have a real bone to pick with these fellows for some reason. Do you think that gold they got, was the only gold there is left to find?

Just my OPINION, but I believe that there are several lost mines in the Superstitions and adjacent regions. I do not believe that Apache Jack's gold in black quartz was the same as the LDM, nor Wagoner's rose quartz gold. Then there is the odd placer on top of a mesa, where they were separating the gold from the dirt by winnowing it, tossing it on a blanket in the wind so the air would remove the lighter stuff. As far as I know, no one has ever reported finding a rich gold placer on top of a mesa in the Superstitions YET. If we broaden our search area a bit, we can add in the Black Maverick, Lost Pick and a half dozen others including also at least one silver mine which apparently no one is interested in looking for. There are clear indications of silver and silver minerals along the south edge of the Wilderness area too. Then there is the gold found by Silverlock and Malm, I see no reason to conclude that had to come from the LDM either, nor that the mine which produced that gold is close to the spot where the pile and rotted pack saddle were found. Finding a lost mine is not easy and takes a fair dose of luck, but those who never look for one will absolutely never find one. So even if the Pit mine was the LDM and I am far from convinced that it is, (I would accept that it is the lost Peralta mine for obvious reasons) you see there are a number of others that one could search for, especially if you are willing to look outside the Wilderness boundaries.

Rogers canyon is today inside the Wilderness but I do not think it was always, and by the terms of the Wilderness Act, really IMHO it never should have been included. All known mineralized lands were supposed to be excluded from Wilderness Areas, which is why they have had to do a geological study for any area they wish to make into a new 'wilderness' area.

Not Peralta, that is very nice ore or at least it certainly looks like excellent ore in the photos. If you could bear to cut them into slices and make them into matchboxes, tie pins, cuff links etc I have no doubt that you would stand to make quite a profit on it. My compliments on your finding those specimens, they look great!

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

If no charges are immanent then where's the Book? You're right that area has no business being in a wilderness it's crazy. I only found a lost prospect once that was included in a map of the Iron Door Mine. It had never been found and was important for finding the lost and collapsed mine entrance with a tailing pile as rich as the Dutchman ore. After almost dying up there at 8000 plus feet during a freak ice storm I've never been back for a look. We were close though just interrupted by a damn young Forest Service agent walking his Poodles looking for his wife that had been tracking mountain Lion's back in there!

Finding lost mines is hard especially if it's been lost for centuries. I'm just saying the tourist aspect of the real Dutchman Mine would be worth Billions over the course of a few decades of tours and sample Ore's. You don't think the Gobberment wouldn't say screw the wilderness and build a road and gift shop up at the Pit Mine if it was the real McCoy? Those Idiots only want our land for themselves so they can sell it later to some foreign country to help pay off our debt they made while printing money for paying their pensions on tax payers backs.

 

[sdcfia]

Could it be forces of those that worked the mine behind the scenes attempting to prove it's the Silver Chief for cover after the early 90's crime?

Stealing the Gold is one thing, stealing history is another, stealing lives from those still looking for something that's already been found and dying trying is negligent homicide after the fact. Not to mention it belongs to the general public domain. I hope they saved all that gold for fighting future litigation. Anyone that's died since then it's on their shoulders. Come clean now and may the good Lord forgive you. Better dump that cursed ore by just giving it to me for safe keeping and I'll have it cleansed of all that bad Ju Ju!

Better yet give it all to the Superstition Mountain Museum for display. If it was from someone else's mining claim it's a crime also. If it was on Wilderness you're going to put in Gitmo.

History? What history? Whose history? Take your pick, or write a new history. Manipulate as necessary to match your needs.

Stealing lives? I believe those unfortunates who died looking for gold in the Superstitions made their own decisions to be there. They are responsible for the consequences of their choices, poor or not. Blaming other alleged successful Superstition gold seekers for those deaths is like blaming surviving Everest mountaineers for the deaths of the 250 climbers who have died on the big mountain. If you need to blame someone else for Dutch hunters' deaths, how about Waltz and the army of folks who have promoted the legend the last hundred years?

 

[Azquester]

History? What history? Whose history? Take your pick, or write a new history. Manipulate as necessary to match your needs.

Stealing lives? I believe those unfortunates who died looking for gold in the Superstitions made their own decisions to be there. They are responsible for the consequences of their choices, poor or not. Blaming other alleged successful Superstition gold seekers for those deaths is like blaming surviving Everest mountaineers for the deaths of the 250 climbers who have died on the big mountain. If you need to blame someone else for Dutch hunters' deaths, how about Waltz and the army of folks who have promoted the legend the last hundred years?

Ahhhh Haaa! I see...at least now we know who two of the original diggers of the Pit mine are!

I just knew I could flush one more out some how!

Thanks for that info...

Please since you both have nothing to lose now by the statues being gone tell us more about your adventure and how you mastered getting all that gold out with out being seen! Brilliant my friend Brilliant!

Show us some ore we love that stuff!!

You and Not Peralta were the ones!!

Great job guys congrats!!

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"The Silver Chief is another mine of this company. It has a shaft of 40 feet another of 70 feet and a tunnel connecting below of 230 feet, ore is splendid the assay value is said to be from $60 to $1,300 ton. It is generally a carbonate and there is also galena. A drift 18 feet long which from the bottom of the shaft shows 2 feet of very rich metal is in white quartz. The Silver Chief looks better now than has done before."

Does this sound like what we have shown of the Pit Mine?

I recently received a book which I don't remember ordering. Did you have anything to do with that? If so, many thanks as I am enjoying reading it.

Very nice post. You always do your homework.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Ahhhh Haaa! I see...at least now we know who two of the original diggers of the Pit mine are!

I just knew I could flush one more out some how!

Thanks for that info...

Please since you both have nothing to lose now by the statues being gone tell us more about your adventure and how you mastered getting all that gold out with out being seen! Brilliant my friend Brilliant!

Show us some ore we love that stuff!!

You and Not Peralta were the ones!!

Great job guys congrats!![/QUOTE Amigo, haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa, maybe the joke is on you,this is the second time on TN I have posted these picks, the first time I give the location,and whatever info someone may want, and these photo's were taken years ago.the date is on the picks,you have to go were gold and silver are found together, not were you want it to be,have a good day,np

 

[Ponchosportal]

The last Pit Mine excavation simply proved it was neither JWs cache nor the LDM. Someone thought it was but nothing was found.

 

[azdave35]

Roy,

"The Silver Chief is another mine of this company. It has a shaft of 40 feet another of 70 feet and a tunnel connecting below of 230 feet, ore is splendid the assay value is said to be from $60 to $1,300 ton. It is generally a carbonate and there is also galena. A drift 18 feet long which from the bottom of the shaft shows 2 feet of very rich metal is in white quartz. The Silver Chief looks better now than has done before."

Does this sound like what we have shown of the Pit Mine?

I recently received a book which I don't remember ordering. Did you have anything to do with that? If so, many thanks as I am enjoying reading it.

Very nice post. You always do your homework.

Take care,

Joe

joe..something to think about when researching production output of old mines....when they say $60-$1300 per ton you have to consider the price of silver was about a dollar an ounce....so if they are talking silver it would be approx. 60-1300 ounce per ton..and if they were talking $60-$1300 per ton in gold it would be approx. 3-65 oz per ton...that would have been a very rich mine..sometimes when they list the monetary output of an old mine it is in combined precious metals so the $60-$1300 would be gold and silver combined...nowadays you could run a poor boy operation and make money on 1/2 opt....pretty good money too......that gives you an idea of how rich that mine would have been back then

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

If I took the richest ore sample I could find, I imagine it would assay out at bonanza ore numbers. I believe that Waltz only saved the best samples he could find. If someone were trying to buy someone's mine I seriously doubt they would pick the same kind of samples to be assayed.

Perhaps we should ask Matthew's, named, one of the most knowledgeable miners his opinion. On the other hand, we probably should just ask you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

If I took the richest ore sample I could find, I imagine it would assay out at bonanza ore numbers. I believe that Waltz only saved the best samples he could find. If someone were trying to buy someone's mine I seriously doubt they would pick the same kind of samples to be assayed.

Perhaps we should ask Matthew's, named, one of the most knowledgeable miners his opinion. On the other hand, we probably should just ask you.

Take care,

Joe

joe...i'm with you on waltz...no way he carried barren rock out of the hills...he sorted it right on the spot and took the gravy....the old timers called it hand cobbing...i knew an old guy that hit a pocket back in the early 70's...there were no roads to the area so he had to walk in.....he took a few primitive tools with him (hammer,chisel pliers etc) and after he removed the ore from the pocket he would sit down onsite and go to work busting as much quartz off as he could so he was carrying mostly gold out on his back...as far as assay's go if they are done correctly they can give you a fairly accurate idea of what the ore runs....you have to take samples from the entire ore body..not just the hot spots and then mix them...an assayer will run the crushed ore through a splitter before he runs assays and then do dozens of assays and try to get an average that way..a skilled assayer is worth his weight in gold....on the other hand a lazy assayer will cause nothing but trouble for you.....every ore is a little different and you must adjust your flux according to the ore...when you send your ore off to be assayed they aren't going to waste time trying to work up a flux for your ore..they have a house flux (general purpose) that works ok on most common quartz ores..in other words if you just have quartz and gold or silver with no other minerals it will work just fine ..but throw in some copper,,,sulfides..chlorides...large amounts of lead just to name a few and that house flux isn't going to give accurate results..and like you said ...if someone is trying to sell a mine they arent going to average the entire vein...they just assay the hot spots and show them to the potential buyer

 

[sdcfia]

...if someone is trying to sell a mine they arent going to average the entire vein...they just assay the hot spots and show them to the potential buyer

Well, buyer beware. You can have visible gold in your mine and still go broke. You can also sample yourself into a losing venture. Many have. When you sample your discovery, you have to sample not only a good average measure of the vein material itself, but also the entire work face in which the vein is to be worked (often barren country rock). Whether you are following the vein horizontally, vertically or on an incline, you will have to remove all the barren rock which encases your vein in order to collect the pay dirt. Let's say your gold vein material alone runs 12 ounces per ton - very nice - but is only 6 inches wide in the middle and pinches down to zero a foot on both sides. Is your ore really 12 oz/ton ($15,000 ore)? No.

If your drift or shaft is a small, efficient one - say 5' high x 4' wide - then you are removing 20 cu ft of rock to collect 1/2 cu ft of ore. That translates to 0.5/20 = 2.5% of the rock you remove being ore. That puts the true value of your ore at 12 oz/ton x 0.025 = 0.30 oz/ton ($375 ore). Depending on the circumstances of your operation, you could theoretically lose money before this vein quit.

Let's say the vein is a foot thick and the full 4 feet wide. That's 4/20 = 20% efficiency. Now the ore is 2.4 oz/ton ($3,000 ore). This now should be a rich mine. All you need is a foot wide, 12 ounce pay streak across the entire face of your drift and you're in business.

 

[azdave35]

Well, buyer beware. You can have visible gold in your mine and still go broke. You can also sample yourself into a losing venture. Many have. When you sample your discovery, you have to sample not only a good average measure of the vein material itself, but also the entire work face in which the vein is to be worked (often barren country rock). Whether you are following the vein horizontally, vertically or on an incline, you will have to remove all the barren rock which encases your vein in order to collect the pay dirt. Let's say your gold vein material alone runs 12 ounces per ton - very nice - but is only 6 inches wide in the middle and pinches down to zero a foot on both sides. Is your ore really 12 oz/ton ($15,000 ore)? No.

If your drift or shaft is a small, efficient one - say 5' high x 4' wide - then you are removing 20 cu ft of rock to collect 1/2 cu ft of ore. That translates to 0.5/20 = 2.5% of the rock you remove being ore. That puts the true value of your ore at 12 oz/ton x 0.025 = 0.30 oz/ton ($375 ore). Depending on the circumstances of your operation, you could theoretically lose money before this vein quit.

Let's say the vein is a foot thick and the full 4 feet wide. That's 4/20 = 20% efficiency. Now the ore is 2.4 oz/ton ($3,000 ore). This now should be a rich mine. All you need is a foot wide, 12 ounce pay streak across the entire face of your drift and you're in business.

very true...around here in arizona the people that usually buy mines are people from other states or countries..most of them will never do anything with the mine...some have big plans and when they find out how much work is involved they are done...or some buy mines to launder money..a friend of mine is currently developing a property....4 ft wide quartz vein that runs along the surface up the hillside...the quartz runs 1/4 to 1/2 opt and the gangue runs 1/2 to 1 opt...the quartz comes up through the schist and the schist carries as much gold as the quartz (the schist that is close to the quartz) all free milling but his biggest battle isnt working the mine...its the red tape of the blm

 

[sdcfia]

very true...around here in arizona the people that usually buy mines are people from other states or countries..most of them will never do anything with the mine...some have big plans and when they find out how much work is involved they are done...or some buy mines to launder money..a friend of mine is currently developing a property....4 ft wide quartz vein that runs along the surface up the hillside...the quartz runs 1/4 to 1/2 opt and the gangue runs 1/2 to 1 opt...the quartz comes up through the schist and the schist carries as much gold as the quartz (the schist that is close to the quartz) all free milling but his biggest battle isnt working the mine...its the red tape of the blm

Yeah, the permitting can take lots of time and cost lots of money. Probably need a performance bond too. Of course, then you have the cost of mining - sounds like surface trenching at first, but things get pricey when you have to go underground. Equipment is expensive to buy/rent and maintain. If you're hiring experienced manpower to do the work, get ready to pay good wages plus the usual taxes and insurance. Fuel costs, daily expenses, etc = more $$. Surface reclamation requirements? More $$. Oh, and where are you going to process the ore? Haul costs can add up real fast, not to mention the mill charge. Gonna process the ore yourself instead? This takes money too, and expertise. What's your own time worth? Most operators can't afford to cut a check to themselves. Hope there's a profit after all the bills are paid.

 

[azdave35]

Yeah, the permitting can take lots of time and cost lots of money. Probably need a performance bond too. Of course, then you have the cost of mining - sounds like surface trenching at first, but things get pricey when you have to go underground. Equipment is expensive to buy/rent and maintain. If you're hiring experienced manpower to do the work, get ready to pay good wages plus the usual taxes and insurance. Fuel costs, daily expenses, etc = more $$. Surface reclamation requirements? More $$. Oh, and where are you going to process the ore? Haul costs can add up real fast, not to mention the mill charge. Gonna process the ore yourself instead? This takes money too, and expertise. What's your own time worth? Most operators can't afford to cut a check to themselves. Hope there's a profit after all the bills are paid.

yep...16k in bonds so far..he has a trailer mounted mill so he processes ore onsite..the man has been hardrock mining surface and underground since the early 70's so i think he has a good shot at making it but you are correct it has been and will continue to be an uphill battle...he is probably the best i've ever seen at locating ore veins..this was not an existing mine....he located this vein by prospecting and has developed it almost entirely by himself...if he doesnt have a problem with me posting a few pics i will..i will need his permission first

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Az, I just thoroughly mixed the ore samples, then quartered it for my assay sample, keeping a sample of the asayed ore for future reference Flux workup is another thing, since I was very isolated, I had to use local materiel, using a previous known sample to estabish the error. You'd be surprised how much os "De RE Metalica" I had to use as a reference . Plus, I had my Perkin - Elmer Atomic adbsorbtion meter whch I had to overhaul and cslibrate as a separate reference point.

 

[Azquester]

yep...16k in bonds so far..he has a trailer mounted mill so he processes ore onsite..the man has been hardrock mining surface and underground since the early 70's so i think he has a good shot at making it but you are correct it has been and will continue to be an uphill battle...he is probably the best i've ever seen at locating ore veins..this was not an existing mine....he located this vein by prospecting and has developed it almost entirely by himself...if he doesnt have a problem with me posting a few pics i will..i will need his permission first

The one I did required a strong Reclamation Plan, Site Plan, Protected Plants + Animal Species Study, Erosional Predictions Hydraulic Study, Reclamation Restoration of any roads built to the site with plants replanted estimating how many would be flattened or destroyed, Chemicals Used for any drilling, Amount of Water and how many acre feet used, Water sources, Drill Hole Cuttings and hole plugs used with how many when done, a full Mining Business Plan with projected profits, Every Type of Equipment used and what oils they had in them in case of leaks, Environmental Impact Study, MSHA Training, Assayers and Ground electronics, and many other small things I can't think of right now they imposed on me when the approval was going on. Also, you could not mine each year or even go to the site until the plans were approved for the next year and they stalled this process so bad it took away three months out of each year you could be on site doing what ever.

It wasn't an easy five years. The plans take so much time you have no time left for mining. If you do it alone more power to you I did it and would never do it again by myself.

 

[sdcfia]

The one I did required a strong Reclamation Plan, Site Plan, Protected Plants + Animal Species Study, Erosional Predictions Hydraulic Study, Reclamation Restoration of any roads built to the site with plants replanted estimating how many would be flattened or destroyed, Chemicals Used for any drilling, Amount of Water and how many acre feet used, Water sources, Drill Hole Cuttings and hole plugs used with how many when done, a full Mining Business Plan with projected profits, Every Type of Equipment used and what oils they had in them in case of leaks, Environmental Impact Study, MSHA Training, Assayers and Ground electronics, and many other small things I can't think of right now they imposed on me when the approval was going on. Also, you could not mine each year or even go to the site until the plans were approved for the next year and they stalled this process so bad it took away three months out of each year you could be on site doing what ever.

It wasn't an easy five years. The plans take so much time you have no time left for mining. If you do it alone more power to you I did it and would never do it again by myself.

That's a good illustration of why mom n' pop mining and exploration died in the US back in the 1970s or so. Whatever mining remains in North America is high volume-low value large corporate surface operations. That's why all the high-grade underground action shifted to Mexico and South America - they're "mining friendly", as they say. Plus there's still a lot of ore to be found down there. There's still a few stalwarts stubborn enough to keep trying it in the US - like azdave35's pal. However, unless you have killer ore, it's pretty much a fool's errand nowadays, although a small guy can do OK with Alaskan placer if he wants to go remote. I know an old guy who has a decent-sized native silver discovery located on FS land in the Burro Mountains a few miles south of Silver City - requiring only surface trenching, mind you - that he gave up on because of the red tape and uncertainty. The game has mostly ended.