Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Not Peralta]

Amigo, thanks,For you.np

 

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[EarnieP]

What crimes are you accusing these miners of having committed? Removing rock? Did you witness any illegal activities? I did not. We have NO idea who or whom left behind the junk etc. Let us not start making accusations okay? What is it really that you wish them to be punished for? Would you like someone to be trying to make legal troubles for you, if you had some success treasure hunting? Can you see why treasure hunters don't want to talk about their successes, when there are people that just want to make trouble for them?

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"Why are you accusing me of accusing, your accusation is inaccurate."

Oro, you have completely misread my intention, I am not the least bit interested in seeing anyone "punished" for anything. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am only giving a friendly heads-up link to anyone who might be interested, to some of the realities of the Statute of Limitations.

Don't let paranoia blind you to the fact that not all hands coming at you are hostile, some are actually reaching out in friendship.

Take care friend,
EarnieP

[Edited for clarity (and brevity).]

 

[Old]

What is the legacy of the Pit Mine and other pre-Anglo mines of the area such as Roger’s Spring? Do they take their place as rightful sites of National Historic important? Sites rich in history and artifacts with much to teach as to men who give their labor and often their lives in an unforgiving land. Or; do they fade from memory as sites exploited, lied about, and forgotten? Those are the true questions that stand unanswered.

Were these sites the same or in the vicinity of the late 1800s mines depicted on the several maps. Most definitely they were. We have conflicting maps all attributed to the same map maker. Two shown here, I have another which I can not show due to copyright issues. All similar but slightly different. Did the map maker change his opinion of location over time? It would appear so. Matters little. It’s the same area, with the same mineral deposits. That’s really all that matters.

This is not a simple story. It’s a very complicated story that cannot be explained away in the manner and style of the metaphor of someone urinating on your pants leg and telling you it’s raining. If you want to accept the rain story, be my guest. Life will be much less complicated for you. If, however, what really happened matters to you, the quest to bring these sites to their full potential as living history will go on.

Some of the same people who want to tell you “its raining” deny the significance of all of this. They want to discredit any such assertions. They will tell you nothing of the sort existed. I know better. In the case of Roger’s Spring I have the archeology reports in hand. I have the reports that deem this site suitable for National Historic designation. Has it happened? No, and the question is WHY?

Within those reports are letters where high level government personnel allowed historic timbers to be discarded because it was, in their words, “just a spring”. That justification of destruction of historic material disregards stacks of documentation and diagrams that show those artifacts were proof positive of Spanish/Mexican origin. Gone! Gone to the landfill and not to the history books. Sad.

If you want to follow the lore and legend of the Peralta digs you need look no further than these sites. This is where it happened. Did it also happen west of here? Quite possibly. But we know it happened here. What part of that is mislabeled as “Peralta” and is in reality a conglomeration of adventurers from Mexico into the Northern territory matters little. Its all part and parcel of the same basic story. That expansion did happen. It happened whether the government wants you to know it or not.

My personal opinion is this area should NEVER have been included in the Wilderness boundaries. Why it was included was wrong from the get go. Protected yes, but for totally different reasons.

You will get all manner of “yeah, but” reasons to forget about what these sites mean. Not the least of which include expansion and re-exploration over centuries. Is that not a story worth saving in and of itself? What a teaching opportunity that would be to be able to document and show those stages as they progressed.

What happened here didn’t happen in a vacuum. Whether you want to classify the active participants as modern day Robin Hoods or hold them in much less esteem, they had help. High level, well placed, help.

What did they take? Gold, silver, artifacts, nothing? We will probably never know. But those are not the priceless treasure. The story and legacy of the land and the men who came to tame it, Native, Spanish, Mexican and Anglo, are the real treasure. That’s what was taken from these sites. The spring site was reclaimed in a much more fitting manner. The Pit Mine, on the other hand, was littered and scarred. If you believe that’s worthy of framing the perpetrators as loveable Robin Hood characters I have to disagree.

Over time nature will take its course and will heal the scars to the land. The loss of the history however, is irreplaceable.

 

[EarnieP]

I like your point of view, Old, and I understand your historical prospective.
But on the other hand, I've always been a fan of Robin Hood.

 

[Oroblanco]

Paranoia? Perhaps I did misread your intended point, as it was posted right after I had posted about a Statute of Limitations which would almost certainly mean any "crimes" committed, can no longer be prosecuted.

Old, what makes a PRE-Anglo mine worth protection as a 'historical monument'? Are not the Anglo mines just as important, historically, perhaps even more so? On the other hand, the mine still exists, you can hike up and look at it now, it is rather difficult to erase mines but of course our USFS has been doing it, including dynamiting shut mine tunnels to keep people out. This also means that the mines can no longer be used by bats, mountain lions, bears etc as habitat.

For that matter, what exactly makes the Pit mine a Pre-Anglo mine? The timbers? People still use rough timbers, it is not possible to say that proves it is Mexican or Spanish, and mining technology has not much changed over the centuries in that aspect. In fact the fact that you see timbers inside the Pit mine, actually make it more likely that it is an Anglo mine, for most Mexican and Spanish mines had very little, if any timbering. Not a matter of being lazy, just economics and somewhat less concern about safety of mine workers.

Of course I am quite biased, being a treasure hunter and prospector, but I would like to see what makes this Pit mine SO historically significant, that it should be preserved as some kind of national monument, beyond the fact that it already IS protected by law. And what makes it a pre-Anglo mine for that matter. I suspect that perhaps people are assigning a much higher value for tourists to look at old mines, than is warranted? There are in fact, old mines which are set up for tourists to come look at, photograph, ride ore carts down inside, even in some cases, buy small ore specimens. One example is an underground coal mine in Scranton PA. It is very definitely an historic mine, and coal really built the cities there. Yet very few visitors are interested in visiting the mine and the city considers shutting it down annually. Here in SD, we have the historic Homestake mine, the largest gold producer in US history, and they have tours of the mine. It does not get anywhere near the level of interest that nearby Deadwood does, for all the notoriety and gambling seems to have a stronger magnetic pull for tourists. This may not seem fair, but not that many people are that interested in old mines, as I have heard tourists say, "it is just a hole in the ground". And we already have a number of old 'historic' mines available for tourists to view - why do we need more? Thanks in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Last part first, no the book did not come from me, which proves you have many friends and now will have to guess which one sent the gift!

The first part, yes it does to me, especially when you consider that description you are citing, was written in 1884, long before the mine was abandoned. I have been looking for a later description as I have seen one which is very close to what has been described as the Pit mine. I have an earlier description as well, which only states that it looks "promising" and "much work" is being done, with no explanation about what work they were starting to do. Like most mining camps, work proceeded in fits and starts, with stops and gaps too. The main pit shaft is now well over 100 feet deep, and Waltz's mine was not supposed to be more than a dozen feet deep at most. This would mean either someone else found it and mined out a LOT of ore, or they are not one and the same. But what would I know, I have never even visited the Pit mine or Silver Chief. As it is, I only get a limited amount of time to spend in AZ per year, and have other things to spend it on, than a rather difficult hike to try to make a point in an internet discussion. Besides, what ever I might say, would not be believed unless it is backed up by a published source.

EarnieP wrote


What crimes are you accusing these miners of having committed? Removing rock? Did you witness any illegal activities? I did not. We have NO idea who or whom left behind the junk etc. Let us not start making accusations okay? What is it really that you wish them to be punished for? Would you like someone to be trying to make legal troubles for you, if you had some success treasure hunting? Can you see why treasure hunters don't want to talk about their successes, when there are people that just want to make trouble for them?

I have some relevant tidbits on this topic, don't have the time to post them tonight and not intended to prove or disprove anything, just interesting for anyone that may have an interest in the Rogers/Randolph district and the Silver Chief mine.

Hi Roy,

Hope all is well with you and the family.

Jack San Felice has drawn a view of the inside of the Pit Mine on page 120 of "LOST EL DORADO OF JACOB WALTZ". In that drawing he shows the Pit Mine as being 70' deep from top to bottom, and 80' long for the tunnel. Although Jack answered my direct question that he "had not been in the mine" I can only assume that someone had described the inside of mine to him.

That does not sound like the historic description of the Silver Chief to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[jeff of pa]

OK I will try again, dont know why there's no like button.

there is No like Button to see on your Own Posts .
it is the same for Everyone.
You shouldn't be Liking your Own Posts anyway

If you don't see a like on Someone Else's post. Hit Refresh.

 

[EarnieP]

No problem Oro, I see now (since you pointed it out) that my previous post can easily be taken in a way not intended.
I should have been more clear, a bad habit I seem to often have with the written word.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

morning Jeff, he was referring to my not finding one on one of his posts that I liked,

 

[azdave35]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes,, One thing I want you to be aware of is the information that travels from assays, many assayers share information on assays, corporations and groups and individuals have been buying info for years on your assays, most cases they will get the info before you do, If you take good material in to have it assayed,and if the assay shows its really good, you can bet other people are aware of it before you are. Money talks, nothing is sacred. np

exactly np...that is why alot of us learned to do our own assay's...knowing what i know about assayer's i wouldn't trust any of them to do an honest assay..and they definitely do not keep your info confidential

 

[Not Peralta]

there is No like Button to see on your Own Posts .
it is the same for Everyone.
You shouldn't be Liking your Own Posts anyway

If you don't see a like on Someone Else's post. Hit Refresh.

thank you,I was only reporting what was told to me ,not trying to like my own post,again thank you.np

 

[Old]

Good day Oro,

My ideal outcome wouldn't be a tourist destination. It would be more in the form of documentation of what existed, who did it and when. Pictures and narrative in book form would be enough.

The actual site is probably too remote to attract a steady stream of tourist. I do think the area should be protected and it should receive its designation as a historic site. Those hardy enough to make the trip would be rewarded with at least a rest stop with a bronze plaque.

Why do you think I mourn the discarding of the timber? Keeping a four foot section for dating purposes and display in an exhibit wouldn't have required much in the way of cash outlay. It would have at least provided opportunity to validate the very questions you ask. I'm betting a graduate student (or two) at ASU would have given their eye teeth for the opportunity to work on such a project.

I don't need convincing. But it would have been convincing to skeptics.

But hey, remember I'm from Virginia. We are head over heels in love with history and treat it will reverence. At least we did. Times are changing, alas. The all too true joke around these parts is how many Virginians does it take to screw in a light blub. Answer: 5. One to screw in the blub and 4 to document the historic valve of the old blub. That's more truth than joke.

There are many people, especially in government affairs, that will say with a straight face that NO Spanish mining ever took place in the Wilderness area. That's just not true.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

he is too Jeff, he's a masochist, likes to suffer through a few of his own posts every so often. Now stuffing his cavernois tummy with fajitas.

 

[Not Peralta]

he is too Jeff, he's a masochist, likes to suffer through a few of his own posts every so often. Now stuffing his cavernois tummy with fajitas.

Yes, And they tasted sooooooooooooooo good,hmmmmmmmmmmm.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

Good day Oro,

My ideal outcome wouldn't be a tourist destination. It would be more in the form of documentation of what existed, who did it and when. Pictures and narrative in book form would be enough.

The actual site is probably too remote to attract a steady stream of tourist. I do think the area should be protected and it should receive its designation as a historic site. Those hardy enough to make the trip would be rewarded with at least a rest stop with a bronze plaque.

Why do you think I mourn the discarding of the timber? Keeping a four foot section for dating purposes and display in an exhibit wouldn't have required much in the way of cash outlay. It would have at least provided opportunity to validate the very questions you ask. I'm betting a graduate student (or two) at ASU would have given their eye teeth for the opportunity to work on such a project.

I don't need convincing. But it would have been convincing to skeptics.

But hey, remember I'm from Virginia. We are head over heels in love with history and treat it will reverence. At least we did. Times are changing, alas. The all too true joke around these parts is how many Virginians does it take to screw in a light blub. Answer: 5. One to screw in the blub and 4 to document the historic valve of the old blub. That's more truth than joke.

There are many people, especially in government affairs, that will say with a straight face that NO Spanish mining ever took place in the Wilderness area. That's just not true.

Lynda.

I am also a lover of history. In this case, the history is all speculation. It seems unlikely that it will ever amount to more than that. My own speculation/story, is built on very thin hard evidence. In truth, I have always felt like I was being used by others to further their own agendas. People who came into my home and accepted our hospitality were here to gather information for people who wanted to destroy my reputation. They overplayed their hands, exposing their duplicity. It's an old game in the Dutch Hunting Community, something I was warned about early on.

The currents run deep and fast around the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[audigger53]

I was using PCV back in 1968. I would say in the late 50's to early 60's when it started to be used a lot.

 

[EarnieP]

"History is not was, it is."
William Faulkner

What better example than the Pit Mine?

 

[audigger53]

I am also a lover of history. In this case, the history is all speculation. It seems unlikely that it will ever amount to more than that. My own speculation/story, is built on very thin hard evidence. In truth, I have always felt like I was being used by others to further their own agendas. People who came into my home and accepted our hospitality were here to gather information for people who wanted to destroy my reputation. They overplayed their hands, exposing their duplicity. It's an old game in the Dutch Hunting Community, something I was warned about early on.

The currents run deep and fast around the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Never had people come up to me for details on LDM. I have posted on it about the Peralta's , and The Massacre Grounds. Also about the old State rest area and marker about "Where the Dutchman left the stage to go to his mine." A lot of people were upset about my statements, instead of using them to increase their knowledge about the Peraltas and the 2 Dutchmen, 3 if you count Waggoner. Oh, well.

 

[Azquester]

Just got back from my first trip too the Pit Mine right this minute. Some photo's to follow. It was a fairly hot day but the wind helped. I thought I saw Frank Augustine leaving while driving up sure looked like him in a white jeep.

I have tons of photo's too process! It wasn't as bad a trip as I thought though! Being that I have no idea where it's at and had no clue how the trail went, or where it originally was, I thought I did quite well. The Manzanita bush and cats claw was horrible tore my arms up a bit. Trail's so over grown I was blocked at every turn! I still made it in a least a third or half the way by using an old Indian Trail trick!


I had my Privy Probe for the Dutchman Dookie!



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[Azquester]

Joe, Remember the Map you showed with weavers needle you thought was from Willow Spring that Waltz made? The Map that Waltz drew matches the other side of the Needle Too!! Another clue matching the Pit Mine!

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